Author Topic: Total War/Totale Krieg  (Read 2852 times)

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2012, 03:57:08 PM »
Its clear that there are many here that believe the only way to victory is immorality. Perhaps they will be allowed the opportunity to see that in action; perhaps they will be on the receiving end. Most likely they will die first "fighting" unorganized but very ardent, leaving their families to suffer "total war" in their absence. Its a form of hypocrisy to advocate total war, and yet talk about liberty ... the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... as an unalienable right, endowed by a Creator. One would have to say that the Creator did not endow one's enemies with the same unalienable rights.
I don't think God restricted that endowing business to Americans. Mark me as done with that exceptionalism bit, especially when it values American lives over those of non-Americans.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2012, 04:52:18 PM »
Its clear that there are many here that believe the only way to victory is immorality. Perhaps they will be allowed the opportunity to see that in action; perhaps they will be on the receiving end. Most likely they will die first "fighting" unorganized but very ardent, leaving their families to suffer "total war" in their absence. Its a form of hypocrisy to advocate total war, and yet talk about liberty ... the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... as an unalienable right, endowed by a Creator. One would have to say that the Creator did not endow one's enemies with the same unalienable rights.
I don't think God restricted that endowing business to Americans. Mark me as done with that exceptionalism bit, especially when it values American lives over those of non-Americans.


Lest anyone think I advocate the laying down of American lives before another, let me be clear, in combat the lives of my Marines are my priority; but as honorable warriors, they have and will place themselves in danger to protect non-combatants, regardless of age or gender, who get caught in the crossfire. And I hold them in high esteem for that, because all life is precious.


I do believe in American exceptionalism as it pertains to how we conduct ourselves with our adversaries; we hold ourselves to a higher standard, and for that we are exceptional. Its when we chuck morality for pragmatism that we no longer deserve the exception.
held fast

Offline briarpatch

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2012, 04:40:06 AM »
Every politician is a dammed liar from the white house down, they are connected to the elitist of the world who control them, They (elitist) stomp the Constitutions of the world in all governments and when it pleases them they arrange for their favorite pass time of making huge sums of money and changing laws that favor them. That is war.
When all out war is needed it will happen and satisfy those that cry for it. When a limited war is needed, the same. We little men and military leaders that will do the fighting can only argue about how, the elitist will determine what is best for them.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2012, 05:04:23 AM »
Every politician is a dammed liar from the white house down, they are connected to the elitist of the world who control them, They (elitist) stomp the Constitutions of the world in all governments and when it pleases them they arrange for their favorite pass time of making huge sums of money and changing laws that favor them. That is war.
When all out war is needed it will happen and satisfy those that cry for it. When a limited war is needed, the same. We little men and military leaders that will do the fighting can only argue about how, the elitist will determine what is best for them.


There is much truth in this ... the American people have never declared War. We revolted against an oppressive government, and worked together to make that work. But the people as a whole have never asked our Government to declare war on our behalf; we have left that to them to do, and chose to believe in the cause or not.
held fast

Offline BBF

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Re: Total War/Totaler Krieg
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2012, 05:14:10 AM »
.............
............................Self defense is a right be it a man or a nation.

 In that case,Libya, Iran ,Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc are also free to practise what you preach. If it takes the possession of nukes to keep your country free from the warmongers, so be it and hurry up to get them.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2012, 05:17:28 AM »
Myself I see attacking the "civilians" of a country as te fastest way to defeat them. After all an army is only as good as its supply line. Cut off the food, fuel and armaments and the greatest army in the world will stop dead in its tracks.

Bring out the Bio weapons. :(
Kills everybody and destroys nothing.
BTW. That works both ways.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Total War/Totaler Krieg
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 01:46:26 AM »
.............
............................Self defense is a right be it a man or a nation.

 In that case,Libya, Iran ,Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc are also free to practise what you preach. If it takes the possession of nukes to keep your country free from the warmongers, so be it and hurry up to get them.
Of course they are with out doubt. But you overlook  the saber rattling of the past few years and the history of the last 1500 years . It might be in the intrest of many western countries to not allow them that option . And that is where strength comes in to play. Had they been a nation of peace instead of domination and evil there would be no problem but that hasn't been so.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2012, 09:01:10 AM »
 I can't think of another nation that has been involved with more wars, partial wars or police actions than the USA for some time.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2012, 11:51:44 AM »
Rome and Greece come to mind in history. England and France are way way way ahead of the USA in wars also. Once again the truth shoots down a lie. 
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2012, 01:51:41 PM »
Probably Iraq, at least in terms of many different conquers and rulers.

Sumerians
Akkadians
Assyrians
Babylonians
Hittites
Chaldeans
Elamites
Achaemenids
Alexander
Parthians
Romans
Sassanids
Byzantines
Muslims/Caliphates
Seljuk Turks
Il-Khanate
Tamerlane
Ottoman Turks
Safavid Empire
 
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2012, 03:01:06 PM »
Chinese.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2012, 03:05:00 PM »
As for American exceptionalism, I'll just look no further than the Olympics! The coward war culture is probably the same group who don't keep score in sport so they won't hunt self esteem.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 01:27:36 AM »
why fight a war if the intent is not to win ?
why attack if the intent is not to stop the enemy's ablity to make war (attack you) ?
what is a non combatant ? the guy shooting ? the guy making bullets ? the guy tending the wounded to make them shooters once more ? the farmer sending food to the shooter ? the cook sending food ?
the woman making shooters ? the tax payer funding the shooter ? the lady making uniforms ? the list never ends ?
10 years ago in iraq the boys and girls we saw playing in the street are now 20 year old shooters !
I for one admire the US military for trying to not harm those who may not be engaged in the war . those who may be true non combatants but in the heat of battle I would assume its hard to tell. Add that often NC's are used as shields it seems mistakes will be made . to punish troops for this seems wrong. no we are not talking about needless attacks here.
also it would seem the smart thing to do would be destory the supply of war making products back to its begining including soliders .
in many cases the population put in power the leaders who start wars do they not share in the responsiblity
? do we give then a pass in hopes other nations will give us one when we are not the winners . so far that has not happened . torture to save American lives is wrong ? wonder how the Americans who will die feel about that ? would it be different if the ones spouting no torture were to trade places with the ones who may be saved ?
we go to war because the suits failed ,
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 03:53:55 AM »
Well said, SHOOTALL.  War for a squeamish nation equals lives lost for that nation.  Playing nice never works in the worldwide political arena, and it's especially the wrong approach in time of war.  No matter how we feel about war, there will always be "wars and rumors of war."       

Offline rio grande

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 08:37:08 AM »
Every politician is a dammed liar from the white house down, they are connected to the elitist of the world who control them, They (elitist) stomp the Constitutions of the world in all governments and when it pleases them they arrange for their favorite pass time of making huge sums of money and changing laws that favor them. That is war.
When all out war is needed it will happen and satisfy those that cry for it. When a limited war is needed, the same. We little men and military leaders that will do the fighting can only argue about how, the elitist will determine what is best for them.

We can simply not participate in an immoral and unjust interventionist or 'pre-emptive' war, led and cheer-leaded by men and women, monsters really, who advocate torture, mistreatment of prisoners, targeting civilians through indiscriminate sanctions and bombings, etc.

We little people can just say no.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 08:41:25 AM »
If that were true there would be no war. Hitler proved that to the Jews in WW2 Evil exist and must be kept in check .
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Offline rio grande

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 08:57:20 AM »
If that were true there would be no war. Hitler proved that to the Jews in WW2 Evil exist and must be kept in check .

Yes, evil exists.
“The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.”
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
 
Some here sadly seem to think that when fighting evil we should 'kill them all, and let God sort them out'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric
 
 And even those who wrestle with God understand this -
 "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster".
 -Nietzsche

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2012, 09:01:17 AM »
That was the plan during the crusades now wasn't it  ;)
If you don't want weeds in your garden don't leave weed seeds .........................I said that , I speak not qoute others .
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Offline BBF

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2012, 08:33:15 AM »
Amazing how much milage that Adolf guy gets here.
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Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2012, 10:34:07 AM »
Rome and Greece come to mind in history. England and France are way way way ahead of the USA in wars also. Once again the truth shoots down a lie.


He said for some time! You know.......Like in this century! ;)  I don't think Rome and Greece have played a big part in war making recently lol!England has been involved along side of us.Nope! We are the ones rattling the sabers! Compared to our sabers, their weapons are pen knives.

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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2012, 11:24:40 AM »
So what amount of time is "for some time"?

Lies fail so fast in the face of truth.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2012, 03:14:40 PM »
why fight a war if the intent is not to win ?
why attack if the intent is not to stop the enemy's ablity to make war (attack you) ?


It is not necessary to kill women and children or other noncombatants (i.e. wounded, elderly, crippled) to either win or stop the enemies ability to make war. It is especially not necessary in the wars in which we're currently engaged; the rules of engagement are much stricter than that though, and therein lies the problem. Its called proportionate response - eye for an eye, not head for an eye. And I am one of the few on this board with first hand experience at the failure of the present ROE, and how it cost my men their lives, but neither I nor they would advocate annihilation as some have suggested here.


For those willing to sacrifice their soul for mere survival, you do not know what winning is, because all you've put forward is might makes right, and that means if evil has the bigger force, comes in and kills your family, you believe they are just. Remember that when it happens, should you be on the little end of that equation ... they are just, and when they decimate the women, children, elderly, wounded, handicapped ... its okay, but they are merely stopping our ability to fight and making sure our children don't grow up to fight back.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2012, 04:03:43 AM »
so what was the proportionate response to 9/11 where the enemy killed all the types you claim should not be killed ? eye for and eye ?
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2012, 06:28:11 AM »
 
    Modern warfare is more about industrial power and output than fighting spirit.  In order to defeat a county in a modern war, you must destroy its industries and equipment, primarily by use of airpower.  And, unfortunately, that vast amount of industry is located in cities with very high civilian populations.  So, to bomb those industries, you are killing civilians, in wholesale numbers.
 
    In World War II, in a three day bombing spree on the city of Dresden Germany by U.S. and British bombers, we killed at least 50,000 innocent German civilians, in the resulting firestorm.   We didn't bat an eye.
 
   On the History channel last week, I saw a two hour special on Okinawa.  That documentary reported that in taking the Island, we killed not only 95,000 Japanese troops, but over 100,000 Japanese civilians.
 
   Say what you want about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we knew that about 100,000 civilians would be killed, and we didn't bat an eye.
 
   Why?   Because it is absolutely and totally unavoidable.  That is  the true horror of war.
 
    Mannyrock   
 

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2012, 10:36:58 AM »
Manny rock, we did bat an eye. I've read the biographies, and the history. Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima were stated moral compromises, inconsistent with the accepted moral war theory of the time. Americans were outraged, military folks were disheartened, collectively we did not feel good about it. We did it, but we did not do so without batting an eye. You grossly mischaracterized those events. We also with agonizing detail sifted through an array of options to minimize collateral damage because we wanted to maintain moral high ground.

Shootall, we've killed many times more of them than they killed on 911, does that satisfy you? And women and children while not targeted have been killed by us, are you happy? And we have destroyed countless times more families than all the 911 families, and all the families of our KIA in the process. Is your blood lust satiated? Not a single one of the widows of the 40 men I lost sees it your way; not one. How do you justify your need for revenge?
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »
Team Nelson,
 
  I don't know what Americans you've been talking to, but my father, my Uncle, and my father in law all saw combat in WWII.  My Uncle was at Okinawa, driving the landing craft.  And, my mother, and all of my grandparents, great uncles and great aunts lived through the events.
 
  None of them were "outraged" at the civilian deaths inflicted on either the Japanese or the Germans.  Not a single one.  And, when I see the newsreels of VE and VJ celebrations, I don't see any "outrage" reflected by the tens of thousand of people in those films either.   The only outrage I ever saw on U.S. civilian faces was their response at seeing the survivors of the Japanese prison camps upon their release.  Walking U.S. skeletons.
 
   Please let me know where all of this outrage by Americans was reflected?  Mass protests? Riots? New laws proposed or passed in Congress?  Military trials?   War crimes trials?  Sorry, it didn't happen.  And, after bombing the Japanese, we proceeded to promptly make the more powerful hydrogen bomb and produce more than 10,000 warheads, knowing full well what the consequences to civilians would be if we used even one of these weapons.
 
    I do agree, though, that the commanders who had to approved the missions were probably deeply conflicted, being professional soldiers of the old school.  Must have been really tough decisions to make.
 
Mannyrock

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2012, 12:20:13 PM »
Manny,


History records that the Germans advocated using Dresden as an excuse to throwing out the restrictions placed by the Geneva Convention ... many more of our parents and grandparents would've died had they done so. Ironically, they felt it best to hold the moral high ground and not stoop to our level. British and Americans who were unanimously in favor of stopping the 3rd Reich, only began to question our methods after Dresden. Churchill himself who authorized it, later distanced himself from it because he was morally ashamed by it and he suffered for it for the rest of his life.


As for Nagasaki, Hiroshima ... many in military service at that time were sickened by the death toll. Suicide, alcoholism surged, and reporting from medical and Chaplains of that time indicated a spike in questions about the morality of the war. This from men who volunteered after Pearl Harbor. Its been documented to death, and the military and political leaders who were behind the bombings suffered tremendously for the rest of their lives, professionally and personally, because of the stench of that action associated with their names. Suicides, divorce, mental breakdowns ... all over the place.


My job during the first Gulf war was to advise strategic bombing; we were given moral imperatives to minimize collateral damage as the targets were all military industrial, not personnel centers. We read, at length, the military history of Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima; the internal reports, and how they had shaped all bombing plans after that. We still live in the moral shadow of those atrocities ... our word, a military word, for the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians by an otherwise honorable profession. Its a collective shame we bear today - don't think for a second drones were to save american lives. They're to save american souls, because it distances the bomber from the consequences of pulling the trigger. And we have enough guilt and moral duress in our ranks.


I realize for most "total war" is a topic of discussion with a few beers from the comfort of a chair and the anonymity of the internet. I however live it, have lived it, since the early 80s, from various perspectives. Presently, my role is to advise battlefield commanders how to keep their honor intact while waging war, regardless of the ROE, because that's important to them; their own souls matter to them. They want to be able to go home to their wife proud, not bearing the guilt of innocent blood on their hands. As do our sons and daughters (my son and daughter are both in service) who joined to represent something honorable and good. On this very board I have railed against the stupid ROE that cost my CO, and several other people their lives, and my SgtMaj his legs. But that doesn't mean I'd advocate abortive combat, killing enemies in their infancy before they could wield the sword against us. That's horrific, and conduct unbecoming a US service member.


The reason why we don't engage in total war is because we still like to think we're the good guys ... bad guys kill innocent people, unarmed people, noncombatants.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 12:41:03 PM »
........if they contribute to the enemies war effort, they are combatants.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 01:10:23 PM »
........if they contribute to the enemies war effort, they are combatants.


Define "contribute." Like the villagers in the Patriot who were burned to death in the church for feeding and supplying their families? They would be combatants?


What about the little boy who was forced to ride his bicycle with an IED strapped to it up against my 7 ton to test the range of our counter IED system? He could've just said no and died on the spot instead of in a crater 50 meters behind our last vic.


What about the young woman who was opposed to AQI, but whose dearly loved brother was an active member, so she refused to tell us any information? But then was tortured near death by AQI because we talked to her.


Or the young couple who worked hard in their fields to grow crops to feed their family, some of which were AQI members?


Its all black and white when we use words like "contribute", but as history has indicated, our definitions of that term vary broadly. My guess you envisioned someone who is sympathetic to the cause, who provides material, training or information. What about someone who is caught in the middle, divided loyalties between their family and culture that they will still be a part of when we leave, or the strangers with the guns? That is the vast majority of noncombatants in this war we are fighting because we aren't fighting a country or a government.


And any absolute standard we use in war we must ourselves be willing to be subjected to.
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Total War/Totale Krieg
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2012, 02:14:03 PM »
...don't need to define it, if they contribute they are combatants. You can bring up all the scenarios you want, it doesn't change anything.
In each of your scenarios.......a choice was made by the individual. Agreed it may have been a coerced choice, but a choice was made. It could easily have gone the other way if they so chose.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME