Author Topic: Solids Or Soft Points For Grizzly Protection (Read 7018 times)

jambie · « **on:** August 03, 2012, 10:05:48 AM »

Hi all,
Been lurking around here for a while, but need some advice for last-ditch Grizzly/Brown bear protection while back-country camping in Montana:

In .416 Rigby, would you recommend the 400 gr. solids or soft points to stop a charging bear?

Not really looking for advice on suitability of caliber or advisability of carrying a rifle at all in bear country. I hit what I aim at with the .416, I just need some advice on whether a solid or soft point is better to ensure (not guarantee) a one-shot stop.

Cheers,
Tom

fatercat · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:32:15 AM »

nosler partition. does both better than anything else. period. end of story.

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:48:59 AM »

Considering all indications are for jacketed bullets, fatercat has VERY likely made a great call.

Not loading or shooting this caliber, so I'm not really up on availability of components, but the Nosler Partition or Swift A-frame would get er done.

Both will expand enough to give great shock, but will hold together to keep driving.

For such possibilities as bear stopage, forget higher velocity and go with heavier bullets.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

jambie · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2012, 11:12:43 AM »

Well, I've got a supply of Hornady Dangerous Game factory ammunition in both the 400 gr. solid and the 400 gr. soft point, and I've reloaded the solids, so maybe I should have asked which of these would be more suitable.

The factory Nosler ammunition is outrageously priced, but I could get those bullets and load them myself. That being said, I'd like to use either of what I've got, particularly since the rifle's sighted in for those...Any more votes for the Nosler?

Cheers, and thanks for the replies,
Tom

pastorp · « **Reply #4 on:** August 05, 2012, 07:41:12 AM »

Use the soft points. The ones you have will be fine.

Regards,

Greg B. · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2012, 05:24:50 AM »

I have a Ruger Magnum rifle in 416 Rigby and I would use soft points. It will probably go right through a bear anyway.

Ranch13 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2012, 07:04:13 AM »

Soft points, but make sure there's powder burns on the hide and you got wounds that take plenty of stitches to sow up, and have a good lawyer on staff. The grizz is still protected in the lower 48, and there will be a major investigation about why you violated that bears rights...

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2012, 07:25:00 AM »

solids vs soft point is an old debate . One truth is the bullet has to get to a vital to stop a charge. Read brain or spine . The shooter needs to know where to place the bullet and it must go stright to the target even if bone is encountered. It's not like a pure hunting shot at a critter at rest or at least not aware of you. Your bullet is all that will stop your death so it best be the best you can afford.
So which bullet will go the stright and stop the bear ? The point is not going thru. its about going stright to the spine or brain and not be deflected . When you get to critters over the size of a white tail deer hydrostatic shock becomes lees important and a charging bear would proble be even less effected by it. So expansion is not as important as getting to the brain or spine. The Nosler bullet offers both and as long as it goes stright it would be good. That said which of the bullets the op mentioned would work the same ? If I were not hunting and using his bullets I think I would go with the solid.

BBF · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2012, 07:51:01 AM »

Would the legality of SP's vs solids matter to you?

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2012, 08:32:42 AM »

Well said Shootall.

I am reminded of the story about Larry Kelly, I believe the name is, the fellow that came out with the Magnaport barrel porting method.

Larry and his guide were hunting for griz/browns when one of the locals decided to spend some quality time with them in their cabin.

Well, Larry emptied his .44mag with jacketed soft points of some kind into the critter along with however many shots the guide also got off before the party ended.

During the clean up operations, it was found that NONE of Larry's shots penertrated beyond the fat layer under the skin. None,zero, zip of those shots made it to the boiler room. Hey folks, this was up close and personal, not at 1 or 200 yds.

Larry, who was North to hunt the big furry and tooth/claw equipped critters with his hand gun, then proceeded to, during the same hunt, take a good bear with the same gun that had failed during the home invasion.

The difference, the bullets. During the "hunt" part of the trip, he was loaded with Hard Cast bullets which totally made the difference.

I understand that we and the "O.P." are talking rifles in this post, but the point is, a bullet which lacks integrity, be it from a rifle or a handgun, is always a questionable choice at best.

Don't send a boy to do a man's work.

Some local friends were in Alaska 4 or so years ago to hunt browns. They were crusing between islands when they spoted a bear swimming. They arrived at the island ahead of the bear, got out of the boat and waited to see what would happen. The critter came out of the water mad, slapping the water and making a big fuss, then headed down the beach towards Arla, the guide and Andre who was unarmed - he said he won't do that again.

The bear came for them flat out while Arla emptied her .338 and the guide did the same with his .375.

Thankfully, the critter suffered from a high concentration of lead exposure and expired before reaching them. All extra ammo was in the boat. They said that won't happen again.

The bear was a huge OLD Boar, with absessed teeth and a major dose of attitude. He had one thought in mind, your on my island, I don't like you, your toast!

The point here is, you have no idea what the mood or condition is of a critter you may face, and there is no such a thing as a bullet which is too good when it is you or me.

As said, don't send a boy to do a man's work.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

45-70.gov · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2012, 09:43:09 AM »

without testing......solids
but the soft points might be better if testing proved they will stay together
does the solid have a meplat?

i only have a 375ruger and never saw a bear....so what do i know
i think i would choose the soft point with my gun and yours is bigger than mine
with a strait on charge......that solid might be the wat to go
maybe pick the first shot as a soft point..
.then follow up with solids if the first makes you the target of the charge

my solids and soft points are 300gr and have the same POI

BUGEYE · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2012, 10:17:49 AM »

I would go with lead hard-cast, but only because I like the looks of a lead bullet.
even in my 22s I don't care for copper washed bullets.

to you fellows with more experience, would hard cast be a compromise between soft-point and solid?

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2012, 11:16:40 AM »

Bugeye,

Another good question would be what about the typical but round nose full metal jacket "solid" and the hard cast WFN (wide flat nose) bullets of equal weight.

I have some idea of the effectiveness of the WFN bullet against game including elk - awesome - and providing the cast WFN bullet was not overly hard and prone to shattering would it not provide a better wound channel then a solid round nose, and nearly as long?

I know my 465gr WFN cast at 1600 - 1700fps gives a looooong and BIG wound channel waaay beyond what a person would expect from a non-expanding bullet. That is thanks to the WFN bullet profile.

Does a round nose solid just punch through? No meplat! If so, I'd sure put my money and life on a good WFN cast bullet.

I wonder if Veral Smith over on the LBT/Lead Bullet Technology area of this forum has done any testing in this area?

I know if push came to shove, I'd sure like to be loaded up with one of my bullets knowing it would leave a long AND ALSO BIG wound channel. and not just a little but long hole.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

bilmac · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2012, 11:50:07 AM »

I carried a 45-70 when I was in Alaska. I loaded it with hard cast bullets. These bullets penetrated so well that I never found a tree that would stop it. My reasoning was that a charge will require shooting at a head on presentation. I wanted a bullet that would travel from one end to the other if it could. Experts recommend that you should shoot at a shoulder rather than the head. Bullets can riccochet off the slopeing bone. A shoulder shot needs to break some pretty heavy bones.

As an aside if you watched the Sarah Palin reality show, there was an episode where she was practicing shooting at a running bear target with her new 12 ga. Did you notice that her shots went into the shoulder. The gun salesman praised her marksmanship. I bet a lot of guys who noticed where the group was thought "no that wasn't good.

AkMike1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2012, 03:20:13 PM »

Solids but only if the bear is wearing ballistic Kelvar!

A good softpoint for any other situation.

drdougrx · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2012, 03:10:21 AM »

First of all.....416 bullets are designed for penetration on big animals, so soft points are preferred. They have a much thicker jacket than lesser calibers. It would be advised to load the first and second and 3rd with SPs and the remainder with solids. The Partition would be a fine go to bullet. No...I haven't killed a raging griz. I have killed quite a few animals with the larger calibers and find that soft points do in fact penetrate quite well in the calibers for which they are designed.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:50:06 AM »

Darrell and Bilmac, I like y'alls answers. I have no experience with large calibers and never will, but I'd like to.
I like large flat noses on bullets, it just seems like it would cause more damage.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2012, 06:11:07 AM »

As long as they go deep enough and stright ( provided the shooter knows where to shoot ) they would work fine . But if the front of the bullet deforms and the course is altered away from the brain or spine when the critter is at bad breath range then it might be a bad choice.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2012, 06:14:54 AM »

Quote from: BBF on November 14, 2012, 07:51:01 AM

Would the legality of SP's vs solids matter to you?

why of course it would , but that was not mentioned by the OP was it ?
To be honest I would opt. for a 12 ga. loaded with dangerous game slugs or slugs made of heavi-shot ( which is what I carry while duck hunting where big bears are) . A 1 1/4 oz slug at a bit over 1300+ fps seems a good choice .

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2012, 06:27:28 AM »

drdougrx ----- makes a good point. In larger calibers, providing you pay attention to what your buying, the bullets are likely to have a greater level of integrity then the same make/model of bullet in a much smaller caliber.

Clearly he has had experience beyond what most of us have been able to enjoy. Give him that fact.

Now, just to make my next point clear, I am not speaking of 100 - 200 - 300 or likely even 50 or 75 yd shots, but those occasions where things have become up close and personal and likely a life is on the line.

Where no one has come back with an answer to my question of wound quality with a solid jacketed round nose, is it just a long hole with little damage or??? , I still must come down on what little I know and have seen first hand.

Provided there had been enough testing done to assure a hard cast WFN bullet is not overly hard and subject to shattering at the velocity used, I must come down with this bullet for one reason, and that is the great wound channel.

I want any big bad boy headed for me with negitive intent to suffer an major amount ot trama along with a long and wide wound channel. If the projectal does not create that type of wound channel, shot placement is much more critical.

So, we are back to the question ask earlier, just what type of wound channel does the Full Metal Jacket Round Nose leave behind?

I know the results of the heavy WFN cast bullet, and it is awesome.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2012, 06:44:44 AM »

It's not the size of the wound that will stop a charging critter you have to shut him down . To do that quick fast and in a hurry only one thing will do that more times than not . A shot that shuts the nervous system down. That would include a brain or spinal cord shot that makes it stop working. You can rip a wound channel from appitite to sewer thru. a critter but if you don't hit something that shuts him down all people will say is that beast killed the guy then went off and died. So if your big old round nose bullet will go deep enough and stright enough and you know where to place it , can make the shot and have time it will work . If not then it will not work.
The rub is the making the stopping shot with all hell breaking lose.

drdougrx · « **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2012, 02:57:13 AM »

Shootall is correct about "making a stopping shot with all hell breaking loose."

A solid will penetrate in hopefully a straight line and break everything in the process....but...may not cause any internal shock...that's why a well constructed soft point or "controlled Expansion" bullet is preferred. Even African guides suggest using stout soft points like the swift A frame or Nosler Partition or the mono bullets like the Barnes for cape buffalo medicine. There are some that also use solids as the last few rounds in the rifle in case there is the need to followup a shot at a bad angle on a fleeing animal.

However, a controlled expansion bullet will probably deliver shock and well as penetration...and...if all hell breaks loose....you want to stop the fight long enough to place more of whatever into the bruin. If it were me...I'd use partitions based on my experience with them...Just my opinion...everybody has one.....

BBF · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2012, 03:37:14 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on November 15, 2012, 06:14:54 AM

Quote from: BBF on November 14, 2012, 07:51:01 AM
Would the legality of SP's vs solids matter to you?

why of course it would , but that was not mentioned by the OP was it ?

Well there you go! That is why I asked the question. If solids are illegal then the answer is easy.

This is all going to play in Montana and I believe they mandate SP's

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2012, 04:51:22 AM »

If so and you wanted to use solid then one of the heavy target bullets might work well as the HP is there but very small and the jacket is stronger than soft point or hunting HP bullets. They are not recomended for hunting as they won't expand.

there is always a way ...........

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2012, 05:37:28 AM »

Shootall, Didn't know they made target bullets in 40 and 45 calibers.

Now, I am and have been a Nosler Partition lover for many years, and think they and the Swift are A-OK.

However, one thing the current crop of Professional African Guides are a bit short on is experience with good cast bullets - HEAVY w/WFN.

One of the writers went to Africa a number of years back, and the guides had all kinds of reservations about his use of a 45/70 w/cast bullets until they saw the results first hand.

No more questions, just awestruck at the results from a cartridge first used well over a hundred years ago.

Newer and better bullet designs/profiles/alloys make this into something other then a 1873 discussion.

If you folks will go to Garrett Cartridges Inc. and read some of Randy Garrett's info as per big bears and a 45/70 w/ WFN cast bullets, you can see conformation of what I've been trying to get across.

Randy will greatly enlighten you as per velocity and quality cast bullets.

Note that Randy also makes comments as to bullet profile and the problems with bolt actions as per feeding bullets with the most effective profile.

As per an earlier posts about needing to break down a nasty critter, NO QUESTION THERE, but if you can't believe my comments about a heavy hard cast WFN bullet being up to the task, you need to do a bit of research into the subject.

A properly cast WFN of the proper alloy is up to the task of breaking down any bear at any time and from any angle.

Check out the results on the big African buffalo. Do a search on Marlin Owner Forum or Cast Boolits Forum.

I didn't really believe some of the info myself, until I tried it for myself. It just seemed to good to be true to this old jacketed bullet loader/shooter/hunter. However, everything I have read about good WFN cast bullets in a good cast bullet caliber - bigger is better - is 100% true in spades!

You may never buy into using and casting your own bullets, but you own it to yourself to do a bit of research. It very likely will surprise you if not make you a convert.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Ranch13 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 16, 2012, 06:07:30 AM »

I can tell you from experience a 45 colt handgun loaded to standard levels with a swc can save you from a head on collison with death or serious injury.
Wondering as this thread was started last summer if the OP is one of the folks that made the news by sacrificing themselves as grizz food?

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #26 on:** November 16, 2012, 06:20:12 AM »

AND Ranch13, the WFN is even better then the SWC when it comes to wound channel.

In the cast bullet section of this forum, Veral Smith can provide us with much experience gained from his years of testing and mold design.

Do I just get the feel that Ranch13 is with holding an interesting story here?

Forgoodness sake man, don't leave us hanging!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** November 16, 2012, 09:02:48 AM »

Quote from: Darrell Davis on November 16, 2012, 05:37:28 AM

Shootall, Didn't know they made target bullets in 40 and 45 calibers. there are custom bullet makers that would make about anything

Now, I am and have been a Nosler Partition lover for many years, and think they and the Swift are A-OK.I like the Nosler Partition myself

However, one thing the current crop of Professional African Guides are a bit short on is experience with good cast bullets - HEAVY w/WFN.it might be they find what works and stick with it. or maybe is avaliblity is the issue .

One of the writers went to Africa a number of years back, and the guides had all kinds of reservations about his use of a 45/70 w/cast bullets until they saw the results first hand. Bell killwed over 1000 elephants with 303 , 7mm and 6.5 mm ball ammo. others died trying so success by one hunter does not assure it with another. just saying.

No more questions, just awestruck at the results from a cartridge first used well over a hundred years ago. If it was one of the articles I read the round used was souped up quite a bit and would have blown any of the guns used 100 years ago to bits.

Newer and better bullet designs/profiles/alloys make this into something other then a 1873 discussion.Quite

If you folks will go to Garrett Cartridges Inc. and read some of Randy Garrett's info as per big bears and a 45/70 w/ WFN cast bullets, you can see conformation of what I've been trying to get across.

Randy will greatly enlighten you as per velocity and quality cast bullets.

Note that Randy also makes comments as to bullet profile and the problems with bolt actions as per feeding bullets with the most effective profile.

As per an earlier posts about needing to break down a nasty critter, NO QUESTION THERE, but if you can't believe my comments about a heavy hard cast WFN bullet being up to the task, you need to do a bit of research into the subject.you have valid points for sure

A properly cast WFN of the proper alloy is up to the task of breaking down any bear at any time and from any angle.

Check out the results on the big African buffalo. Do a search on Marlin Owner Forum or Cast Boolits Forum.

I didn't really believe some of the info myself, until I tried it for myself. It just seemed to good to be true to this old jacketed bullet loader/shooter/hunter. However, everything I have read about good WFN cast bullets in a good cast bullet caliber - bigger is better - is 100% true in spades!

You may never buy into using and casting your own bullets, but you own it to yourself to do a bit of research. It very likely will surprise you if not make you a convert. Not to start an argument but as a question how would cast bullet loads fare in a hostile enviroment with moisture , temp swings etc vs a jacketed bullet ? and rough handleing ? And one other concern is deforming and going off course ?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #28 on:** November 16, 2012, 10:29:19 AM »

AS to your last question, Shootall, there are plenty of hard cast bullets used in Alaska already, and they are not voicing any problems.

You can find their posts on Cast Boolits Forum and the Marlin Owners Forum. Those folk are rabid cast boolit/bullet shooters. Also on the Beartooth Bullets Forum.

With the little results I have seen on a couple of elk and some deer, I sure would not try to do other then agree with their comments. Just to many folks with positive results, including those in Africa.

When it was recommended by my mold maker to use H335 in the 45/70, some folk chimed in with H335 giving poor or negative results in cold weather.

Well, I took a bunch of my loads, frozen then for a week or so, then went out to shoot EARLY in the morning, removing the loads from the freezer and putting them into an cooler packed with ice packs. Set up at the range and then removed the loads, one at a time from the ice, loaded and fired for target and velocity.

Grouping was on par with normal tests, and the velocity showed only a slight decrease in fps.

Need less to say, that ended that discussion and I continue to use the H335 with zero negative issues to this point.

Soooo, all that to say I can only go with my findings as per temp or weather related issues. So far, ZERO.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

FPH · « **Reply #29 on:** November 17, 2012, 03:38:31 PM »

I spoke to a PH from S. Africa today. I also spoke to two friends that have hunted S. Africa with different PH's. Every one recommended or had bee recommended the Barnes X bullet for dangerous game. They said it has tremendous penetration,good wound cavity and retained about 98% of it's mass. Second was the " Bear Claw " bonded bullet used by Federal. Also Sam Fadala loaded a .45-70 with a Broad Meplat bullet and was quite impressed.