Solids Or Soft Points For Grizzly Protection

[corbanzo]

.416 rigby you say??  I would recommend: a bullet.


Bears aren't rhino's.  Any .416 rifle bullet is going to smash a bear shoulder. 


Now if you started talking .338 cal we might have a discussion...   Which I would recommend a barnes. 

[FPH]

On a side note, I watched a Jeff Corwin show today.  The show was about Kodiak Bears.  Nice to see that the show was realistic. The Wild Life Biologist was required to carry a shotgun for protection.

[AkMike1]

Kodiak has a bunch of bears. You'd be foolish to go around without decent protection.
Here's one that one of our group got several years ago. He used a .30 wildcat at FOURTY FEET! Yes with soft points, Noslers IIRC

[454Puma]

jambie
 Your 400 gr SP should be more then enough to stop a charging bear. But since your talking Lower 48 Montana I suggest you also have a very good lawyer on speed dial cause you will mostly likely be charged for shooting an endangered species!  Especially since the Liberal Progressives are running the country!

[SHOOTALL]

or carry a shovel 

[bilmac]

Grizzlies are shot in self defense in the around the yellowstone area almost every year. There is always a review, but I haven't heard of anyone who has been prosecuted under the endangered species act.

What does surprise me is that no one has sued the government for reckless endangerment.

[wolverine_1]

Wrong question. From my experience in taking an 850 lb Alaskan brown bear years ago, it is the bullet construction that counts.  Multiple hits by a friend with a 7mm Mag would knock the bear down, but when we skinned it out, his had all blown up in the fat while the one shot from my .30-40 Krag shooting 220 gr Winchester Silvertips went in one side and was stopped by the skin on the other side.  "Both were soft points" but his were listed for "thin skinned game."  Bear hide is thin, but the 6-8" of fat isn't.  good luck, gene

[Darrell Davis]

eugenes, YES! as per bullet construction.
 
Some friends went to Alaska for Spring bear 4 - 5 years ago.  Arla did get a bear, an big mean, ugly boar with absessed teeth, that came for them the moment it swam to the shore of the island they had beached on.
 
Arla emptied her .338, and the guide his .375 before the bear had an over dose of lead.  Their extra ammo was still in the boat, and they were wanting more before the critter dropped.
 
I'd sure like to have my 45/70 and the 465gr WFN cast in my hands if I ever were backed into that situation.  Looooooong and deep penertration and a wound channel that is hard to believe from a bullet like this non-expanding WFN cast.
 
Without seeing it, it is really hard to believe the effectiveness of this combination. AWESOME!!
 
Guess you know what my choice would be  between solids or soft points!
 
No question about it!
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[bilmac]

Hunting and self defense are different things. If you hunt one you expect a broadside shot and have time to be precise. If a bear is coming to eat you, you have seconds and you have a frontal shot. Not that a prudent hunter shouldn't be carrying a rifle capable of stopping a charge, but stories of the lesser calibers doing ok to put down griz in a hunting situation is not the same thing.

[Darrell Davis]

bilmac,
 
Correct, there is a difference!
 
However, life and hunting being what it is, what started out to be a "hunt" has been known many time to turn into a self defense situation such as that related about my friends and Arla's big brown.
 
Now another friend, Lennie, who happened to be on the same hunt, went into the situation like he was in a fight for his life.  Carring his .338, a .44 loaded with 310gr LFN cast at 1300fps and a Bowie knife almost big enough to use for a boat paddle.
 
As it turned out, Lennie's taking of his bear proved to be nothing life threating, other then for the bear, while Arla's hunt could have had a very different and very bad ending.
 
If your hunting for, or in a area occupied by something able to turn you into table fare, the smart person prepairs for the worse case as failure to do so could prove to be just that.
 
Not every shot is broad side and not every shot is a dreamed of an planned.  This is, after all, hunting.
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with him. ANY 416 bullet DESIGNED for the 416 is going to be plenty tough enough for a bear.

First of all.....416 bullets are designed for penetration on big animals, so soft points are preferred.  They have a much thicker jacket than lesser calibers.  It would be advised to load the first and second and 3rd with SPs and the remainder with solids.  The Partition would be a fine go to bullet.  No...I haven't killed a raging griz.  I have killed quite a few animals with the larger calibers and find that soft points do in fact penetrate quite well in the calibers for which they are designed.

[SHOOTALL]

Hunting and self defense are different things. If you hunt one you expect a broadside shot and have time to be precise. If a bear is coming to eat you, you have seconds and you have a frontal shot. Not that a prudent hunter shouldn't be carrying a rifle capable of stopping a charge, but stories of the lesser calibers doing ok to put down griz in a hunting situation is not the same thing.

the difference is often the hunter has a guide or other hunter backing him up where a lone travler dosen't

[corbanzo]

Wrong question. From my experience in taking an 850 lb Alaskan brown bear years ago, it is the bullet construction that counts.  Multiple hits by a friend with a 7mm Mag would knock the bear down, but when we skinned it out, his had all blown up in the fat while the one shot from my .30-40 Krag shooting 220 gr Winchester Silvertips went in one side and was stopped by the skin on the other side.  "Both were soft points" but his were listed for "thin skinned game."  Bear hide is thin, but the 6-8" of fat isn't.  good luck, gene

Thin compared to what???  A rhino?  7mm is pretty much a nono for big bears, especially because most of the bullets are designed to open up to make a bigger wound channel, so they hit something tough like a bear they are gonna open up and blow up reeeeaaaaalll quick like. 


That isn't a problem you are going to have with a .416.


I load my .458 with hardcast lead.  A buddy took a brownie just this spring with my gun with a 405grn cast I loaded, 1 shot.  405 grains of any bullet at over a 40 cal over 2500fps is gonna ruin somebodies day.     Expansion??  What's that??  My friend meplat takes care of allllll those problems. 

[Darrell Davis]

Your correct on the "meplat" statement, and you don't need anywhere near 2500fps to get er done.
 
A WFN cast at 1650fps is awesome.
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[corbanzo]

Yeah....  I actually slowed that load down to 2300 fps..... because I started loading a 460 grain for my .458 lott.   

[mcwoodduck]

First of all.....416 bullets are designed for penetration on big animals, so soft points are preferred.  They have a much thicker jacket than lesser calibers.  It would be advised to load the first and second and 3rd with SPs and the remainder with solids.  The Partition would be a fine go to bullet.  No...I haven't killed a raging griz.  I have killed quite a few animals with the larger calibers and find that soft points do in fact penetrate quite well in the calibers for which they are designed.

I agree the 400 grain .416 bullet is a tough bullet designed for Africa nd the largest game.
If you go to A squared's website they reccomend the Lion Load for bears. 
The lion load is designed to penetrate and expand to stop a preditor.  All three of the loads, Soilid, Soft points and Lion Loads are all the same speed and point of impact and you can stagger a mag with out worring about them hitting in different spots. 
 

[Darrell Davis]

No question as to the effectiveness of GOOD jacketed bullets in a big bore.  Not one!
 
In fact, I am a Nosler Partition fan since the 60s.
 
But, and I guess in truth this took a bit of faith in the writers and what I was reading before I started hunting with cast bullet in my 45/70, but the hard cast bullets from the larger bores, and medium to heavy bullets for bore size, cast with a large flat meplat, are every bit as effective as what the writers would want you to believe.
 
In fact my first critter, taken 3 seasons ago, with a WFN cast of 355gr at a muz velocity of just over 2300fps was waaaay too much of a good thing.  Over the top wound channel to say the least.
 
My current 45/70 hunting load is a cast 465gr WFN at 1650, and to state it as simply as possible, it is awesome on deer and elk.
 
That non-expanding Wide Flat Nose meplat provides a would channel which is not only big, but very long!
 
As per velocity, I believe it is on the Beartooth Bullets Forum that links can be found to the testing which pretty well proves the fact that with cast bullets at least, wound channels are longest/deepest with bullets in the 1500 - 1700fps range rather then with loads exceeding 2000fps.
 
I understand that quality jacketed bullets need at least a thresh hold level of velocity to get them to upset and expand.  NOT SO with the WFN cast, as it is creating a large wound channel from the instant it touches the critter's hide, and just keeps doing so for a long ways.
 
Now, I'd want to do a lot of expermenting with alloy before heading to a place like Africa, but there is simply nothing in North America which I'd fear to put this load and bullet up against.
 
Please hear me, I'm in no way attempting to down play the quality and usefullness of the large dia. and well constructed jacketed bullets against big game.  Not at all.
 
However, and I don't think I'm all that different then most other old high velocity and jacketed bullet shooters/hunters.  I'd say until we personally see the results from a heavy and large bore, cast WFN bullet we won't really believe the results from this non-expanding bullet.
 
Afterall, good and controled expansion from a quality jacketed bullet has been where, "it's" at for most of us alive today.
 
Anyway, as said, not down playing the great jacketed bullets used in the big bores, but I think for those who have not already done so, many folks would find there to be much interesting reading and information to be found on forums such as Beartooth Bullets Forum, Marlin Owners Forum, the Cast Boolits Forum as well in the cast bullet section here on Graybeard.
 
There are a number of African hunts spoken of on the Marlin Owners forum, and likely on the others as well.
 
Check out the information provided by Veral Smith of LBT (Lead Bullet Technology)fame, here on GB.
 
Cast or Jacketed, enjoy those big bores!
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

[Dresden]

This is very interesting reading, I have Randy Garretts comments save in my ammo/reloading files, I think Randy is a guy who just paid attention to some well known facts from British Big game hunting from the last century.


A heavy caliber well constructed bullet at moderate velocities will penetrate deeply, look for a sectional
density number beginning with 3. 


 The 416 Rigby made a reputation at 2000 fps because Rigby supplied very well made bullets in 1912. The 450-400 made a reputation with less energy than the Rigby, so did the 404 Jeffery.


 If the 45-70 can can penetrate well at 1800fps, I think my 416 Rigby can do the same with Barnes solids, or Hornady DGS or Hornady DGX bullets. for Bear I would trust the Hornady DGX expanding followed by solids


People also talk about Bell killing elephants with 6.5 mm and 7mm.  The 6.5,  7mm, and 8mm guns of the day were loaded with a round nose solid bullet heavy for caliber designed for a particular military application. they were designed to penetrate enemy earthworks and sand bags, and they did it very well, even the low powdered Carcano was a good penetrator, the Magic Bullet was designed to do what it did. 

[mcwoodduck]

Dresden,
There is a big difference between a hunting rifle and a STOPPING rifle.
Hunting is where a well placed shot of even moderate caliber and velocity will kill larger game than you would think.
A stopping rifle is there to end a charge with sufficient energy to cause one of three things to happen.
1) disrupt the central nervous system (brain or spine shot)
2) Break load bearing bones
3) rupture blood vessles to cause a drop in blood pressure as to shut off the brain. 
A stopping rilfe needs to be large bore as to hit as much as possible
Shooting heavy for caliber bullets for penetration and beable to get past heavy large bone, thick skin and course fur.
That is smooth shooting an can make quick follow up shots. 

[corbanzo]

Well you have to agree that sometimes you need a stopping rifle as your hunting rifle, and with some game anchoring your quarry is your first goal. 


Almost any gun out there can stop a heart, but a stopped heart takes time to stop and animal. 

[Charcoal]

IMHO:Since the OP asked about bear protection and not hunting bears I look at what PHs in Africa use to back their clients up on dangerous game. They all use some type of a premium solid,why??Because a solid will penetrate more and depending on the animal, exit and make two holes. Also,in a SD situation you do not always get a perfect shooting set up like a hunter would/should use. You may have to take a shot that is less than ideal and a solid will more likely penetrate deeper and bust up more tissue and organs.
Since the OP is talking a serious cartridge like 416 Rigby,which can/has taken any beastie in darkest Africa,it should work quite nicely in the States on big bears. The Rigby is an excellent round if you can handle it.
I would look at the premium solids available today and save some pennies(a lot) and use them.

[Lloyd Smale]

keep in mind your taking advice from people who dont really know including myself. Not to many here have taken a grizzly and id bet none have with 416. Also keep in mind that the 416 is suited to elephant and cape buffalo hunting. Using one on a bear is about like using a 06 on coyote or a 2506 on ground hogs. then keep in mind the poster is talking grizzlys not brown bear which can be much larger. A large black bear is comparable to a medium sized grizzly. A 7mag or 300 mag is considered ample gun for grizzly by most. A 338 about ideal even for brown bear. Ive never killed a grizzly. Only one ive ever seen in real life was at yellowstone. But from what ive gleamed from reading magazines for years i dont think ive ever even heard of an guide that used solids to stop a bear. Id say probably 75percent of them use 338s or 375s loaded with soft points.
 
Personaly i think if its just bear protection your conserned with and not hunting or for that matter being a guide who has to protect hunters from wounded animals a 416 isnt what you want to tote around. For one thing most of them when scoped are over 10lbs and thats alot to tote around just on the off chance a bear is going to attack you. You could carrry a short barreled 12 guage or a 20 inch barreled light weight 06 loaded with 180 barnes bullets  that weighted half that and would still get the job done. Or another thought is a good handgun shooting cast bullets. A handgun is with you all the time. Its not layed down while you take a crap or are doing other chores. Its not so cumbersome that you talk yourself out of carrying it for a day. Something like a 4inch 44 mag can be put in a holster and for the most you dont even notice your carrying it till its needed. No it wont put down a bear like a 416 will but its better then a stick or a 416 propped up against a tree 5 yards away.

[mcwoodduck]

Lloyd,
I agree a 12 ga that is used often in either a pump or an auto with slugs and buck would be a better choice.  a 12 ga has a lot of power up close.  A standard 1 oz slug weighs a little more than the standard 416 slug.  437 grains vs 400.  The width of a 12 ga standard slug is .729 and the 416 is well .416, making the 12 ga slug almost twice the width.  If we are talking about a sabot slug the bullet is going to be the same 1 oz and around .50 caliber and be longer for deeper penetration but they only work with rifled barrels.  And  a rifled barrel you can shoot standard slugs as well as buck shot through it for very short ranges,  that a bear attack would be.  A 12 ga would be easier to shoot multiple rounds out of either a pump or semi auto.  where most 416 rifles are going to be a bolt action and with recoil ( I have a 375 H&H and recoil on it is stout I  can only imaginge a 416 throwing a slug 1/3 heavier at the same speed) you may only get one shot may be two.   At the range get a buddy to stand 10 yards away along the firing line.  Get him to run at you. As soon as he moves you need to grab your rifle, take off the safety and shoot a target as many times as you can with the different options you have to shoot before he gets to you.  It will make you shoot under pressure and let you know about how much time you have for a bear twice that distance charging you.  Then see how many were on a standard human sized target and were vital hits. 
If I were headed into bear country, I would take the shotgun I normally hunt with, shoot skeet or sporting clays with and swap out the barrel to a rifled one with fast sights, either ghost rings or a big glowing bead.  I would stick 5 rounds in it, 3 sabot slugs and two buck shot.  The last two being magnum buch shot loads.
If the bolt action were my only option I would use the softist, soft points available for the bear, as lloyd said they are not an elephant and it will not take the penetration of a solid to get through the hair, skin, fat, mussle and bone of a bruin to get to the soft blood bearing gooshy parts.  The bones on a bear do not over lap like on a cape buffalo, And sufficient penetration will be done by pure energy, I would want something that opens up to that same diameter of the 12 ga slug and gives more surface area to hit vital parts.  I would want sights that were fast.  Either a low power scope like the 1-4 Power trijicon or day glow iron sights. 
If either were to be used I would use the gun often.  I would be comfortable shooting the shotgun or the bolt action and not have to worry about me short shucking the pump, or the long bolt of a magnum rifle.   If you are not going to practice with the gun then a SXS or over and under coach gun with a single trigger would be your best bet.  loaded with slugs and a shorter stock so it will not hang up on your heavier clothes worn in bear country.   
But I am under the impression he already has the 416 and wants to use it.

[Ranch13]

In the op the guy said "advice for last-ditch Grizzly/Brown bear protection while back-country camping in Montana"
Any of the big so called african chambered rifles aren't going to be advisable for a couple of reasons, first the weight as has been pointed out, second any body draggin something like that around with them in the middle of camping season is going to attract some attention and probably get a visit from the local gamewardens, and lastly a person has to remember that in the lower 48 those grizz are still protected, and as such you best have a good lawyer on speed dial and a life flight to the nearest hospital/trauma center with some pretty severe wound requiring extensive treatment, and you're still going to have a good bit of splainin to do to the USFWS boys....
Solids or softpoints is really a mute point, when all the other factors are figured in...

[SHOOTALL]

SSSS 
 
Shotgun - Shoot- Shovel and Shut up !
would this little phrase apply ?

[RevGeo]

Boys, I'm thinking that no matter what rifle you're shooting in this situation, just make sure you're shooting straight.


George

[Dresden]

Very good comments gentlemen and I enjoy reading all of them, I am a large bore fan so for me using what I have would be a choice.  I would use two things for Bear protection, 10% Capsicum spray, a friend of mine in Alaska knocked down two charging bears with this stuff. the other would be my 416 Ruger Alaskan that I load to 4000 ft/lb energy and 2150 fps. I only worry about bears when hunting in Montana.
Two people who are recognized in the shooting world:

“Make no mistake: With equally good shot placement, a 400 grain .416 will put down a Cape buffalo more quickly and more dramatically than a 300 grain .375. That said, a 500 grain, 458 caliber bullet will be even more dramatic and effective. - Craig Boddington


The .416s [400 grain solids] will penetrate an elephant’s skull from any angle and usually exit. As velocity drops and frontal area (resistance) increases, penetration diminishes, and it diminishes faster with bullets of lower sectional density. At a velocity level below something like 2,100 fps, depending on caliber and bullet weight, you must rule out frontal brain shots on elephant altogether. “The .416 is significantly/dramatically more effective on buffalo than the .375 and immeasurably/a great deal better on elephant. Which .416 you choose doesn’t matter much. The .416 Rigby and .416 Remington are ballistically identical and identical in their effects on game. You can throw in the .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman, .411 KDF, .404 Jeffery and .425 Westley Richards as well. Faster and more powerful are the .416 Weatherby and .416 Dakota and Lazzeroni’s 10.57 Meteor. These are harder-kicking cartridges that offer a good deal more versatility for longer shots at plains game, but on dangerous game at close range offer little practical advantage over the .416 Remington/Rigby ballistics.” - Craig Boddington


“Something on the order of a .404 or .416 wearing a low-powered scope is probably the best combination of power and versatility [for buffalo].” - Craig Boddington


“If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington’s .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead.” - Ross Seyfried


The bottom line is you pay up and make your choice. I do however like the discussion.

[SHOOTALL]

does one need all that to shoot his hunting buddy in the knee and run ?

[mcwoodduck]

“Make no mistake: With equally good shot placement, a 400 grain .416 will put down a Cape buffalo more quickly and more dramatically than a 300 grain .375. That said, a 500 grain, 458 caliber bullet will be even more dramatic and effective. - Craig Boddington

I follow the Capstick Rule, a Cape buffalo that is shot in the foot will run you over faster on three legs than four, shoot the largest caliber you can shoot well.  For most that is the 375H&H. 

[Darrell Davis]

Yope Shootall, a .25acp is plenty
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot