Facts about tax

[SHOOTALL]

The numbers don't lie and the liars don't like em shown. We have a nation of producers and parasites. Sad thing is, is the parasite side has grown large enough to vote themselves into power.

Thing about parasites is they multiply and over take the enviroment killing off everything else then die because there is nothing left to live off of.

[billy_56081]

These parasites first start complaining about the rich (hosts) hiding their money. When things get really bad they will be calling those who have prepared hoarders.

[rickt300]

We are in a recession because loans were given that were not secure and housing cost were inflated . So you had loans on homes that people could not make payments and the cost of the loan was more than the value of the house it was on. I say this because many home builders had rules like any extra was a min of a thousand dollars even if it was changing paint color or up grading a faucet that cost the builder 75 dollars. As proof I offer that in one day new houses dropped in price over $50,000.00 in many areas . How much would intrest be on $50,000.00 over 30 years ?
Then add a war on terror . The systen was over stressed and inflated .
Add that no corrective measure other than increasing debt , govt dependcy and union pay back. Taxes can"t do anything but go higher .

.
 I see! ...sooooo, you're talking about the real parasites...the one's that are killing the system. The ones still running finance capitalism bleeding off the system.
.
..TM7

Yeah Franks, Dodd and Clinton really put the screws to us along with the millions of non taxpayers.

[Cabin4]

TM, The bottom 50% earners are killing the system and so is the huge federal government over spending. There is no tax revenue argument to be made on the merits here. The numbers just dont add up for you.

[SHOOTALL]

We are in a recession because loans were given that were not secure and housing cost were inflated . So you had loans on homes that people could not make payments and the cost of the loan was more than the value of the house it was on. I say this because many home builders had rules like any extra was a min of a thousand dollars even if it was changing paint color or up grading a faucet that cost the builder 75 dollars. As proof I offer that in one day new houses dropped in price over $50,000.00 in many areas . How much would intrest be on $50,000.00 over 30 years ?
Then add a war on terror . The systen was over stressed and inflated .
Add that no corrective measure other than increasing debt , govt dependcy and union pay back. Taxes can"t do anything but go higher .

.
 I see! ...sooooo, you're talking about the real parasites...the one's that are killing the system. The ones still running finance capitalism bleeding off the system.
.
..TM7

In some cases that can be true but you paint with a wide brush when it is not all. Can you blame builders for inflating cost when they see banks lending to people not able to pay ? knowing the house would be back on the market and take business from them . Or banks forced to make the loans ? Rick300 hit it on the head.

[billy_56081]

Exactly Cabin! These same money parasites will be the ones who expect a ration of the food I stored.

[SHOOTALL]

TM-7 its fair to say both sides have those who cheat or take advantage of the system . Most liberals just won't admit their side has more .

[rickt300]

Liberals / Leftists seldom admit anything, it is all about diverting from the subject or shooting the messenger. Amazingly I think they do it without thinking or even noticing the tactic they use. Sort of like a gradeschool kid covering for himself.

[rickt300]

The Glass-Steagall act was indeed repealed with the passing of the Gramm-Leach-Bliliey act in 1999 and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton. Gramm, leach and Bliley were indeed republicans and believe it or not our politicians worked together and passed the bill 90-8 in the Senate and 362-57 in the House. I submit the stink of this is on both parties.

[Dixie Dude]

The only fair tax is a VAT tax or sales tax.  Everyone pays, individuals, corporations, rich, etc.  You could eliminate it on food from grocery stores but not from restaurants (poor don't have to eat out).  Otherwise, maybe tax imported goods at a higher rate, thus helping domestic manufacturing.  Some purchases for necessities might not be taxed, but anything else should be. 
 
Eliminate the EPA and let business or industry be sued if they polute off their property. 
 
Eliminate the Education department since people are not smarter.
 
Eliminate the Energy department since we import more since it started than before. 
 
Eliminate the Commerce department since they haven't helped commerce.
 
Eliminate the IRS since the taxes would be greatly simplified with the VAT tax.
 
Eliminate Obamacare, have realistic health care reform, not a bunch of mandates. 
 
Have term limits on congressmen, and senators.  Have a 9 year limit on supreme court justices with one new one each year. 
 
Eliminate the Federal Reserve and go back to the gold standard with gold or silver certificates. 
 
 

[rickt300]

Outstanding post Dixie Dude!

[Cabin4]

We are in a recession because loans were given that were not secure and housing cost were inflated . So you had loans on homes that people could not make payments and the cost of the loan was more than the value of the house it was on. I say this because many home builders had rules like any extra was a min of a thousand dollars even if it was changing paint color or up grading a faucet that cost the builder 75 dollars. As proof I offer that in one day new houses dropped in price over $50,000.00 in many areas . How much would intrest be on $50,000.00 over 30 years ?
Then add a war on terror . The systen was over stressed and inflated .
Add that no corrective measure other than increasing debt , govt dependcy and union pay back. Taxes can"t do anything but go higher .

.
 I see! ...sooooo, you're talking about the real parasites...the one's that are killing the system. The ones still running finance capitalism bleeding off the system.
.
..TM7

In some cases that can be true but you paint with a wide brush when it is not all. Can you blame builders for inflating cost when they see banks lending to people not able to pay ? knowing the house would be back on the market and take business from them . Or banks forced to make the loans ? Rick300 hit it on the head.

Cabin's data reveals an inequality in the system is the  rule....Real middle class has declined and underclass grown...his data proves it!  Rick330 doesn't mention repal of Glass-Steagl as marshaled by GOPer Phil Gram...one of the key entry points for syetm parasitization, nor does he mention that Securites and Fraud control under GOPer presidencies was nill.   For me it is both parties responsible for the pilfering of the system by a large crimnal syndicate...You decribe the spread of infection. Blaming the underclass is a smoke screen to enable robbing more and more....they want it all!
Will you enable them, or fight them off...?
.
.
.
.
.....TM7

 
TM, How can you say that? The bottom 50% pay almost nothing. The middle class are paying 27%. The highest income earners which include those 1%-ers you Occupy Wall Street crowd love to hate are paying 71%. So your argument is bizare at best and removed from the mathimatical facts.
 
If you want to discuss corp tax, lets do that. But best to stop mixing it up with individual income/tax payers. The numbers just dont support your argument no matter how much you try and tell as that 1+1 does not equal 2.
 
Top 1% earners pay 37% of the federal income tax
Top 1.1% to 5% pay 22% of the income tax
Top 5.1% to 10% pay 12% of the income tax
So that means that the top 10% pay for 71% of all federal income tax.
The middle, those in the 11% to 50% pay 27%
The bottom 50% only pay 2%

 
 

[SHOOTALL]

So we can assume the 50% not paying into the system has no effect on the system ? Even though they are a cost that adds no value back into the system. can we assume that you feel the producers are not working hard enough to support thos not producing ?

[Cabin4]

I hate to tell TM, but comparing the tax structure of 40-50 years ago to today is off base. We don't have that manufacturing base/economy any more and our corp tax structure is partially to blame. There are so may other macro economic issues at play when we talk about corp tax. I can tell you with 30 years of global corp experience in manufacturing that this countries tax structure is a key critical factor in offshore those jobs. I'm living this as I write this post. We either off shore and stay in business or go out of business.
 
As jobs off shore, the tax revenue impacts shift and you guys want those making the most to pay yet more of the tax pie. The problem with that theory is, in our non-manufacturing service economy, those in the high brackets are truly the ones creating the US service jobs. So in a Service Economy, you need the high income earners to have the cash to spend and let that dispurse into the economy. If they pay more in tax, there will be less money from the private sector service economy and therefore directly fewer private jobs that are serving a purpose.
 
I think you have to ask yourself: What is your goal here? Is all about so called "tax fairness" debate or  is it about creating an environment for "more jobs" or is it about "paying down the debt?. What is the problem you want to solve? Then talk about/debate solution options.
 
When it comes to individual income, the structure is lopsided to the high side. And until you can recognize this all it seems your doing is avoiding the problems.
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall,,,ever try to get blood from a stone..?nope but if you don't want stones then quit bring them home and stock piling them by making it profitable to do so.
.
 C4...I think we might agree in a way...Current tax scheme does facilitate offshoring because it is a Finance Capitalistic tax scheme as is socialized 'falt tax'....i.e. rewarding making money from money!...A Production Capitalistic tax scheme enhances production by rewarding producers of real goods....this is the tax scheme we saw for most of the country's history and during the heyday of industrial development. It might occur to you that Finance Capitalism makes money from money,,,, actually making money from nothing; and it always is at the expense of domestic Production Capitalism.  In essence it is how you create poverty and implode the system...and really is parasitic
.
..TM7.
.
...TM7

[Cuts Crooked]

The U.S. had 5778 warplanes in total inventory as of 2004. I seriously doubt that we have added much to that number. even if we have doubled the number since then we can't come close to the figure claimed above

However a short list from inventories during WWII

         - 15678 P47 Thunderbolts
         - 15000 P51 Mustangs
         - 10000 P38 Lightnings
         - 3970 B29 Bombers
         -13738 P40 War Hawks
         - 7885 Grumman F4F Wildcats
I'm not gonna try to go any further and hunt up the numbers for Corsairs, Liberators, Marauders......the list goes on and that's just the U.S.. If we start on inventories of the other combatants, we'll run out of space here. 

[Casull]

When we consider the total tax burden, never in the history of the USA has it been so good to be a wealthy family

 
 
Sorry tm7, but I'm going to have to call this one blatant BS.  For more than half the history of this country, there was NO income tax.  Let me repeat.  NO income tax.

[rickt300]

C4,,,take a few minutes and review the link in post#1.  Take a few minutes to understand the difference between Production Capitalism, formerly in effect; and Finance Capitalism now in effect.....You will see that the wealth class pays more taxes collectively BECAUSE they earn and keep more than ever before while there net effective tax rates are the lowest ever _ _equivalent to the middle class' net effective rates! Unheard of ever before. realize that the total tax burden (all taxes, fees, licenses, insurances, property tax, etc.) on citizens is regressive...as regressive as he!!.  Realize that % corporate tax to GDP is the lowest of any where in the world.  Realize that flat tax pundits are actually proposing a so-called 'socialized tax scheme' contray to basic Capital theory, and it just so happens to permit the wealth class to further consolidate wealth while diminshing the middle class, blaming the underclass; and to carry out their hegemous foreign wars. And spending and the underclass are the causes of our country's problems, while huge finance and banking criminals aren't indicted and still rule the roost...!!...Riiiight_ _don't think so...We have much more systemic problems.
All this crap has to stop.  Finally, Do realize that the most productive and happy times in the USA, those times that forum members like to wax about, were doing the high progressive tax eras, 30% unionized labor,,,,when Production Capitalism was actually facilitated within our borders.
.
..TM7

While there is some slim truth in your post TM7 for the most part you are wrong. Production capitalism ( what?) meaning I hope that manufacturing being facilitated within our borders moved out of the country because of those taxes, kickbacks to politicians, unionized labor and straight betrayal of America by leftists who want America to fail. The corporate tax rate percentage is far from being the lowest in the world or why else would businesses go to the trouble of moving out of the country and dealing with shipping their product back into the country?

[Casull]

Ehhh Casull....Looks like the BS is in your mind, b/c what I wrote is just above your statement and is not what you interpolated.  In fact, specifically income from wages was never taxed

 
 
 
Ehhh . . . nice try tm7.  Why would you limit what I said to income from wages?  Income, period, was not taxed.  That is income from ALL sources.  The first several decades of this country saw government funded by taxes on tobacco and spirits.  And, as any thinking person understands, taxes on goods simply get passed on to the consumer.  Now, look at the tax burden on the "rich" (as well as everyone else) during the first half of this country's history and TRY to tell me that your statement was NOT BS.  Clearly, the rich (and middle class) were better off then than now.  Spin it any way you like, but the referenced claim was BS.

[rickt300]

When we consider the total tax burden, never in the history of the USA has it been so good to be a wealthy family

 
 
Sorry tm7, but I'm going to have to call this one blatant BS.  For more than half the history of this country, there was NO income tax.  Let me repeat.  NO income tax.

.
 Ehhh Casull....Looks like the BS is in your mind, b/c what I wrote is just above your statement and is not what you interpolated.  In fact, specifically income from wages was never taxed and is considered illegal to be taxed by some tax and Constitution experts. Taxing wages was one of the real big TAX SHIFTS in the history of this country, benefitting elites, of course. All funding for government was originally gotten from TARIFFS AND CORPORATE TYPE TAXES....perhaps we should return to that...or a tax scheme like China's!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

Rickt300....Production Capitalists moved out of this country because Finance Capitalist, now dominant, working with government traitors made it more profitable to move offshore.....that great sucking noise NAFTA, CODEX, CAFTA...you name it. Wall St is the de facto governmnet of the USA...making money from money is the name of the game (and taxed less as well)....that means offshoring industry, privatizing your birthrigtht, displacing indigenous labor with migrants, and generally selling Middle America down the sewer.  What I find amusing is that most of Middle America, especially those that fancy themselves as so-called conservatives, identify and idolize these pychopathic characters....like a mass Stockholm Syndrome.  For gripes sake they even have so-called conservative believing a socialized flat tax will benefit them.... ..and that perpetual war is right and normal!!...
.
.
...TM7

Your focus is too narrow, I said the stink of this is on both parties. Our present government is to blame no question about it.

[billy_56081]

Gol darnit Cuts, there ya go posting facts. Liars hate facts.

[Dixie Dude]

Government is always the problem.  Over regulation, over control, tax schemes to achieve someones utopian goals, or endless wars. 
 
Like I said taxing what is sold at the end will allow the producers flexibility and probably bring some back home.  Taxing imports also will help domestic producers create jobs. 
 
That being said, ALL taxes are ultimately paid by the people one way or another.  It is added on as a hidden cost to everything you buy. 
 
For instance I work in the natural gas industry.
 
Drillers find gas, they sell it to a transmission company.  They pay a tax on their profits.
 
The transmission company sells it to a distribution company or a city.  They pay tax on their profits.
 
The distribution company (local privately own gas company) sells it to the consumer (you or a business).  The distribution company pays tax on their profits. 
 
Say the corporate tax on these sales for each company is 32%.  The price to extract the gas has doubled just in tax alone from the wellhead. 
 
This is true for other industries as well.
 
Iron ore, limestone, and coal are mined to make steel.  These companies sell this to a steel mill.  The miners profit is taxed.
 
The steel mill puts all these together to make steel.  Say the steel is rolled into sheet metal.  They sell this to an auto company.  The steel mill is taxed.
 
The auto autocompany forms the steel into a car.  They sell the car to a dealer.  The auto company pays a tax on profits.
 
The dealer sells the car to you.  He pays taxes on his profits.
 
You then have to pay sales tax, liscense plate tax, etc. Oh, and cars and tires have a luxury tax added STILL because they once were luxurys 100 years ago, because it was a tax on the "rich".  Everything invented usually is acquired by the rich first, then as time goes on, we move up (once apon a time) in America and had to pay these taxes.   
 
YOU ULTIMATELY PAY THE HIGHER PRICES BECAUSE OF TAXES ALL ALONG THE LINE. 
 
Same with gasoline, computers, everything.  This class warfare stuff of divide and conquer isn't American, it is Facism, plain and simple. 
 
Just like the Facists demonised Jews in the 1930's Germany.  Facists today are demonising Christians and Christian businesses like Chic-fil-a.  What a business owner does with this profits is his business.  Boycotts are people boycotting certain business, but when mayors of cities say they can't do business because of their religious beliefs, that is facism.  They wouldn't do that to a Muslim business because it would be "politically correct" yet they don't believe in gay marriage either.   What are they going to do, say they have to pay higher taxes to do business in their cities?