Author Topic: Beginners lathe? (Read 3880 times)

carmy53 · « **on:** August 07, 2012, 11:13:34 AM »

I'm thinking of taking an Adult Education machine shop course so I could try turning my own barrels. If I still think I might want to do this after taking the course, what would be a good "starter" lathe?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:26:08 AM »

To me a good starter lathe is as big as you can get and have the room for..... you will find yourself limited if you go too small and after a few small tubes if you want to try bigger it will take time to find another lathe...... if you are near a larger town/city look for a used industrial equipment business they should have different sized lathes be careful though when buying shy away from 220 three phase as you will have to buy a converter to use it.... the lathe may look like a bargain until you discover you bought a 3 phase and need to spend more money to make it work..... Also look at Craig's list.... they show up there from time to time.... the good thing with used equipment business is they tend to buy out everthing so there should be plenty of tooling to be had at resonable prices......
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Thought of a few other points..... unless you are comfortable using metric make sure the diles on the lathe are in inch I have seen one or two imports marked in metric..... quick change gearing is nice to have unless you like reading the charts and putting the right gears into the mix by hand.... can get time consuming also shy away form antique lathes most early lathes will only have a one inch bore in the head stock.... I had an antigue lathe that had been converted from over head belt to electric motor it was very precise but you couldn't slide anything larger than about an inch into the head stock past the chuck.....

carmy53 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:30:00 AM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on August 07, 2012, 11:26:08 AM

To me a good starter lathe is as big as you can get and have the room for..... you will find yourself limited if you go too small and after a few small tubes if you want to try bigger it will take time to find another lathe...... if you are near a larger town/city look for a used industrial equipment business they should have different sized lathes be careful though when buying shy away from 220 three phase as you will have to buy a converter to use it.... the lathe may look like a bargain until you discover you bought a 3 phase and need to spend more money to make it work..... Also look at Craig's list.... they show up there from time to time.... the good thing with used equipment business is they tend to buy out everthing so there should be plenty of tooling to be had at resonable prices......

My worry about buying used equipment is that I won't know what to check to make sure I'm not buying junk.
Any idea of cost comparison of used versus new? For instance, what should I expect to pay for a lathe that would be able to turn a 20" barrel?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »

New lathes look at Jet tool they are both a manufacture and importer another is Grizzly tool which is imported.... most likely China. I suggested the used route first so you could be able to spend more money on tooling.... even if you can afford a new lathe it's to tooling that can eat up even more money.....
http://jettools.com/us/manufacturing/en/products.html?node=4642&category=7311
We have a nice Jet lathe here at work also a milling machine, band saw, metal and wood, table saw.....etc etc.....
http://www.grizzly.com/products/category/460000%7C700000
I have bought tooling from Grizzly ... no complaints........

As far as used equipment it can be a gamble.... but I have yet to spend thousands of dollars on a lathe...... I could not afford it at the time.....also the older equipment most time is not imports..... and better made....
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Hopfully when you take the classes the instructor can point you in a direction as to used or new equipment he may know of a lathe that will fit the bill....

Zulu · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:43:55 AM »

carmy53,
Wow!
What a giant step. I'm proud of you!
I would like to do the same thing except that I would have to move. I have absolutely no room for more equipment.

Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:46:13 AM »

Take the shop class first then buy a lathe. The class will teach you the basics, but it will also teach you what you need to look for.

armorer77 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:51:15 AM »

My 14 x 53 " LeBlonde cost a $1000 it was beat up , abused . but it was all I could afford . Check the ways for wear grooves and large scratches . Lift the cross slide , watch for excessive free play . Mostly you are looking for signs of abuse . Honest wear can be repaired at low cost , if you are willing to invest time , abuse is a bit harder to correct . But it can be done . My good fortune with this lathe was the taper attachment . Ed

carmy53 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:59:35 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on August 07, 2012, 11:43:55 AM

carmy53,
Wow!
What a giant step. I'm proud of you!
I would like to do the same thing except that I would have to move. I have absolutely no room for more equipment.
Zulu

Zulu,
I might find out that machining is not for me but I thought I would give it a try. Retirement is fast approaching and I will need a hobby! I might also take a course in bronze casting. That way I would have all the bases of cannon making covered!

carmy53 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:03:13 PM »

Quote from: Double D on August 07, 2012, 11:46:13 AM

Take the shop class first then buy a lathe. The class will teach you the basics, but it will also teach you what you need to look for.

I figured that would be the way to go but I thought I would ask for some suggestions here first.

carmy53 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »

I'd like to thank everybody for all their suggestions but since I don't even understand the terminology being used as to what to look for or what to avoid it is obvious to me that I need to wait until after I take the course before I even think about buying equipment.

By the way, this is not the course I will be taking but it's the course that got me thinking that somebody with zero machine shop experience might be able to learn how to turn a cannon barrel in a very short time.
http://www.thewoodenboatschool.com/related-crafts/salute-cannon.php

armorer77 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:28:14 PM »

You only need to know 3 things to get started , 1 where are you ? 2 Where do you want to end up . 3 How big a bite can your machine take . Everything else is just fine tuning . Ed

robbob · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:32:46 PM »

Last year I almost took this class

http://www.pct.edu/wdce/worddocs/TRS184.doc

And this one

http://www.pct.edu/wdce/worddocs/TRS183.doc

They are offering them again this fall for $359 each. Probably well worth it. Plus there is a Grizzly store here, was just there on Saturday oogling all the cool tools....

I'm sure I'll get around to taking the classes some day

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2012, 04:28:57 PM »

camry53

I machined my last barrel (a half scale ordnance rifle built on a 40mm BOFORS barrel) in an evening class for intermediate/advanced students... they let us pick our own project. The beginning class isn't likely to let you do that as most students are still figuring out what all the levers and knobs are for...

There is a set of tests for determining the condition of lathes (kind of like compression and vacuum tests for engines). They envlove a little machining i.e. a test bar turned in the chuck and then measuring the variation(s) in the diameter... any taper, etc. (that's the only one I remember but I'd bet you could Google them and get the whole set). The first lathe I bought was a South Bend 16x60 and had been in the back toolroom of a machine tool dealer for about 20+ years... anyway I came and ran the tests and then offered them about $2000 less than they were asking and showed them the/their test results (it was mostly worn out). You may have to borrow some machinist tools (micrometer(s), dial indicator with mag base, etc. to do the tests but it is well worth the trouble to really know what you are buying. When you know what a lathe really is most wear deficiencies can be compensated for...
Also lathes are often used to grind shafts, etc. Some idiots do not cover the ways/cross-slides with damp towels before grinding and they leave grit on the surfaces to groove and wear the ways and slides... look for signs of that having been done to your machine.
When you take your class you should be able to get the tests and maybe check-out the necessary tools to conduct them.

Good luck!

GOW

GGaskill · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2012, 05:10:52 PM »

The advantage of used machines is they usually come with all the tooling (chucks, centers, rests, face plates, etc.) that was used on the machine in its life. Buying all that stuff can easily double the cost of a new machine. (An interesting exercise would be to look at a Grizzly machine and see what comes with it, then see what else is available for it and how much that adds to the cost.)

The risk is buying something that is used up. The first big lathe I bought still sits in my shop unused because the seller was a crook and either misrepresented it or did not deliver all the parts for it. I got a couple more later so never had the motivation to find the missing parts. If you should run into an old LeBlond Regal, do not buy without checking that all gears have all teeth. I have dealt with three of these machines and two were missing teeth on the low speed gear and the other had had its gears replaced at some point in its life. Otherwise they are good machines.

My best hint is to not be too antsy about buying one. Look around at as many machines as you can before buying, both for experience and a better choice. A good deal will stand out. I helped a friend buy the regeared LeBlond and a bunch of tooling early this year for $500. Its owner had died and his widow was disposing of it. Sometimes estate sales will have machinery; check any that offer such. Get the word out amongst your acquaintances that you are looking.

Finally, you have to decide what you want to make and how big it is as that will control the length of the machine. It needs to be about twice as long between centers as the barrel to be made if you are going to be able to drill it.

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:03:18 PM »

Davis Standard (IMO) is one of the better built that you will find used, but the ones I see coming in and out of local shops are LARGE. Locally these are the industrial standard as far as older equipment. Checking the ways, the ways oilers, and the gibs. Operate the controls, and check the back lash. The free play when changing directions is not a huge deal, as long as it is consistent.

New, JET is the other brand found in shops locally.

Prices vary with age, and condition. Make friends with the instructor, and have him help you pick out a good used machine.

Victor3 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:39:19 PM »

Apart from cost (including moving, which can be susbtantial), If you're only going to be making barrels and other simple parts for cannons, size of the machine is one of the the 1st things to consider. Even a worn out old lathe (as long as everything's functional) can easily make most round parts required for most styles of cannon. There are many work-arounds to get better precision out of old machines if you happen to find one at a bargain price.

It's kinda like owning an old car; pretty soon you learn what you need to do to make it go. However, paying for a clean one with few miles on it is generally better than the junker your brother wants to give you for free.

Also, it never hurts to get a machine that's common, where parts and repair info are easily obtainable...

http://www.southbendlathe.com/products/parts

KABAR2 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2012, 05:33:29 AM »

http://www.southbendlathe.com/products/lathes/1926-Lathe-Rebuild
Now that's a lathe!

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2012, 11:23:44 AM »

At the risk of being politically incorrect...

The Taiwanese have been at the game a bit longer and were quick to let US manufacturers come in and teach them about Mehanite castings and other quality enhancing technologies. All of South Bend's machines come out of Taiwan... at least the ones I have looked into. Mainland is still coming up to speed on a few things. I did buy a rotary table from Mainland and checking it out on a surface plate with a digital height indicator (again there is a set of standard tests for rotary tables as there is for lathes) ALL the tolerances checked out to be half or less of the maximum stated in their literature so don't ever sell Mainland short but it's good to verify testing results.

Some people set up shop in a warehouse and buy low bidder parts from all over the world. They then assemble the machine(s) and put their nameplate on the machine. Many Bridgeport copy machines are turned out that way because their parts are mostly all standardized. Try to buy machines that have their parts as well as their assembly done by the outfit whose name is on them... Cadillac lathes were produced by Yang I think and Alliant mills were made by the same people that make Sharp. I used to know a lot of the relationships but that was years ago and what I haven't forgotten has probably changed.

GOW

GOW

beazld · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:48:50 AM »

Something else to keep in mind when thinking about purchasing a lathe or mill is that the cost of tooling it up can be a multiple of the purchase price of the machine. I found out the hard way!

flagman1776 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2012, 09:51:35 AM »

I pretty much have the tooling that came with my machine... I should make some time to follow the local flea market where I've bought an odd piece now & then. I think it's a mistake to buy a machine without a good tooling package for the tasks you envision. And remember a BARGAIN is only a BARGAIN if the item is right for your use.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:57:44 PM »

A big machine can do small work, it doesnt really work too well the other way around.
The old industrial shops of the Great Lakes or the farm machinery manufacturers had lots, and they were bought up, but many of those chaps are now disposing of, or, sadly, passing on and we will see stuff coming up for sale again. It runs in streaks........like so many things, look for a distressed seller, not distressed machinery. And if its a widow be an honorable man with a fair offer.

Frank46 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2012, 05:28:16 PM »

Try and get the biggest one you can afford. Better too big than not big enough. And start browsing the various web pages from enco, travers tool, and msc to name a few. And see if there are any places that buy out machine shops. Sometimes you can get some good deals on used tooling. Years ago when I got my first lathe a 6" craftsman there was a place not too far that sold all sorts of used tooling. And was lucky enough that some of it could be used on that lathe and my larger jet. Frank

robbob · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2012, 12:58:19 AM »

Quote from: Frank46 on August 12, 2012, 05:28:16 PM

Try and get the biggest one you can afford. Better too big than not big enough.

How about this one 126" between centers!

http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/tls/3173841484.html

flagman1776 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2012, 02:02:35 AM »

Nice one.
Please note the bearing oil cups BELOW the bearings on this nice old lathe. The oil resevoir must be kept full of light machine oil, there's a wick to lift oil to the bearings. Obiviously the bearing & thus accuracy are at stake.
Doing small items of a big lathe sometimes does't work. Unless you have collets, holding small pieces in a big chuck can be impossible. There are work arounds IF you have the right tooling.

de_lok · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2012, 02:32:24 AM »

Quote from: robbob on August 13, 2012, 12:58:19 AM

Quote from: Frank46 on August 12, 2012, 05:28:16 PM
Try and get the biggest one you can afford. Better too big than not big enough.

How about this one 126" between centers!

http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/tls/3173841484.html

Better have a big truck and a crane! ha ha...............

and a lot of shop space, also will need an overhead crane or fork truck to change chucks out. The four jaw chuck for this lathe can weigh more than some lathes in many home shops! 3 phase power is needed for most big machines

. Like others have said, machines like this can be a real bargain but need to checked out first. Kinda big for a first choice "starter" lathe. I would recomend a smaller machine, like a guality benchtop for a starter, start out on smaller scale cannons, then as your skill develops graduate to a larger machine. Their are many advantages starting out small. They weigh less (300 lbs vs 3 tons) and are easier to move, smaller metal parts when scraped are less expensive than big metal parts, if it turns out not to be your thing smaller machines are easier to just keep for many reasons where as a 5 ton machine would have to go! The same skills can be honed on a small lathe, then going up is an easy step. You will also want a good milling machine once you get started, again smaller is much more economical. That being said choosing good quality small machines can be a task. I recently found a 9 in bench top Southbend lathe with qc gearbox, f/r spindle, power crossfeed, 3 &4 jaw chucks, collet closer with collets, and a lot of tooling for $500 bucks. I am driving 5 hrs tommorrow to get it. There is also a tiawan benchtop mill with lots of tooling for $500 bucks, I plan to bring them both home. Another good thing about starting small is when you do decide to go with bigger machines you will like having a variety of sizes in your shop. Then theres things like bandsaws$, drill press$, small mig welder$, rolling and forming tools$, wood working tools$, metal racks to store metal$, tool boxes$, tooling$, ladi da da da............................

$$$$$$$$$ Am I right guys???

robbob · « **Reply #25 on:** August 13, 2012, 08:14:42 AM »

Of course I realize it is way to big for a starter, but 126" gives a guy some ideas....... Like full size cannons! I may never own a lathe but I gotta dream, and why not dream big?

armorer77 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 13, 2012, 11:02:12 AM »

I started with a 53" , but I have a shop where it resides and makes money for my employer . The newer lathe now at my disposal is 84" . I see a 1841 GB barrel in the near future . When I bought the first machine I would have called anyone a liar if he told me that I would be shopping for a bigger one within 2 years . Ed

flagman1776 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 13, 2012, 11:27:10 AM »

My first personal machine is a Unmat 3 which is a HO sized machine... a joke for much else.
My SouthBend C9-10JR (cira late 1930s) is 30" between centers with 4.75 over the bed and 3" over the cross slide. It is too small. Less than 1" through the headstock is very limiting. It will only take fine cuts. All manual, it's a cut & try machine. One jump up in size would alow me to do much more.
For the same amount on money, a more capable machine would be a better investment.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 13, 2012, 01:00:49 PM »

Even my 1947(?) Craftman (Atlas) 12 x 36 (120VAC) does not have the much needed larger headshaft hole and once the stock is held and the talistock brought up it is less than 36 between centers. I have looked at the Grizzly and Jet products and the packages c/w some tooling are attractive, not to mention the larger hole is already there. I dont do bigger stuff anymore anyway, so it is a fine machine for me, but when the odd rifle barrel project comes along I can only get a skinny one backed in. These mini and micro cannons are getting me interested again (and, as an old guy, Ive come to believe that a man's toys should best be something he can move himself).
BTW, Ive had the old Unimat SL's ,one set up as a lathe and the other as a mill (mostly toy machines), a Unimat 3 (better), 3 Atlas 6 x 18's (all pretty worn out), a Logan 9 x 24 and this Atlas 12 x 36 (now for some 30yrs). It is nice to have a smaller machine or two around to do small jobs or not break down a set-up on one for a quick job or another step. If you get a nice 'small' machine it can continue to serve you well if/when you get a bigger one.
My mill is a deluxe Sherline with the DC motor, and within its size limitations is a dandy little machine. I think the Sherline products are way better values that the Unimats (and their proprietary high priced tooling, etc.) and the DC makes for a high torque good bite cut. Made in the USA too. They are a fine 'model makers' tool and far better than the small 'Pacific Rim' machines at such places as Harbor Freight.
Since I can understand where you are coming from with the posted question, and wanting to avoid costly mistakes, your are wise to get the training and go through the learning curve before buying a piece of junk. Just off the top of my head (and not having perused a catalog in some time) I think you would be looking at about a min.$4000 in lathe/tooling/fixtures to get into a medium sized Jet or Grizzly. If you drop down into the $2000-$2500ish range you can get a pretty good package that will do (probably) 95% or better of what you want to do.

Frank46 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2012, 05:32:56 PM »

De_lok, oh yeah!!!!!!!. I just cleaned out my garage this summer and now the wife(bless her little heart) has tried to fill it back up. But as far as tooling is concerned what I did was get one of the sears work stations. Then laminated two 3x4' pieces of 3/4" plywood together so I would have something to put stuff on when working the lathe. Then most of the stuff in the drawers like steady rest, follower rest, 4 jaw, and faceplate are in their respective drawers. Plus the stuff that came as tooling and the stuff that I needed for the lathe. Drill press and my buffer are mounted on old steel typerighter tables that have wheels and a lever to set it flat on the floor. Shelving is a must to keep stuff off the floor. And round stock gets stored behind the lathe so as not to take up much needed space in the garage. When you order stuff think of it like getting Christmas presents, fun to open up but I hate packing peanuts. Those little suckers get into every nook and cranny. Frank