Author Topic: Non-hybrid seeds  (Read 2963 times)

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Offline Dixie Dude

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Non-hybrid seeds
« on: August 15, 2012, 11:01:51 AM »
Does anyone know of a good website online that sells non-hybrid seeds, especially corn, and maybe wheat and oats?

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 03:28:34 PM »
Depending on where you are at, there may be a grain dealer whom you could get it from directly.  That also lets you inspect it prior to purchase.  If you live in an area that has an Amish or Mennonite Store, they may stock non-hybrids or you could check with local farmers to get a start.  A quick search came up with this place and a few others...
 
http://www.non-hybrid-seeds.com/nonhybridgrainseeds.html
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Offline Bugflipper

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 09:05:18 PM »
Molon labe

Offline Swampman

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 10:48:42 PM »
I don't think non-hybrid corn exist.......at least nothing that we'd recognize.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 02:21:33 AM »
Thanks guys.  Lots of non-hybrid corn varieties on those websites.  Guy in Money magazine said investment in farmland and commodities was something that will pay off in the future since food to feed the billions of people will be necessary.  Lots of idle farmland in America. 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 02:30:14 AM »
I guess my comment went unnoticed.  You need to research corn.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 03:15:18 AM »
  I get mine from rareseeds.com. They have heirloom corn seeds and test them for GMO contamination. They say it is getting harder and harder to get uncontaminated corn seed. To save your own seeds and keep them safe from GMO contamination you need to be 2 miles from others growing corn or cover the silk with a plastic bag. Collect your own pollen from your corn and pollinate your seed corn yourself. For wheat and oats I got organic seeds for sprouting. Don't know if they are non-hybird and don't plant them. Just keep them in case of SHTF or EOTWAWKI events.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 04:31:07 AM »
Not much corn is grown around my area.  Mostly cotton, soybeans, peanuts, and some home grown vegetables that people sell at farmers markets.  Lots of hayfields and cattle farming.  Hilly areas have been turned into pine tree/pulp wood forests.  A few large pecan orchards also.  Hmm, lots to think about. 

Offline charles p

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 10:09:42 AM »
I remember about 50 years ago we saved some popcorn for seed. 


I had no idea that any non-hybrid corn was available.  Bet the yield is not very good so get more seed than you think you will ever need.  Might be cheaper to stock up on  canned corn, especially if you think you might need to irrigate your plot someday.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 10:46:16 AM »
Yep, productivity might not be as good as hybrid, but it would be self sustaining.  Anyone order any non-hybrid seeds for any of their garden needs?  If so, is production and taste ok? 
 
Anyone vacuum seal the seeds for storage?  I've heard they last a long time in the refrigerator in a sealed bag.  I'm thinking for post SHTF time.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 11:14:25 AM »
Store in a cool dry place.  DRY being most critical.  I'd avoid refrigerators or freezers due to condensation.  If you use dry seed boxes as they sell on those sites I that were linked, you would be best to store them where they are away from UV, cleaners etc. also.  This will make the packaging last as long as possible.  ;)
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also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline Buckskin

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 11:37:12 AM »
You would be better off planting hybrid corn. It is a misconception that hybrid corn will not produce seed, it will be very variable, but you will get a crop.  If you ever look out into a soybean field that has volunteer corn out there, that is hybrid corn and ask any farmer about it and they will tell you that it produces plenty of seed... Probably more than the heirlooms would...
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Offline m-g Willy

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 02:34:30 PM »
SEEDSAVERS.org
btw-About using seeds from hybreds?
Talked to the guy at the greenhouse , and he said he planted 20 tomato plants from hybred seeds fronm the last year.
Out of 20 ,,TWO grew and neither plant produced any fruit.
 
 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 03:09:38 PM »
That's because they revert to the original plant which may not even be edible.  All the corn we currently use is hybrid and has been since before white men arrived in North America.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 04:07:43 PM »
SEEDSAVERS.org
btw-About using seeds from hybreds?
Talked to the guy at the greenhouse , and he said he planted 20 tomato plants from hybred seeds fronm the last year.
Out of 20 ,,TWO grew and neither plant produced any fruit.

 
That's kind of funny... Because I planted 3 tomato plants this year and now I have 6... Three self seeded from last year and they started growing two weeks after I planted the store bought plants.  I probably had at least 20 start, but I pulled most of them.  The self seeded plants are about 2 times the size and have many more fruits than the planted ones.  Problem is they are in odd spots and crowding out my pickles... Although I have 8 gallons of pickles already pickled anyway...
Buckskin

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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 04:21:15 PM »
The problem with round 2 hybrids is that they usually lose any protections they have naturally from pestilence in the form of disease or vermin, ie. bugs.  Much of hybridization of plants is to obtain specific characteristics of their fruit or stalks, but moreso it's often to help them avoid common problems such as rusts, molds and fungi's.  These will typically wipe out large chunks or all of a crop of re-used hybrid seeds.  Also, it's hit or miss, as some stated, whether they would grow at all, so while not necessarily impossible to get another crop, you may get a weak, undersized crop or have one wiped out by common pestilence.  Starting with organics means that you only have the natural resistences that the plant has obtained genetically from it's lineage over a long period and as long as new pestilence isn't introduced to the areas being planted, they should remain fairly consistent in output.  ;)
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also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline charles p

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 06:16:47 PM »
I had a watermelon that volunteered in my garden once.  When I cut it, it was yellow on the inside.


Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 07:38:08 PM »
That's because they revert to the original plant which may not even be edible.  All the corn we currently use is hybrid and has been since before white men arrived in North America.
I believe you are confusing open pollinated and hybrid Swampy. The indians did not inbreed corn stock back and then pollinate from one plant to another by detassling and saving only the female plants seed. Natives and whites both selected corn seed from the plants that most accurately displayed the traits they wanted. They were at the mercy of what mother nature gave them to work with. Modern hybridization is an all together different animal.
 
On to the rest of the posters ? Very few crops are actually hybrids they are what is refered to as cultivars. To actually make a hybrid cucumber would take a TON of work same for most other vegetable crops. Same goes for wheat and soybeans. Genetically engineered does not have to mean hybrid either.
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Offline keith44

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 07:56:11 PM »
I have been using Victory Seed company, lots of old Heirloom varieties and a wide selection of almost anything you could want to grow.


http://www.victoryseeds.com/


The heirloom corn I planted this year ( [size=78%]http://www.victoryseeds.com/corn_golden-bantam.html[/size] ) was the equal of Silver Queen planted by my grandfather 15 miles away.
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 03:15:43 AM »

On to the rest of the posters ? Very few crops are actually hybrids they are what is refered to as cultivars. To actually make a hybrid cucumber would take a TON of work same for most other vegetable crops. Same goes for wheat and soybeans. Genetically engineered does not have to mean hybrid either.

 
Ahhh, when you mentioned soybeans it came back to me about cutlivars. Soybeans can be planted from your seed although illegal.
 
That would make sense for my tomatoes also... Another interesting thing about these tomatoes is that I had severe rust issues last year, this year - some rust on the 3 plants that I bought and nothing on the self-seeded plants...
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 05:27:48 AM »
Thanks guys, these locations are great.  I like the idea of the canned seeds for storage from Victory seeds.  I am looking at retirement soon, and we want to find a few acres to build a home, garden, maybe raise some animals and prepare for what might be coming down the pike. 

Offline reliquary

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 10:42:04 AM »
Well, color me pragmatic, but I use all kinds of approaches in my hobby gardening.  I have no fear of GM stuff and don't do any research into what's what, other than the division between hybrid and open-pollinated. I store and use both kinds.  My philosophy is, that in SHTF, we'll all use anything we can get out hands on.
 
 I bought a "garden-in-a-can" from Emergency Essentials, just because it was there.  Also, I keep a box of various locally-purchased and catalog-ordered seeds of all kinds in the freezer, and every couple or three years I roll that over into the garden, plant it, and then replace it.  Plus, I buy seeds by the pound bags from local feed stores as end-of-year specials and keep them in the vegetable box of a spare fridge, for use the next year or in SHTF.  I hit Wal-Mart at the end of spring and buy individual packs of seeds as they go on special, and store them in the crisper, as well.  When they get old, I plant them in unused corners and get at least some use out of them.
Most of the peas and tomatoes that come up "volunteer" in my plot are indistinguishable from the parent plants.  I have had a few sterile tomato plants...not sure why.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 12:11:38 PM »
A person would be wise to start practicing collecting and storing seeds for future use if that is the road they intend to travel. Buying new every year sort of defeats the purpose. Now would be a good time to find out a seed needs to be scarified or cold treated rather than when things turn sour and you have no second spring to look forward to.
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Offline BeanMan

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 04:21:56 PM »
A world full of misinformation is out there.  All of our seed stocks have arisen from a hybrid cross at some point in time. Even Heirlooms.  Self pollinated plants like Dry Beans (I'm a pinto bean seedsman, only have 12% of the market share in the US with my varieties, or cultivars if you wish to call them that) and soybeans will segregate for a few generations after the hybrid cross and then settle down into  a stable population that some people might call 'open pollinated'.  You can legally plant back any of my pinto varieties, for your own use, and get about 99.9% stable lineage, the .1% would come from outcrossing, cross contamination, and mutations.  You just can't take my seed and sell it as a named  seed.  Eat away, for generations if you care to. 

Offline cjclemens

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2013, 11:30:57 AM »
Not all of our seed stocks come from hybrids, in the sense that lines were intentionally crossed. Obviously, some populations may have naturally crossed in nature, but the probability of that is exceedingly low in self-pollinated crops like beans, tomatoes, and peppers. This is especially true for tomatoes and peppers, because they tend to pollinate before the flower even opens. Mendel didnt start his work with basic genetics until the mid 1800's, and it wasn't until the 1950s that his work was applied to crops. Prior to that, varieties were developed by basic phenotypic selection over many years.  Some heirlooms date back to the 1800s - well before plant breeding was even thought of.  Very few vegetable crops in your seed catalog are hybrids. If they are, it usually says so in big bold letters and they tend to be pricey, because of the R&D that goes into producing them. Saving seed from hybrids is not effective, because you end up with a bunch of poor performing off-types. Open pollinated varieties are good for seed saving because they come from a stable population. Commercial growers use hybrids, because they are looking for uniformity and for a few specific traits that add value to their crop.  However, open pollinated, public varieties of ALL crops are still available (including soybeans) for anyone to grow.  It is legal to save seeds from these, an replant them if you wish. As far as seed saving goes, do a little research before you fill a bucket of seeds and tuck them away. Not all seeds have the same shelf life, and not all seeds require the same conditions for successful storage.

Offline BeanMan

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2013, 05:18:16 AM »
A hybrid origin does not mean that they were intentionally crossed.  All of the heirlooms have had a cross in their background, just not by human hands.  Of course it would be difficult to prove that...

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2013, 08:33:28 AM »
A lot of heirloom seeds were saved from the biggest and best ear of corn or pod of peas.  Then replanted, and biggest and best saved again.  This is not a hybrid, but getting the best and strongest genetic plant.  What today we mean by hybrid, is man crossing two different plants to get a good yeilding crop, but the crop itself might not be able to reproduce.  What man does is to plants is like crossing a donkey with a horse to get a mule which cannot reproduce.  Man made hybrids might not be able to reporduce, but heirloom seeds, taking the best of the best to replant is still the same plant, just the strongest version of the plant.  So called indian corn that has very colorful kernels, but man found out the white and yellow ones tasted best, so they only planted the white and yellow ones to get modern corn.  I bought my supply of heirloom seeds.  I might try some this spring.  Recently had a heart attack, so my gardening might be limited this spring until full recovery.  Doing good though, loosing weight and brought my colestrol and trigliserides way down. 

Offline cjclemens

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2013, 04:55:28 PM »
Quote
A hybrid origin does not mean that they were intentionally crossed.  All of the heirlooms have had a cross in their background, just not by human hands.  Of course it would be difficult to prove that...

Neighboring plants pollinating each other does not necessarily constitute a hybrid.  A hybrid is a cross between two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera.  In nature, neighboring plants are usually from the same local population (variety).  For a hybrid to be made, two different populations would need to cross.  That's an extremely rare event, because plants are not particularly mobile.  Therefore, when talking about plants, hybrids come almost exclusively from human activity.  Heirlooms were developed through repeated selection for desired trait(s).  The term "hybrid" does not describe a hypothetical cross that may or may not have happened sometime in the past.  Heirlooms are not hybrids, or hybridized in any way, shape or form.


Quote
What today we mean by hybrid, is man crossing two different plants to get a good yeilding crop, but the crop itself might not be able to reproduce.  What man does is to plants is like crossing a donkey with a horse to get a mule which cannot reproduce.

Man made hybrids DO produce viable seed.  That seed, however, is undesirable, because the resulting progeny is highly variable and rarely represents the parent plant.  Heirlooms do not do that because they come from a stable population.  To do that with a hybrid, it would take several years of selection to stabilize the cross.  Rather than spend that time, plant breeders just make the cross again to produce new seed.  Mules are a good example of animal hybrids, but they are sterile for a completely different reason altogether.  You'll have to look that up, if you want to know more about it.  I know plants, not animals.

Quote
Recently had a heart attack, so my gardening might be limited this spring until full recovery.  Doing good though, loosing weight and brought my colestrol and trigliserides way down. 

Im glad to hear you're doing well.  Hope ya have a speedy recovery!

Offline goodshot

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2013, 03:55:55 PM »
Before Grandpa switched to hybrid corn , it was common practice to save the best of your ears of corn for seed.

Offline Buckskin

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Re: Non-hybrid seeds
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2013, 03:13:08 AM »
Neighbor wasn't planting any Roundup ready corn but was using Roundup ready soybeans, which meant he could use Roundup on his beans to take care of the volunteer corn.  That didn't work so good... Since my brother had planted Roundup ready corn across the fenceline. Neighbor sprayed about 100 acres of beans and the Roundup only knocked out a small portion of his volunteer corn problem... So yes, it does happen.
Buckskin

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