Author Topic: Misfires, I'm really stumped on this one. (Read 1152 times)

CamionMorto · « **on:** August 08, 2012, 03:45:47 PM »

I have a handi-rifle with 3 barrels, 223, 357 Max, and 308 win.

I have absolutely no problems with the 223 and 357 barrels, but the 308 barrel misfires about 20% of the time. Sometimes when I re-cock the hammer and pull the trigger it will fire, sometimes it won't fire with 3 or 4 retries.

I've put 23 factory rounds through the gun and every one has fired.
I've put about 100 reloaded rounds through it and have about an 80-90% success rate.
I've tried different primers with the same results.
The 'misfiring' primers work with no problems in my other guns.
The primers are seated properly and when the case is in the chamber the head is flush with the chamber.
The firing pin on my handi-rifle definitely strikes the primer lighter than my a-bolt or vz-24.

Here's what's really stumping me. If I seat a primer with no bullet or powder, every single one fires. I full length re-sized a case and neck sized and fire-formed a second case and continually de-capped and re-primed each case with 40 or so of the offending primers and there were no misfires.

I have already sent the rifle back to Illion once for them to fix the problem, but it still exists.

Any ideas for me?

cjrjck · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2012, 04:01:29 PM »

So the gun has no problem with the other two barrels. The .308 barrel works fine with factory loads but not reloads. That would seem to indicate some problem with the .308 reloads to me by simple deduction. Normally assuming everything else is fine, I would start with the die setting. Perhaps you are unknowingly pushing the shoulder back too far. Why a primed case will fire every time I do not know. Have you tried a reloaded neck sized round? Some of my .308 based Handi rifles have very generous chambers.

CamionMorto · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2012, 04:12:53 PM »

I'll try reloaded neck-sized rounds as my next move. I'm also going to try out a couple of boxes of factory rounds.

If both of those loads don't have problems then I'll assume that the sizing die needs adjustment.

RPRNY · « **Reply #3 on:** August 08, 2012, 04:29:01 PM »

http://www.lewilson.com/casegage.html

Just a thought.

Alternatively, are you comfortable with barrel fitment for the .308 to the receiver? Perhaps slightly more of a gap than ideal? If it has gone back to Ilion (barrel and receiver), based on my experience with the techs there, I doubt this is the issue.

What about powder? Do you have an alternate .308 powder that you could load 20 rounds with (same primers) to see where that gets you? If you are getting ignition on primers (without powder), perhaps your powder is temperamental? Factory = fine. Primer alone = ignition. Head-spacing seems (gage query above) okay. Next stop: powder.

Jimbow4570 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2012, 01:43:14 PM »

Just for HAHAs...try reloading some cases that have fired and are "fire formed" Don't size them at all.
Maybe the chamber lets the case drop in Juuust too far and its out of the reach of the fireing pin. I had a bud who had this, and rather than re-chamber and all that, he just punched out the primer with a nail, re-primed, and charged then fit the bullet. That solved his problem...maybe not solve yours....JMHO.
-Jimbow4570

gendoc · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2012, 01:50:12 PM »

take some your store bought spent cases and prime with win wlr's, charge it and seat your bullet
like you like.....
like jimbow says... dont run it thru tha resizer...
then see what you come up with.

CamionMorto · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2012, 03:18:04 PM »

Quote

take some your store bought spent cases and prime with win wlr's

Are WLR's softer than the CCI's that I have been using? I'll use them with some fireformed cases and see if that takes care of the problem. I'm hoping it's just my sizing die and not a problem with the gun. It's one of my favorite rifles and I was hoping to take it out deer hunting this fall.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2012, 04:23:28 PM »

Camion,

Take a couple of your resized brass and prime them and then chamber and fire them. IF you have excess headspace the primers can back out of the pockets enough for you to feel them with your finger or check with a straight edge. If the primers are backing out of the pocket then your size die is probably turned down a tad too far.

BB

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:32:42 AM »

I agree,
It sure sounds like a HS problem and more specfically your resized cases. I have a couple thoughts..

1) Go I would back to basics,
I would double check the fit of the barrel to the receiver. (Yes I know its been back to the factory.... I learned long ago, NEW dosen't mean correct all the time) Refer to the FAQ's on the proper proceadure.

2) Then to the reloading proceadure, disassemble and clean the re-sizer die, re-assemble and set it up for your press. Using a smoked case that was fired from the chamber is question. (This can be found in most loading manuels. I like the Lyman) As suggested, you want to be sure you are not moving the cases shoulder.

3) Lastly, what about those primers? Are or could they be contaminated in some way? Personally, i will never actually touch a primer. Some may consider this overkill and say finger oils cannot contaminate. I simply prefer to remove all doubt and use tweezers if I need to actually pick one up.

Hope you can figure this out, I know how frustrating it can be.

Good luck,
CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 14, 2012, 06:01:12 AM »

Shoulder is likely setting back too far with the dies adjusted the way you have it. It seems good for fit when you load but then the f-pin strike pushes the case farther in. Your f-pin protrusion may be a bit on the marginal side, many are. If all you have done to set the resize die is crank it into touch the shell holder you need to back it off, resize a case, fit the case in the chamber and slowly adjust the die downward until the case just fits flush, or a tad more. CCI's are harder by many reports, too, but I bet they work if you do the above.

spooked · « **Reply #10 on:** August 14, 2012, 07:33:42 AM »

If a lighter firing pin strike is your problem you can get a stronger Wolf brand spring from Brownells..

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** August 14, 2012, 10:58:14 AM »

Wolff extra power springs are available from Midway also, as well as direct from Wolff, if you need more than one, Wolff has the best buy, see links in the FAQs, you'll need the single coil for any modern H&R.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2012, 11:29:25 AM »

But if it works with factory cartridges it is something else than the spring.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2012, 12:24:53 PM »

I agree, BUT we all know that the factory springs are not the best...

IMHO its a good idea just because.

So, CamionMorto, Any updates here?

CW

CamionMorto · « **Reply #14 on:** August 14, 2012, 03:37:13 PM »

I won't be able to get out to the range until at least this weekend. I figure what I'll do is try neck sizing my fireformed brass and taking it to the range. That should keep the headspace correct and rule out the sizing die as the problem if I get misfires with those right?

Everything on the gun seems to fit well, and like I said that particular barrel was sent back to Remington and "fixed". The only issue that I see when shooting 308 versus the lighter recoiling rounds is that sometimes it's very hard to press the release lever after firing a round.

Should I buy stiffer springs no matter what? Is there a downside to using heavier springs? If not I'll pick up a set for extra insurance.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2012, 03:43:44 AM »

How are the f-pin impressions in all the other calibers that go off fine? If they are not light strikes/right on the edge of being acceptable, but good, then the spring isnt a problem. There is no downside to putting a Wolff spring in, or having it as a spare until you have occasion to get inside. As they say,'do what trips your trigger'

.
Hope your test is definetive, but remember, many people have trouble with just neck sized brass after only a few firings (not so much with light, low pressure rounds, moreso with heavier loads). You do need to find that die adjustment that makes the brass really fit your chamber.

CamionMorto · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2012, 10:13:33 AM »

I went out to the range today with 34 rounds of neck-sized only brass using both CCI and WLR primers. All of the rounds fired without a single misfire. The indent on the primer looks to be slightly larger on these rounds compared to the other ones. I'm just about positive that I was pushing the shoulder too far back on the full-length sized rounds.

Also my extra power spring came in from wolff today and I'll install that as an extra measure just to ease my mind.

Still doesn't explain why I couldn't get the rifle to misfire on full-length sized brass with only a primer, but I'm still pretty positive that my sizer wasn't adjusted properly.

Thanks for the help guys.

handirandy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2012, 10:27:49 AM »

Just one more thing to check. Are you utilizing a heavy roll crimp? If so you could be moving the lead of the shoulder back enough to cause hs issues. Have you tried pushing a flush case in to see if it will go in farther. The firing pin may be pushing it deeper into the chamber after lockup upon firing.

CamionMorto · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2012, 11:19:05 AM »

The ones that were misfiring had no crimp. The neck-sized ones did because I didn't feel there was enough neck tension. The neck-sized ones are the ones that fired fine, so I don't think that the crimp made a big difference.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2012, 12:57:19 PM »

Most likely the only neck tension you need is enough that the bullet doesnt pull out easily by fingers. Yeah, I know some guys say they get better accuracy with a firm crimp, but for me, if its stuck in the neck and chambers up to the rifling OK, then doesnt pull out when I unload it will probably work fine.