Author Topic: THe greatness of America..what happened? (Read 2164 times)

ironglow · « **on:** August 15, 2012, 11:39:46 PM »

Those of us who are old enough to have lived through the "war years" (WW2)..even though children then..have seen the America which others can only catch passing glimpses of. Today many, not having experienced that time, tend to laugh at TV shows such as the "Waltons" or the world of Norman Rockwell, ....the dust bowl, the times when most lived below today's poverty level...a the time when many people bathed twice a week and attended church 4-5 times in that same time period. A time when death by disease or accident was more common, but death and injury by neighborhood crime and violence was extremely rare. A time when honesty in dealing (with a handshake) was the overwhelming norm....and the crooked had to "stay on the move".
Here, Dennis Prager nails it..what made America great and how that greatness is being squandered..a Less than 9 minute video, but enlightening; to say the least.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUc8nuo7HI

billy_56081 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2012, 02:03:50 AM »

It has been given away in programs to the liberal parasites. The socialist left has learned that they can win elections buy making more parasites dependent upon government. They have also infected the youth through our primary schools and colleges. They have waged a campaign against America being exceptional. This we are still an exceptional country as all one has to do is look at this summers Olympics. But we are faltering on the edge of doom. If BHO is reelected, he will be allowed to pick several new supreme court justices. If the court slides any further to the left, our constitution and our country is gone.

Victor3 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2012, 02:56:21 AM »

Hard as it is sometimes, I try to look on the bright side...

My Mother's parents came to the US from Finland in the late 20's because of crushing poverty in their country. They bought a few acres in Spokane, WA and raised chickens/eggs for sale. A few years later, all of their stock died of some disease and they lost everything. They moved to Mullan, ID and Grandpa got a job in the Morning mine (silver, lead & zinc). First day working he told Grandma "I'm never going down there again." But he did, six days a week until he died at 54. Grandma lived on his miniscule pension until she was 68, when neighbors called my Mom to tell her that Grandma couldn't care for herself anymore. Mom & Dad brought her to live with them in CA, where she died at 71.

And I gripe because my bonus has been reduced a bit.

I make it a point to visit old cemetaries with my family when we go on vacation. Kind of puts things into perspective when we see a family plot where ~50% of the graves are those of children. My heart goes out to them, even a century later.

Conditions in the US today do indeed suck in some ways compared to ~1950. However, my Great Uncle, excecuted by a shot to the head in front of his neighbors by Russian soldiers during the Winter War, might have concluded that we've got it pretty good here in the US today.

magooch · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2012, 03:02:41 AM »

Billy, you've nailed a lot of it. I believe a huge part of the change in our country is due to allowing the illegal foreign invasion which doesn't care for our culture. I also believe that drugs and the horrendous damage they have done are a big part of it.

Of course the prolific socialism is front and center at ruining our work ethic. I'm afraid that to think we can change human nature would be to hope that gravity would let up. We are caught in the inevitable cycle of democracy where indeed, our elected leaders have learned that they can continue to be elected by promising and providing more and more handouts.

This election will tell the story of either the possible restoration, or total demise of our once great country.

kynardsj · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2012, 03:09:11 AM »

Two P's are killing this country and what it's supposed to be. Politicians, especially the liberal ones, and having to be Politically Correct. Look at the two "P" words and politics are the base of both. Suck up to the parasites, oops there is another "P" word and you'll get their votes to stay in power and continue ruining this country. I have yet another "P" word for all of them. Piss on em !!

ironglow · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2012, 03:41:09 AM »

Quote from: kynardsj on August 16, 2012, 03:09:11 AM

Two P's are killing this country and what it's supposed to be. Politicians, especially the liberal ones, and having to be Politically Correct. Look at the two "P" words and politics are the base of both. Suck up to the parasites, oops there is another "P" word and you'll get their votes to stay in power and continue ruining this country. I have yet another "P" word for all of them. Piss on em !!

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Don't forget that totally false "P"..progressive ..which it is not!

We have had a an outstanding and exceptional nation for a couple hundred years. But the liberal.."progressives' have been working for several decades, trying to destroy what has been bequeathed to us by our brilliant founding fathers.
THey along with their Darwinist/athiest allies have just about destroyed the values, couth and decency which made this country great..and exceptional.
Alexander Tytler (Lord Woodhouselee) was likely "spot on":
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A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage
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If enough are foolish enough to re-elect Obama..we will havecompleted the cycle........back into bondage..

guzzijohn · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2012, 04:00:27 AM »

This is still a great country in most ways. At the moment I am enjoying the highest standard of living of my life. Water and air pollution are leaps and bounds better than 30 years ago. Autos are much more efficient and much safer than 30 years ago. For those with skilled training or at least a bachelors degree unemployment is under 5%. There are many other good thing happing at this time. I do not understand why so many here have such a defeatist attitude.

As for this quote:
"I also believe that drugs and the horrendous damage they have done are a big part of it."
Change the wording from drugs to drug war and I would agree with the statement.

GuzziJohn

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #7 on:** August 16, 2012, 04:01:48 AM »

I wouldn't look back on those years through rose colored glasses. There's more greatness in the US today than ever before, it's just taken for granted or ignored or overshadowed by current events.

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** August 16, 2012, 05:06:03 AM »

From Guzzi;
As for this quote:
"I also believe that drugs and the horrendous damage they have done are a big part of it."
Change the wording from drugs to drug war and I would agree with the statement.

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Guzzi;
You don't think illegal drugs have done any damage? please explain yourself.

ironglow · « **Reply #9 on:** August 16, 2012, 05:14:43 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 16, 2012, 04:01:48 AM

I wouldn't look back on those years through rose colored glasses. There's more greatness in the US today than ever before, it's just taken for granted or ignored or overshadowed by current events.

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Not as I see it, Conan.. Some here seem to equate greatness, with affluence and material comfort. Please read the OP..it did not speak of physical comforts, big houses or flashy cars..but more about the basic decency shown each other in the streets, business and personal dealings. I spoke not so much about gathering "things" to oneself, so much as being aware and helpful to others in genuine need. Murders were so rare as to require national headlines when one occurred..compared to today, when in a town like Chicago, where drive-by homocides and drug related murders are an "everyday affair".
No, I'm not in the "rose colored glasses" business and I readily admit science and technology have advanced over these last few decades..indeed, each generation of scientists and engineers stands upon the shoulders of their predecessor.
...But have WE advanced as human beings..do we honor having been created by God?
Are we kinder to our neighbors, do we truly respect the other's sincere faith..whatever it is? By "sincere", I don't mean anyone 'sincerely' trying to kill those of other faiths. Is "our word" still "our bond" ?
Frankly, our decency has deteriorated..we hear filth on TV & radio which we would not have heard a few, short years ago; language once normally confined to the "dregs" of humankind. Where is the "greatness" in that?
It seems we are materially advanced, but spiraled down into a spiritual mire...a mire from which we may find difficult to extract ourselves.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2012, 05:30:25 AM »

I'm not talking about material things. I'm talking about decency and accomplishment, etc, just as you say. I don't, for example, miss lynchings (there are people alive today who have witnessed them), truly dangerous factory and mining jobs, massive political scandals like teapot dome, governments of large countries bent on extermination, etc. Today's culture of invention and innovation is just amazing. There's so much good in the world today it's just breath taking.

Just one thing that comes to mind is medical technology. Some good friends and family would either be dead or crippled if it weren't for medicine today. The cooperation between countries that were once enemies is something to be thankful for. Our ability to get more from the earth than ever before (like oil and uranium) using much less destructive means. The list goes on and on.

Pick up the news paper and you might think we live in hell. I see it differently.

ironglow · « **Reply #11 on:** August 16, 2012, 05:35:47 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 16, 2012, 05:30:25 AM

I'm not talking about material things. I'm talking about decency and accomplishment, etc, just as you say. I don't, for example, miss lynchings (there are people alive today who have witnessed them), truly dangerous factory and mining jobs, massive political scandals like teapot dome, governments of large countries bent on extermination, etc. Today's culture of invention and innovation is just amazing. There's so much good in the world today it's just breath taking.

Just one thing that comes to mind is medical technology. Some good friends and family would either be dead or crippled if it weren't for medicine today. The cooperation between countries that were once enemies is something to be thankful for. Our ability to get more from the earth than ever before (like oil and uranium) using much less destructive means. The list goes on and on.

Pick up the news paper and you might think we live in hell. I see it differently.

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If you didn't view the video you likely missed the whole point..."things" are not what makes the person great.
Dennis Prager explained it so well in the video..yet said nothing of a materialistic nature..

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #12 on:** August 16, 2012, 06:42:56 AM »

We forgot God. This lead to disrespect for authority, civility, and taking care of your family, friends and neighbors. By everyone using Christian principles to live by, there was no need for big government programs for welfare, no need for the government to interfere in our personal and private lives. STD's were almost eliminated as well as a lot of childhood disease. Life was really like Mayberry, Father knows best, and Leave it to Beaver. I grew up in that era, if things were bad or whatever, no one talked about it around kids. We were taught America was the greatest nation ever, good always triumped over evil. Hard word was rewarded, lazyness was shunned. Being on any type of welfare was a shame. Guns were not locked up but left in a corner or in a drawer. Kids feared their parents punishment if they touched them over what the gun would do. Kids didn't date until they were 16. (Research shows kids have sex about 2 years after they start dating, so that means 18) Average age for marriage was boys 21, and girls 18. In 1960 research showed 90% of girls under 18 were still virgins, by 1970 it had reversed. I see 1963 when the Supreme court took prayer and bible reading out of public school the downfall began. Drugs, sex, Vietnam War, Johnsons "Great Society" program with welfare and food stamps, liberal idealistic thinking, all began to take it's toll on America. Communists realised they could not bring down America from without, but from within. They pushed their ideas on young people in order to take over journalism and education. They pushed evolution over creation. They got kids involved in drugs and sex. They pushed racial tension where there was none. By taking God out, the empty space was overtaken by wrong thinking and evil.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2012, 07:06:26 AM »

From Ironglow:

From Guzzi;
As for this quote:
"I also believe that drugs and the horrendous damage they have done are a big part of it."
Change the wording from drugs to drug war and I would agree with the statement.

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Guzzi;

You don't think illegal drugs have done any damage? please explain yourself.

Yes, I think some illegal drugs have done some damage but no where near the cost and damage that has been done by the war on drugs. The war on drugs has cost taxpayer billions with no impact on drug use what so ever. How many productive citizens have lost jobs due to drug arrests and prison time? How many families have been broken up due to the same? How many people have been ruined financially due to the war on drugs? Take one 10th or less of the money spent on the war on drugs and spend it on providing rehab instead and I believe that would have a much more positive impact and less drug use. What are the most abused group of drugs today, legal prescription drugs, not the illegal drugs. Why should a person be prosecuted, lose a job and possibly be imprisoned for smoking a joint on Saturday night? Why should we continue to support the cartels when weed could easily be grown in ones yard? I hope this helps you to see my point of view.
GuzziJohn

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2012, 07:35:59 AM »

GuzziJohn +1

More on the war on drugs
1) By making pot hard to get and expensive, it's created many markets for more dangerous drugs like meth, crack, and bath salts.
2) The institutions around the war on drugs have created a huge bureaucracy whose main business is to keep getting paid. They have no interest in ending the war on drugs because it would mean the end of a good job. Politicians think similarly.

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2012, 08:11:02 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 16, 2012, 07:35:59 AM

GuzziJohn 1

.....
..............................
2) The institutions around the war on drugs have created a huge bureaucracy whose main business is to keep getting paid. They have no interest in ending the war on drugs because it would mean the end of a good job. Politicians think similarly.

Bullseye !!
Two ways to end it.
A. Make every concoction of street drugs legal
B. Execute anyone in possesion of above.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2012, 08:21:06 AM »

Quote from BBF:
"Bullseye !!Two ways to end it.
A. Make every concoction of street drugs legal
B. Execute anyone in possesion of above."

I hope the above was meant to be tongue in cheek.
GuzziJohn

Old Syko · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2012, 08:47:33 AM »

I'm always fascinated by how clouded memories get when comparing "the good ole days" to present day trials and tribulations. The concepts of how things really were seem to become embellished beyond that which anyone who has actually lived in those times would recognize in any form other than their own deluded minds. Reality dictates there has been little change in people since the beginning of time. Every generation thinks the following generations are morally and ethically inept when compared to themselves and it is no more true now than it was for some of the earliest generations of humans.

My 87 year old father chuckles every time he tells of his grandfather wondering if society would survive more than another year or two due to the loss of so-called greatness, morality and ethics and these statements were made when dad was a kid. Maybe some need to climb down from their lofty perches, quit making unfounded claims of how the good ole days were and face their own failures. You see, if future generations do actually fail it is at least as much the fault of previous generations as present.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2012, 09:16:42 AM »

Drugs are probably a good topic for another thread, but I think the war on drugs is kind of like trying to put out a gasoline fire by spraying it with water and trying to smother it with oily rags. It only makes the problem worse to the point where it's out of hand.

There's a long tradition of mankind making intoxication a high priority. A few laws aren't going to change that.

My gosh, I can remember stories of WW2 submariners filtering alcohol-based liquid shoe polish through loaves of bread so they could drink the alcohol.

It seem ironic that some of the booze that's routinely made in prisons out of fruit juice fermented in washing machines is less dangerous than a lot of street drugs.

Lamenting the state of morality and social decay is documented in some of the oldest available ancient writings, such as those from ancient greece, like 4500 years ago.

There were some good things about the good old days. But let's not forget widespread famine, feudalism as a norm, cultures of political corruption and oppression, violent racism as a national norm, revolutions, world wars, religous intolerance on a scale at least as grand as it is today, and so on. I don't see where characther and decency has degraded much. If anything, we seem to get along better than ever.

ironglow · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2012, 04:32:32 PM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on August 16, 2012, 07:06:26 AM

From Ironglow:

From Guzzi;
As for this quote:
"I also believe that drugs and the horrendous damage they have done are a big part of it."
Change the wording from drugs to drug war and I would agree with the statement.

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Guzzi;

You don't think illegal drugs have done any damage? please explain yourself.

Yes, I think some illegal drugs have done some damage but no where near the cost and damage that has been done by the war on drugs. The war on drugs has cost taxpayer billions with no impact on drug use what so ever. How many productive citizens have lost jobs due to drug arrests and prison time? How many families have been broken up due to the same? How many people have been ruined financially due to the war on drugs? Take one 10th or less of the money spent on the war on drugs and spend it on providing rehab instead and I believe that would have a much more positive impact and less drug use. What are the most abused group of drugs today, legal prescription drugs, not the illegal drugs. Why should a person be prosecuted, lose a job and possibly be imprisoned for smoking a joint on Saturday night? Why should we continue to support the cartels when weed could easily be grown in ones yard? I hope this helps you to see my point of view.
GuzziJohn

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If STUPIDpeople were not buying the STUPID stuff, there would be no STUPID problem..

..But as we are so often informed, "YOU JUST CAN"T FIX STUPID". ...But the Chinese did!

guzzijohn · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2012, 02:40:42 AM »

Quote from Ironglow:
"..But as we are so often informed, "YOU JUST CAN"T FIX STUPID". ...But the Chinese did!"

What did the Chinese do?
GuzziJohn

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2012, 04:23:55 AM »

They certainly didn't fix their drug problem, and I don't think many Americans would hold China up as the model for how they want life to be.

magooch · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2012, 04:32:45 AM »

My reference about the loss of greatness for our country was not in terms of technological progress, but in the ethics of our politics, media and culture in general. That's not to say that everyone and everything has gone into the ditch, but it cannot be denied that politically we are at a place that would have been beyond anyone's imagination not so many years ago. We have a lame stream media that acts as an echo chamber and apologist for the most unethical and un-American administration ever. We have an unbelievable number of our poooopulation entirely dependent on government entitlements and to be clear, I don't include Social Security and Medicare in that category. I'm talking about entitlements that the recipients have not paid into. A great nation cannot survive with half of the people supporting the other half.

ironglow · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2012, 04:36:39 AM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on August 17, 2012, 02:40:42 AM

Quote from Ironglow:
"..But as we are so often informed, "YOU JUST CAN"T FIX STUPID". ...But the Chinese did!"

What did the Chinese do?
GuzziJohn

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They still have some addicts, but compared to the total Chinese population, it is much less proportionately than we have. Just a few points decline would be progress. It also doesn't help when people elect as president, one who in his book has bragged about using illegal drugs.
As late as the 1940s, China had opium dens on almost every corner...and many places in between. Here's some info as to how the Chinese handled their problem..
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The Mao Zedong government is generally credited with eradicating both consumption and production of opium during the 1950s using unrestrained repression and social reform. Ten million addicts were forced into compulsory treatment, dealers were executed, and opium-producing regions were planted with new crops. Remaining opium production shifted south of the Chinese border into the Golden Triangle region, at times with the involvement of Western intelligence agencies.^[47] The remnant opium trade primarily served Southeast Asia, but spread to American soldiers during the Vietnam War, with 20% of soldiers regarding themselves as addicted during the peak of the epidemic in 1971.
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Unfortunately, many of those addicts have been taken care of in China...then there were found enough suckers to keep the crack/pot fields growing in the far east.

In 2003 it was recognized that there were as much as 4,000,000 illicit drug users in China....

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2012, 05:51:47 AM »

4,000,000 is only about 2/10ths of 1 % of their total population. Japan got rid of their addicts by cutting their hair and fingernails, putting them in padded cells and making them go through "cold turkey". They either die or get over their addiction quick. It would be considered cruel and unusual punishment here though.

I've read somewhere, the chemicals used in making drugs, I think cocaine and crack cocaine, are only made by three companies. Two in the US and one in Germany. 90% of this chemical is shipped to Columbia throught front companies. If they wanted to get rid of this, they could get with Germany, and just stop the exports. Of course, it would eliminate some jobs at chemical plants. These drugs would become so expensive, noone could buy them. Maybe cocane should be lealised, controled, taxed, but not crack cocane.
I am on the border line on this one as far as legality.

Opium and opiates would be harder to control with the growing of poppies. Kind of like marijuana, both can be grown in the US. This is the ones that if you find a user, make them go through cold turkey to solve that problem. I am border line on legalising this drug as it requires needles or it can be drank like the old laudnium.

That only leaves marijuana, which should probably be legalised and taxed. It is addictive, but one can get over it. It slows a person down and relaxes them, so they probably wouldn't get violent.

The worse drug of all, is the methamphetimes. Once addicted, you can never really get off them. So, they should continue to be illegal and all DEA efforts should go into stopping these.

Maybe legalise marijuana first, compile records of accidents, etc, like alcohol related stuff, to see if legalising some of the other ones might be in order.

Strong laws for DUI of drugs like alcohol could be put in place. 80-90% of crime in America is drug related, from simple users getting caught, possession, to the big dealers. Stealing to pay of a habit is also a big problem. Make them be identified when buying by the pharmacy or seller keep drivers liscense records of who is buying like they are doing now with psudafed (sp). Limit purchases daily with a network on the computer system or something.

streak · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:02:38 AM »

" The greatness of America... what happened"?
Society has become too soft on those that ignore the laws of the land and complete disregard of the constitution by alot of the politicians!
The drug problem should have been curtailed when it first started to manifest itself here in tha U.S.! Look how Singapore has little or no drug problem.

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Old Fart · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:05:42 AM »

It's still there, you just have to look harder to see it these days.

Old Syko · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:21:16 AM »

You guys scare me. All this talk of the heavy handed government control of drugs as though you would condone such actions here, goes against everything this country was founded on yet certain people here seem to be in favor of such things. I suppose as long as some here are able to get their way, the means by which it happens doesn't matter. This thread started with the subject of depleted morals and ethics and quickly turned to a discussion that confirms nothing has been learned from the past.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #28 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:49:49 AM »

One good thing about the war on drugs is that it shows how futile this sort of control is. As an intellectual exercise, it's similar to the argument that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". In this case it's the drugs that are outlawed, and anybody that has the drugs is a criminal. As an enforcement activity, it's no different that prohibition of alcohol.

My conclusion is that it's obviously ineffective after about 40 years as policy, so why not end it.

If there are crimes committed that involve drugs, like vehicular homicide, burglary, etc, there are plenty of other laws that cover other offenses.

LSD was a fad that a lot of people tried, found it to be a really bad idea, then drug faded into the background to the point where its use doesn't cause many problems.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #29 on:** August 17, 2012, 08:57:52 AM »

That is why I think some drugs could be legalised, the ones that wouldn't be too hard to get off of. Very dangerous ones that can do permanent damage to the brain or body such as meth and LSD should be outlawed. Others legalise, tax, and have control that way.