Author Topic: First Post, Info on Yacht Cannon (Read 3706 times)

Road King · « **on:** August 10, 2012, 01:26:24 PM »

Wow what great site.

I have just aquired an interesting small cannon and would really like to get some information on it. It is a B&H Yacht Cannon by the Naval Electric Company. It stands about 15" high and has a 14" barrel. It is chrome or nickel plated brass components. The bore measures 1" and the breach is larger then an 8 gauge. I assume that it is a Signal Cannon for Yacht races or for warding off Barbary Coast pirates

. Anybody got any Idea of the DOM or information on the maker? Any idea of value? Any books that may have some info on these? Since I taken the photos I have realized that the barrel was in the trunions upside down and have corrected this.

Fits with collection of small cannons

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »

Road King -

WELCOME to the board! Cool new toy! Looks like it fits in to your collection well.

I'd wondered about the term 'yacht cannon' as it was used commonly by my folks and their folks. The label clearly defines it. (Yes, they did use it in reference to starting boat races.)

Could you post a pix of the chamber & firing mechanism in different postions? (I'm curious.)

Road King · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2012, 03:02:44 PM »

Here are some photos of the breach and I assume how it was fired by pulling a rope attached to the hammer $:-\$

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »

A 1" bore is about 4 gauge.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:20:17 PM »

Hello Road King. What is the diameter of the chamber at the breech? You're yacht gun is equipped with a shell extractor, but the bolt to operate it appears to be missng. I enlarged your photo to try and view the firing pin where the slap hammer would strike it , but can only make out an indentation there. Would you post a photo of the breech face showing the opening where the firing pin extends to strike the primer? I'm thinking that it might be jammed, or missing.

Road King · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2012, 01:10:33 AM »

The diameter of the breech is 1.0665 andthe bore diameter is .9980. The length of the chamber is 4". The strange part is there is no firing pin in the breech cover as you can see by the photos. This is one reason that I would like hear from someone who has information on these cannons. Is the breech cover that is with the cannon the correct one? Is there something missing? What would the shell have looked like?
I am working on freeing up the extractor and would like to see what the original hand knob would have looked like.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2012, 03:31:42 AM »

Delete

intoodeep · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:09:58 AM »

Road King,

That's a nice little signal gun. As GGaskill stated this would be a 4Ga. signal gun. What you have is an earlier model. The Naval Electric Company was founded in 1904 by Hall. It later changed to the Naval Company. The Naval Company is still in business in Doylestown, PA. They now longer produce items like this but, they currently make shoulder fire line throwing safety guns.

Below is a link for a video showing a newer style signal gun that was manufacture by the Naval Company. I know that it's not exactly the same as yours but, it will give you an idea of what the breech actually looked like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VfGTxJnF9I

Hope this helps.

Also, here is a photo of a later Naval Co. gun.

de_lok · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:34:40 AM »

Another similar cannon that appears to be from the Naval Company...................

flagman1776 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2012, 05:00:54 AM »

good info. better than I found

Road King · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2012, 05:51:03 AM »

Thanks "intoodeep" thats good information. I have also been told that they produced these and similar cannons up to about 1930. A few other items I have found are;

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=915441

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/message/28800 ( I have tried to contact this person)

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20090911/news/309119991

This one sounds like mine

"EBAY SCRIPT"
Great item,just as described,great packing job, very fast shipping. Thanks AAA++
Member id obcesso ( Feedback Score Of 790)
Sep-29-10 06:34
B&H Yacht Cannon Hotchkiss Naval Elec Co Signal Salute (#300469059798)
US $4,300.00 "

I would really like to see images of either one of these items if anyone has any suggestions.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:06:16 AM »

It would appear that the breech block is a replacement.

Road King · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:32:44 AM »

If the breech block is a replacement it is brass and plated the same as the rest of the cannon. There is plack powder residue on the inside of the block.

Maybe it was supplied with the cannon as a safety feature but why would it be machined to slighty fit the breech?

??

There has to be photos or advertisements of these cannons somewhere. I am still seaching through my books looking for the missing pc to this puzzle.

I did contact Robert Albrecht cannoncollector.com and he was very vague with information other then he wanted to buy it

flagman1776 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2012, 07:16:26 AM »

Can't fire it with cartridges without a firing pin. Can't fire it as a muzzleloader without a vent (touch hole). It might have been a non-firing sales sample or it might have been disabled & the breach block removed for safe keeping. If this were to be restored to operating condition, it should fall under ATF rules as a Signal Cannon, obsolete amunition, unlikely to be used as a weapon, however it might be prudent to get an ATF letter prior to restoration. Perhaps that is why the original live fire breech block is missing.

Before the advent of safes, a lot of rifles were sold missing the bolts which the former owner (often diseased) had hidden to render it safe & now the spouce can't find it.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/signal-cannon

The link isn't working Google B&H yacht cannon
http://books.google.com/books?id=6Kk6AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=B%26H+yacht+cannon&source=bl&ots=dHwE9zRCoz&sig=b2JrPjf6H1_zye42FxlAhptAbw0&sa=X&ei=1JcmUKyVNofm2QXvoICgCg&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=B%26H%20yacht%20cannon&f=false

Cannoneer · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2012, 08:23:15 AM »

Quote from: Road King on August 11, 2012, 06:32:44 AM

If the breech block is a replacement it is brass and plated the same as the rest of the cannon. There is plack powder residue on the inside of the block. Maybe it was supplied with the cannon as a safety feature but why would it be machined to slighty fit the breech???
There has to be photos or advertisements of these cannons somewhere. I am still seaching through my books looking for the missing pc to this puzzle.

I did contact Robert Albrecht cannoncollector.com and he was very vague with information other then he wanted to buy it

I knew upon viewing last night that there was no firing pin, but I had to check with you to make sure, because that just didn't make any sense. This is pure supposition on my part (and yours), but I came up with same explanation that you did; I think that breech plate came with the gun to replace the functional breech when not in use, simply as a safety measure meant to keep unauthorized folks from fooling with it. I don't believe it's very likely that you're going to find a functional replacement breech, so if you want to operate the gun you're going to have to get a machinist to duplicate one. Here are a few photos that will give you an idea of what the breech should actually look like.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2012, 08:33:16 AM »

The slot shows where the handle broke of the shell ejector mechanism.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2012, 11:17:34 AM »

Cannoneer,
Thanks for the great pictures.
Again, purely specualtion, but we all know of percussion nipples peened over, firing pins broken (yes some guns will) so a piece like this which might be on display between uses might have a protective cover substituted. From the hammer marks, it looks like that was a wise move!
Great piece of Americana. Wish it were mine.
Fm

Quote from: Cannoneer on August 11, 2012, 08:23:15 AM

Quote from: Road King on August 11, 2012, 06:32:44 AM
If the breech block is a replacement it is brass and plated the same as the rest of the cannon. There is plack powder residue on the inside of the block. Maybe it was supplied with the cannon as a safety feature but why would it be machined to slighty fit the breech? ??
There has to be photos or advertisements of these cannons somewhere. I am still seaching through my books looking for the missing pc to this puzzle.

I did contact Robert Albrecht cannoncollector.com and he was very vague with information other then he wanted to buy it

I knew upon viewing last night that there was no firing pin, but I had to check with you to make sure, because that just didn't make any sense. This is pure supposition on my part (and yours), but I came up with same explanation that you did; I think that breech plate came with the gun to replace the functional breech when not in use, simply as a safety measure meant to keep unauthorized folks from fooling with it. I don't believe it's very likely that you're going to find a functional replacement breech, so if you want to operate the gun you're going to have to get a machinist to duplicate one. Here are a few photos that will give you an idea of what the breech should actually look like.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2012, 12:49:28 PM »

"Great piece of Americana. Wish it were mine."

I'd like it too, flagman1776; but I doubt that I could better Robert Albrecht's offer.

Road King,
Sorry; I meant to include this on my last post: Have you tried removing the screw that holds in the ejector?

A few more pics.

Road King · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2012, 03:39:24 PM »

I've tried to remove the screw but like everything else it is seezed. I've been able to get everthing else to release but still have it (ejector) soaking in oil. I'm sure I will be able to get it to release.

I have rec'd word back from a guy that has one of these but he is not at home right now to send me some photos.

With regards to comments about getting ATF involved, I'm in Canada and don't need to unless I decide to take accross the border.

Not to worry Cannoneer not for sale at this time and R. A. hasn't made an offer, just interested if I decide to sell.

I am also off tomorrow to see the person that I got this from to see if he has any more parts to it.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:52:34 PM »

Note the lip on the bracket for the hammer.... that should give you the actual thickness that the breech cover should be. I wonder if this was done as a store sales sample this way patron's and their children wouldn't damage one up for sale playing with it..... they went to the trouble of plating it like the rest of the cannon.

GGaskill · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:03:42 PM »

The breech blocks on all of the other photos seem much thicker than the OP and the one of the OP does not fill the whole length of the retaining screws. I have to agree that it is a dummy substitute.

This looks like something that begs for good drawings.

Also, didn't Wes make a gun with a breech mechanism like this a while back?

Soot · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:31:08 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on August 11, 2012, 06:03:42 PM

Also, didn't Wes make a gun with a breech mechanism like this a while back?

Right here: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,94807.0.html

flagman1776 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:55:27 AM »

Quote from: Road King on August 11, 2012, 03:39:24 PM

I have rec'd word back from a guy that has one of these but he is not at home right now to send me some photos.

I am also off tomorrow to see the person that I got this from to see if he has any more parts to it.

If you can get pictures, even drawings, of missing parts it has to be very helpful.
++ By all means talk to the person you got the piece from & shake the tree about any missing parts. Who knows, you might get lucky & wouldn't that be nice!

Max Caliber · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:52:57 AM »

Heckler & Koch produces a modern style blank firing saluting cannon with a side-swinging breech block. It's the Model 635 in 75mm. Unfortunately, it is not for sale in the U.S.

moose53 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2012, 04:12:38 AM »

Thats more like it , Thanks for posting the photos

Cannoneer · « **Reply #25 on:** August 12, 2012, 10:32:04 AM »

Holy Zamboni, Max! At first I thought you were playing a prank, because there's nothing to reference size, but evidently you're not. Well, if H&K is actually making a 75 with a swing breech, then I'd guess that they're also probably charging around 250 Euros per millimeter.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** August 12, 2012, 11:25:40 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on August 11, 2012, 06:03:42 PM

The breech blocks on all of the other photos seem much thicker than the OP and the one of the OP does not fill the whole length of the retaining screws. I have to agree that it is a dummy substitute.

This looks like something that begs for good drawings.

Also, didn't Wes make a gun with a breech mechanism like this a while back?

He certainly did, in fact I can't recall any other member building a signal/salute gun of this type. He also borrowed very liberally from Messrs. Burdick and Hall's original breech design, as have other machinists making breech loading blank firing cannon.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,94807.0.html

Road King · « **Reply #27 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:13:36 PM »

Well I was able to clean the threads up on the bolts and in the breach and got the end plug to fit tight. Still working on the extractor, may have to use a little heat.
I haven't been able to get hold of the previous owner yet.

I agree withthe comments from GGaskill and KBAR2 wrt the thicker breech plug as shown in the other photos.
Cannoneer, that is very nice Signal Cannon you have

. Have you been able to date yours?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 13, 2012, 06:41:35 AM »

I think using the length of the bracket for the hammer, and the existing cap a new bronze breech could be machined it would have to include longer attaching bolts and at some point be plated.... while the plating will be a give away that the breech is newer than the rest of the cannon it would at least bring the value up to where it should be....

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2012, 08:04:32 AM »

Quote from: Road King on August 12, 2012, 02:13:36 PM

Cannoneer, that is very nice Signal Cannon you have . Have you been able to date yours?

Road King,

Those photos are from an auction, and I didn't even bother bidding, because I knew the price would reach a height I wasn't willing to climb.

As intoodeep already said, your gun has to be an early model. The placement of the ejector, the way the striker is attached, and the differences between the breeches (the later model has a shelf cast integral with the barrel, that the breech abuts when closed) suggest it's an early version.

I agree it's obvious that the working breech was thicker than the plate that's now on the gun, but the thickness (along with how far the firing pin mechanism extends rearward) is going to have to be gauged by where the hammer strikes. Even with that raised cylinder that's on the breech now, the hammer seems to be hitting high (at least judging by the marks on it).

There are two holes, one on each side at the rear of the barrel, and their locations seem to correspond with he screws that attach the breech to the barrel; are those holes threaded, or were they meant for pins?