Author Topic: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.  (Read 749 times)

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Offline powderman

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Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« on: July 30, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/
 
 
F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report.    The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is “evenly matched” with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.
The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes “cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft,” according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes — problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.
The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event “with a very high mission success rate.” However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation – close-range, one-on-one combat – the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.
“We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn’t,” German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. “We were evenly matched. They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”
Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22′s capabilities are “overwhelming” when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot’s natural field of vision — mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane’s range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren’t able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.
“But as soon as you get to the merge…” Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, “in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects.”
In response to the report, a spokesperson for the Air Force, Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, told ABC News that one-on-one combat is only one way to evaluate an aircraft’s capabilities and said it’s not “necessarily the most relevant to every scenario.”
“The F-22 is conceived and employed as part of an integrated force that provides offensive capabilities that make close engagements far less likely while retaining the ability to handle close engagements in tandem with other fighters,” he said.
Air Force Gen. John Jumper, one of the few airmen to have flown both aircraft before he retired in 2005, said that year that it is difficult to compare the F-22 and the Eurofighter.
“They are different kinds of airplanes to start with,” he said, according to an Air Force Print News report. “It’s like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance.”
The F-22 “can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is,” Jumper said, referring to the F-22′s stealth and supercruise capabilities that are meant to allow the plane to sneak in to hostile territory undetected – an ability the non-stealth Eurofighter lacks.
As for where that contested airspace may be, the Air Force hasn’t said. But in April 2011 an executive for Lockheed Martin, the primary manufacturer of the F-22, told ABC News that the plane could “absolutely” find a home in quick strike missions against countries like Iran or North Korea. Over the weekend, the Air Force deployed a squadron of F-22s to Kadena Air Base in southern Japan just over 800 miles south of the North Korean border — a move that comes three months after an undisclosed number of the stealth jets were deployed to an allied base in the United Arab Emirates, some 200 miles from the Iranian mainland.
The F-22 is the single most expensive fighter jet in history at a total acquisition cost of an estimated $79 billion for 187 planes, meaning each plane costs approximately $420 million. Estimates for the Eurofighter Typhoon – the premier fighter for several allied countries including the U.K., Germany and Italy – put that plane at just under $200 million each, according to an April 2011 report by England’s Public Accounts Committee.
“[Red Flag was] a mission to get to know each other, the first contact by German Eurofighters in the continental U.S.,” Grune said of mock-fighting the F-22s. “We are not planning on facing each other in combat. We want to work together but it was a starter for us to work together. They were impressed, as we were impressed by them.”
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Offline clum sum

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 12:16:59 PM »
Not the fist time, the F4 was first made with no guns just rockets . Nothing to dogfight with.       
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 01:00:57 PM »
Tthe whole project was a waste of money. It solves no problems. All it did was enrich th aerospace company and related leeches.

Offline 1marty

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »
They over designed the plane to face challanges which did not exist. It's a great plane but probably over engineered and too expensive.

Offline Nuke41

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 02:12:04 PM »
 
 
It’s optimized for stealth and BVR engagements, I’m not surprised that it’s not top dog in a turning engagement.
 
 

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 03:02:05 PM »
The sopwith camel would probably meet our needs for a fighter just as well

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 12:18:12 AM »
Well, if it was up to me, the govt. would shut down Dept. of Education,Energy,all funding to the U.N. and foreign aid, and order 20 more of these baby's. I'd rather see my money go to well paid aircraft workers, training pilots, that later work for commercial airlines, oil workers for jet fuel, than to see it go to foreign aid or overpaid govt. worker, whose only job was created to shuffle papers back and forth. gypsyman
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Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 12:19:39 AM »
As a F-22 pilot said in an article I read about the plane, "If I have to get in a fur ball dogfight I have really screwed up.
GliderJohn

Offline Shu

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 12:41:57 AM »
With the advanced capabilities of the F-22 it has a huge advantage over any foriegn built plane.
It is entirely possible for it to avoid or take out any aerial advesary before it becomes a threat.
 
I think the defense industry says things in this article to scare up more funding.
 
By the way the F 35 is doing great in its sea trails. If it passes them, carrier flight decks will become so much safer. No cables or catapult launches to put sailors in danger.
 
 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 08:20:43 AM »
I'm very sorry we bought the F-35s.  The F-22 can shoot down seven F-15s at the same time, and they'll never even see it.  It's an awesome aircraft.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 08:35:43 AM »
It seems better to over build and include defenses for opposition not yet fielded than to play catch up.And what do we do with the guys who invent these things put them out to pasture or encourage them to improve what we have ?
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 08:37:07 AM »
Didn't the Navy want the F-35's for their vertical take-off and landing capability?  I think they will still take off horizonally to save fuel, but land vertical so they will not need to cables and tail hooks? 

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 10:24:42 AM »
Sounds to me like a good plane. All it needs to to have tactics developed that take advantage of it's capabilities. This has been true of every war plane ever made. I believe it was the Finns who thought the Brewster Buffalo was a fantastic fighting machine and used it to beat some of the best war plane the Soviets  fielded against them......and the ol Buff could barely get out of it's own way! :o
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Offline Shu

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 03:24:39 PM »
F22 and F35 both are great planes. They have no equal in the world. The Navy is buying the F35 for carrier use. No arresting cables needed no more sailors blown off flight decks etc.
I don't want to get into a debate over who is better Navy or Airforce. Both serve useful purposes and have a role in warfare.
F22 has oxygen problems, really don't know why some don't like the F35 it functions really well.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 10:41:16 PM »
It's useless above 50,000 feet.  It was built as a cheap export model and is inferior to many foreign fighters.  We should have just kept the F-16.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 01:04:40 AM »
The F16 does not land on carriers. The Navy does fly off of them. The Airforce doesn't. The capabilty of having 100 planes anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours is something the Airforce can't do. I have not seen the President threaten a foriegn power by moving an Airforce base off its coast.
 We speculate alot about air to air combat but in reality it is air to ground engagements. Once the surface to air stuff is suppressed it's troop support.
 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 01:55:45 AM »
The F-18 was fine.  The USAF doesn't need the F-35.  It was stupid to buy them.  I'm not sure why the Navy and Marines have planes.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 02:53:58 AM »
The F16 does not land on carriers. The Navy does fly off of them. The Airforce doesn't. The capabilty of having 100 planes anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours is something the Airforce can't do. I have not seen the President threaten a foriegn power by moving an Airforce base off its coast.
 We speculate alot about air to air combat but in reality it is air to ground engagements. Once the surface to air stuff is suppressed it's troop support.
No but they can have bombers most anywhere in a reasonable time  ;)  and they can get the presidents point across by the ton. :o
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 04:15:31 AM »
The F-22 is a good home defense fighter and a good attack fighter IF you have a forward air base in a friendly country.  Otherwise, when something happens in the world, the first thing a president asks is "where is our nearest carrier".  So, we need both.  I would think we need to close a lot of unnessary bases and build and operate more carriers.  We only have about 12 active supercarriers.  Several more in mothballs. 
 
There are some smaller carriers for helicopters and Harriers for ground support, but the F-35 is to replace all the old Harriers and the older F-18 Hornets.  From what I read the Navy is keeping the F-18 Super Hornets for their heavier armament capability.  The Air Force is getting the F-22's to replace the F-15's and the F-35's to replace the F-16's.  I do think we should keep the older planes in mothballs or give them to the Air National Guards once replaced. 

Offline Shu

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Re: Our F-22 loses BIG $ advantage in dogfights.
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2012, 05:40:46 AM »
Not trying to start a Navy vs Airforce bunch of crap. The Navy and Marine Corps have planes becuase the Airforce can not always support them. A carrier group can get the point across daily and even hourly.
In reality a nice composite of all services works best.
 
The Marine Corps has always had its own Logistics and air support simply becuase they have been left high and dry before depending on non naval forces.
A carrier group can project sea power many miles farther than what the Airforce can. Also a carrier can provide a huge amount of relief in civil emergencies. The Aircraft carrier has a mobile hospital and can provide power for a city.
 
Simply put the F22 and F35 have no equals in the world both planes enjoy an 8-1 advantage in air to air combat. Both planes have updated logistic systems that can tell maintainers its maintenance schedules and which parts need replacements. Both planes have low signatures and advanced weaponary including target acquisition. 50 thousand feet is really nothing when 1 plane can drop 8 opponents before they have a clue they a clue there is another plane in the area.
 
The F16 and F18 are great planes but neither can hold its own against this next generation.
When you stop and think about air to air combat post Viet Nam era, how many dog fights have there actually been and who is doing the shooting?