Author Topic: THe greatness of America..what happened?  (Read 2155 times)

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Offline Old Syko

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2012, 09:11:38 AM »
One good thing about the war on drugs is that it shows how futile this sort of control is. As an intellectual exercise, it's similar to the argument that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". In this case it's the drugs that are outlawed, and anybody that has the drugs is a criminal.  As an enforcement activity, it's no different that prohibition of alcohol.
 
My conclusion is that it's obviously ineffective after about 40 years as policy, so why not end it.
 
If there are crimes committed that involve drugs, like vehicular homicide, burglary, etc, there are plenty of other laws that cover other offenses.
 
LSD was a fad that a lot of people tried, found it to be a really bad idea, then drug faded into the background to the point where its use doesn't cause many problems.


Exactly!  This duplication of laws is beyond asinine since legally you can only be convicted of one at a time. 


If we legalize even the worst drugs we will discover the problem to be self tending.  I know this for a fact since I've lost a brother to this very addiction.  Yes there is collateral damage.  But that damage is much less in the grand scheme of things than the alternative of exceedingly mindless laws that harm everyone.

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2012, 09:12:30 AM »
I don't think I agree with the idea that hard drugs should be the illegal ones. Cigarettes, for example, are known to be dangerous. Through very effective public service advertisements over a period of decades, everybody knows they are dangerous and what a smoker can expect from a lifetime of the habit. If they decide to continue smoking, why not let them, as long as it's not hurting others.
 
Same for drugs. If somebody wants to use herion, and they don't hurt anybody but themselves in the process, then I don't see anything wrong with it.

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2012, 09:30:52 AM »
I grew up during the years when LSD was popular, approximately 1967 thru 1972. Early on it was not illegal, but police were seeing weirder and weirder behavior in connection with the drug. So, I think, California made it illegal first, and the rest of the country followed. However, it was pretty easy to make so its use was not curtailed in the least.
 
Then people realized that there were "bad trips", flashbacks, suicides, violence, and a whole host of other problems. Word in the user community got around fast. It was even presented as dangerous in movie dramas where somebody committing a crime or killing themselves was high on LSD. Some celebrities died in connection with LSD overdoses. And that was the end of it. It faded about as quickly as it came on the scene.
 
Today we have the absurdity of high priced marijuana that people can't afford, so it's been replaced by far more dangerous but relatively cheap drugs like meth. Makes no sense.
 
I'm no drug user, and have seen much trouble from drug abuse. I personally condemn drug use, but as a matter of policy, what we have just isn't working.

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »
Did a little poking around and here is a sobering (pun intended) amount of money spent on the war on drugs. If you add what was budgeted in 2011 by the federal government and by the state governments the amount comes out to $1,716.77 EVERY SECOND!!! This does not count what is being spent by local governments and private industry UA costs. This amount of money spent and freedoms lost has to stagger anyone that considers themselves a conservative. How many of our freedoms have been eroded by the war on drugs? Makes the war on terrorism look like a kindergarden play in comparison. 
GuzziJohn

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2012, 09:52:50 AM »
The war on terror is another one of those oxymoronically named things. Go to Washington DC and notice how it's been in a state of permanent lock-down since 9/11. I used to freely go into the library of congress and use it. Today you need to pass guards and various detectors just to get in the building, then you need a photo id to get into the library itself. Those terrorists won that war. They did what every terrorist dreams of: get the target to over-react to the threat.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2012, 12:53:08 PM »
I am a conservative, and a Christian.  However, I am also pragmatic.  Maybe legalising some drugs and taxing them would cost less money than what we are doing, and making felons out of too many people. 
 
Back on topic, like I said, when you leave God out of the equation, bad things start to happen.  The absense of God is hell.  So, God doesn't force His way into your life, but letting Him come in an you begin to live an honest, peaceful, non-destructive life, prosperity begins. 

Online nw_hunter

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2012, 03:11:09 PM »
Simple!...........The same thing that has brought all great societies down. "Greed"We may have lasted a little longer than most, but if you study history, you'll see most have only lasted a few hundred years. You only have to look at what we elect as leaders to see the writing on the wall.

The most valuable thing a nation can lose is it's freedoms, and it's obvious we are losing them at an alarming rate.Only a free nation can be great! How many more freedoms do we lose before we lose the right to be called great?Our founders warned us! The greatest enemy we had to worry about was our own Government.When we lose all our rights those old Gent's bought for us, it won't be to some pimpled A--ed Camel Jockey  from the burning desert! It will be under the leadership of a B Obama or M Romney, and it will be our fault because we failed to see they were after the same thing, and passed up an opportunity to vote for people that really had the nations best interest at heart.We, as a whole have been voting our pocketbooks, and the purse is running on empty.

We the people are to blame because of our GREED and Complacency. That's the way I see it anyway ;)

 
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Offline magooch

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 04:26:33 AM »
I would agree to a part of that--complacency.  Those who would tolerate the proliferation of drugs by legalizing them for instance.  At some point, though, even the most complacent would have enough when little kids are fed the crap. 
 
As ineffectual and expensive as the war on drugs might seem to some of you, in my opinion it would be many times worse if we just give up.  Recently in my area, there was a spate of overdosing deaths from a very strong heroin.  This area now has fewer druggies.  Maybe the war should be waged on drug users as well as the providers and dealers and the penalty should be death.  Flood the market with poisoned drugs and let the war begin.  I believe the carnage would be much less than what now obtains.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2012, 05:00:16 AM »
As ineffectual and expensive as the war on drugs might seem to some of you, in my opinion it would be many times worse if we just give up.
expand on that a bit. Suppose we decriminalize marijuana - heck, just leave it alone, let folks grow their own if they'd like, and quit prosecuting/chasing the weed - how do you think that would be  many times worse if we just give up?

Quote
Maybe the war should be waged on drug users as well as the providers and dealers and the penalty should be death.  Flood the market with poisoned drugs and let the war begin.  I believe the carnage would be much less than what now obtains.
now doing something like that truly would justify murdering whoever comes implements the scheme, and all those who are their willing implements.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline ironglow

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2012, 05:10:03 AM »
  It must be a very helpless feeling..to be held captive by some stupid weed!
 
   Something like slavery, I suppose..
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Offline BBF

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2012, 05:26:40 AM »
Quote from BBF:
"Bullseye !!Two ways to end it.
A. Make every concoction of street drugs legal
B. Execute anyone in possesion of above."


I hope the above was meant to be tongue in cheek.
GuzziJohn

No it wasn't .
 
A. Would take the profit away from the criminals
B. Would clean up the criminals. No revolving prison doors for them.
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Offline BBF

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2012, 05:34:54 AM »
You guys scare me.  All this talk of the heavy handed government control of drugs as though you would condone such actions here, goes against everything this country was founded on yet certain people here seem to be in favor of such things.  I .................

Personally I don't give a rats curly hair what you do to yourself. What concerns me is what the addicts are willing to do to get at the stuff.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2012, 05:40:22 AM »
  It must be a very helpless feeling..to be held captive by some stupid weed!
It must be! Of course, in the context of this thread, such a declaration is a way of saying... "I got nuthin', so I'll just throw this out to try to put a little stink on, rather than discuss!"

Ironglow - yer poster - Is that our old propagandizer pal Jack Chick? Looks kind of like his work. He perfected his art trashing Catholics, didn't he?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Old Syko

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2012, 08:16:16 AM »
You guys scare me.  All this talk of the heavy handed government control of drugs as though you would condone such actions here, goes against everything this country was founded on yet certain people here seem to be in favor of such things.  I .................

Personally I don't give a rats curly hair what you do to yourself. What concerns me is what the addicts are willing to do to get at the stuff.


The part you may want to take a closer look at is the fact that we already have laws pertaining to such things.  Personally I'm for less government as opposed to duplication.

Offline finisher

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2012, 10:41:27 AM »
It's still there, you just have to look harder to see it these days.
*****************
I've traveled around quite a bit and always make a point of exploring beyond the tourist drags (miracle I'm still alive); and I have never been anywhere (even where possession for sales was once a death sentence) where drugs were not easily accessible within thirty minutes if one had the means.


Back on track: The "greatness" of America is a perception that is subjective and relative to the perspectives of others.


                       To go on living in the past longing for such a subjective ideology can be very unhealthy for ones mental and emotional state. I am grateful for having grown up in the United Sates as I am grateful to my mother and family who worked and struggled to provide for me and teach me right from wrong.


On this I have to ask myself, do the ends justify the means? You've heard me quote the old saying before" The road to hell is paved with good intentions"


Am I therefore  an ungrateful little child if if I harbor shame within my heart if I found out that my mother and family provided for me by the commission of swindling,  murder, and any other thing that was deemed necessary so long as the young ones (me) could be convinced that it was all done with the best intentions and ideological justifications.


Of course often times people are very easily able to philosophically justify anything in the short term but often forget the domino trail of past transgressions that led up to current events.


It is more so difficult for people to view their worlds through a broader perspective that includes more than the often unreliable sources of information which are run or controlled by those with whom our best interests usually are not first priority. To bank on such sources is to leave oneself open to deception and being led like lambs to a slaughter.


The reliability and availability of information also gives rise to "span of control" issues which is quite often the downfall of us all.
Trying to maintain power beyond ones physical span of control...hmmmm well that's a topic for another day, but as it relates to the "greatness" of America, I think quite an obscene amount of this practice has taken place by just about every one of us and I feel that this is quite possibly a major contributing factor for the "greatness" that so many throughout the world don't seem to see in us.


Very broad topic... very difficult to just put the answers in a "box" or to the "left" or to the "right" ;)

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2012, 12:29:57 PM »
People have come to think they no longer need God. They are finding out they are wrong, the fact presents itself in many ways.
 
A distinct lack of personal responsability. Kids are taught from an early age that too many things can be blamed for their own lack of integrity. This process continues until it's all to blame on the man keeping you down. How on Christs earth is someones wealth the reason I can't feed myself? You are poor because I don't pay enough tax? It's too hard to climb the ladder I'll simply break yours until we are even?
 
The US is built to reward innovation and hard work. Their are plenty of other countries where mediocrity are rewarded, not here. Here average output gets you below average returns, better than average output gets you geometricly better than average returns.
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Offline Brett

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 09:12:02 AM »
I think Empty Quiver is on the right track.  We started our down hill slide when we started to get too big for our britches and started pushing God aside.   When a nations people believe that they don't need God or that God doesn't even exists they are in for some hard times.   The Bible is chock full of examples, Judah, Israel, Babble, Sodom & Gomorrah.  The dance is coming to an end and we will soon have to pay the piper.   
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 03:25:55 PM »
Religiosity is studied extensively, and the current situation in th US is that it is the most pious country practicing western religions, except perhaps Ireland. The number of adults identifying themselves as Christian is just under 80%, and most of the remainder are unaffiliated. Of the unaffiliated, about half identify themselves as religious but unaffiliated with a particular religion. Bottom line is that all but about five percent of US adults identify themselves as religious to some degree.


What is declining is not a relationship with God, but a relationship with religion. Those are two different things.

Offline powderman

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2012, 04:33:08 PM »
The answer to the question in the OP can be explained in one word. LIBERALS. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 01:30:53 AM »
Lets not keep score in ballgames. Everybody wins. Nobody feels bad. Lets take God out of schools. Can't sin that way. Don't want to offend anybody that way. Lets make sure when we do play sports, winning the game is the most important thing there is, not good sportsmanship. Hollywood celebrities bouncing from mate to mate, and rehab to rehab, makes for good role models. Politicians doing more illegal stuff than the gangsters of the 20's and the 30's. M.Obama being proud of her country for the first time of her life, at 40. Really  Drugs  Easy money  Hey, if it feels good do it, if there's a mistake, we can abort it, or take a pill for it. Lets not teach our kids a work ethic, just give them $20-$50 and send them out. Hey, all you have to do is get a college education, and you can earn $100,000 a year. Really  God will make a correction in this country, and it ain't going to be pretty. gypsyman
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Offline mcbammer

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2012, 02:16:38 AM »
What  happened  ?   When   labels  started   saying   made  in   china   instead  of   made  in  the  USA.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2012, 02:36:49 AM »
Reagan said it best "Government isn't the solution, government is the problem".  It was our Supreme Court that took prayer and bible reading out of schools.  When I was in school, there was a Jewish girl, so when it was her turn to read, she always read out of the Old Testiment.  Jews weren't offended by prayer and bible reading.  I lived in Dearborn, Michigan from 1st to 3rd grade, lived next door to some Muslims from Syria.  They weren't offended by public school with prayer and bible reading.  It was the athiests who had it removed.  A minority of people, and arrangements could have been made for them to be excluded. 
 
Government caused the welfare problem with LBJ's "Great Society".  Government caused the banking problem, government is spending too much money.  The governments welfare solution created the loss of the work ethic.  By changing the banking rules in 1998, they created the mortgage bubble. 
 
Government can build roads, bridges, canals, rockets, jets, etc.  These are all engineering problems with concrete solutions.  Government can't fix people.  This was left up to the chruches and synagogs and to charitys.  By usurping the religious solutions to human problems, they made the problems worse. 
 
Government by having free trade agreements without first seeing if it was "fair trade", they gutted our manufacturing industry. 
Government by mandates from various departments, created the food crisis we are about to experience from their mandate of ethynol blended gasoline.  Also paying farmers NOT to grow food, instead of buying up the surplus for storage for future shortages.   
Government by not allowing drilling offshore and onshore in various places, created the fuel shortage. 
Government by EPA regulations haven't allowed any new refineries since the 70's. 
Government by regulations haven't allowed any new nuclear power plants except one since the 70's. 
 
The list goes on and on. 
 
Governments cannot change the human heart.  Education is free through high school, and free with Pell Grants to poor students.  The poor drop out of school, live on welfare, and do drugs, because anything free isn't worth anything.  Education takes study, which is sometimes hard work.  The work ethic is gone. 
 
Government has pushed and pushed college education and neglected trades.  Right now, there is a shortage of pipeline welders.  Most can make between $50 and $90 an hour here in Alabama, but they have to travel around the state to various locations for welding.  All the welders that my contractors use are over 50.  Young guys think welding is too demeaning or too dirty. 
 
Germany isn't as hurt by this recession as much as us.  They have emphasised trades with about 50% of their people having a trade education of 2 years after high school.  Only about 10% of Germans have a college degree while 20% of Americans do.  They have about 3% high school dropouts.  Ours is much higher.  Germany hasn't gutted their manufacturing base and their GDP is higher than all other European countries, including Russia.  They are 4th in the world yet only have 85 million people. 
 
We have to start changing our government, first by not voting for Democrats and liberal Republicans.  Those of you who are union members, if we don't get the government out of our lives, being in the union won't make a difference, all of us fall.  America is going bankrupt.  The magic number is $20 trillion in debt, we are at $16.  Either hyperinflation is coming, or about 20 years of what we have now, or the banks and foreign countries will not bankroll our debt, and everything will be cut, welfare, social security, military, everything.  All of it looks bad, UNLESS we start CUTTING stuff NOW, and get the government OUT of our lives, and let the private economy flourish.  Growing the economy grows the tax base to pay for things. 
 
Off my soapbox.
 
 

Offline BBF

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 05:18:50 AM »
People have come to think they no longer need God. They are finding out they are wrong, the fact presents itself in many ways.
 
A distinct lack of personal responsibility. Kids are taught from an early age that too many things can be blamed for their own lack of integrity. This process continues until it's all to blame on the man keeping you .......................

In contrast I read articles and saw pictures of how people dealt with calamity in New Orleans after Katrina with widespread looting vs. the people in Japan acted when the quake and tsunami destroyed their powerplants and Japan has never been a Christian country.
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2012, 05:56:11 AM »
Some of it is Japanese culture and decent upbringing, but I'm sure that having what amounts to a guilty until proven innocent legal system and the very high probability of a conviction and prison sentence in any trial has a lot to do with it.

Offline mcbammer

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 06:02:10 AM »
The  Japanese  are  well   disaplined  people ,  A   trait   that   Americans   lack.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2012, 11:58:06 AM »
I think our biggest problem is that folks have forgotton how to be self suficient. Everyone relies on the Government to tell them how to live and not just what they can or can't do but even what the Government feels we should or shouldn't do. It doesn't take a genious to realise our own Government is selling us down the river. We can't trust our elected officials yet we go on electing the same kind simply because the ballots  don't give us any other choice. We're caught up in a vicious trend that goes no where but down  More than ever it's a rich man's world and the rest of us are just pawns so they can get even richer. What happens to our Country doesn't matter to them because they think money and power can get them anything they desire. So far they are right! Instead of voting for the lessor of two evils we need to vote NONE OF THE ABOVE!

Offline mcbammer

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2012, 12:07:03 PM »
I think our biggest problem is that folks have forgotton how to be self suficient. Everyone relies on the Government to tell them how to live and not just what they can or can't do but even what the Government feels we should or shouldn't do. It doesn't take a genious to realise our own Government is selling us down the river. We can't trust our elected officials yet we go on electing the same kind simply because the ballots  don't give us any other choice. We're caught up in a vicious trend that goes no where but down  More than ever it's a rich man's world and the rest of us are just pawns so they can get even richer. What happens to our Country doesn't matter to them because they think money and power can get them anything they desire. So far they are right! Instead of voting for the lessor of two evils we need to vote NONE OF THE ABOVE!
I  agree  its  a  rich   mans  world .  How   far  back   in  election   history  would  you  have  to  go  to  find  a   President   that   wasnt   already   a   multi   millionaire  before  he   took  office.

Offline ironglow

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2012, 02:38:37 PM »
People have come to think they no longer need God. They are finding out they are wrong, the fact presents itself in many ways.
 
A distinct lack of personal responsibility. Kids are taught from an early age that too many things can be blamed for their own lack of integrity. This process continues until it's all to blame on the man keeping you .......................

In contrast I read articles and saw pictures of how people dealt with calamity in New Orleans after Katrina with widespread looting vs. the people in Japan acted when the quake and tsunami destroyed their powerplants and Japan has never been a Christian country.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
   Interesting statement...Do you really believe that those looters were "religious"..either Christian or otherwise?  Don't "assume" since people are Americans, they are also Christians..  Truth is, saved Christians are but a remenant today in the U.S..  Our president has recently admitted we are no longer a "Christian nation"....
   Even so, he also claimed that the U.S. is one of the "largest Muslim countries".. :P    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgXK_6fWLQ
   
 
  TheJjapanese have always been "religious" as opposed to atheists..they have an ancient code of honor, ingrained through those religions.   http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2056.html 
   
  Since WW2 Christianity has made strides in Japan.
 
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2012, 07:47:14 AM »
I would venture to say that less than 10% of Americans are true Christians today.  Less than 50% of people in the Bible belt attend church anymore, and all of them aren't true Christians.  Many claim to be based on their parents upbringing, but don't attend.  Who knows.  We have come a long way from 1892 when the Supreme Court justice said America was a Christian nation and her laws are based on Christian principles.  In 1960 50% of Americans attended chruch regularly.  No federal welfare program, no food stamps, only 11% below the poverty level, STD's were unheard of and almost eliminated, no drug problem, limited alcohol problem, chruches and charities took care of problems.  Sad, how far down we have come in 50 years. 
 

Offline BBF

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Re: THe greatness of America..what happened?
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2012, 08:40:13 AM »
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   Interesting statement...Do you really believe that those looters were "religious"..either Christian or otherwise?  Don't "assume" since people are American..............   
 
 
   
  Since WW2 Christianity has made strides in Japan.
 

Re the looters. Somehow I think if those people were ever asked after the flood (New Orleans not the BIG ONE) if they believed in God  they would reply in the positive and wouldn't consider their looting as Sin.
I've picked "Katrina" for convenience, it isn't the only time/place were this sort of thing was going on.
There is something positive to say "Looters will be shot on Sight." Aww, that are my German ancestors speaking through me. ::)
 
I don't know if Christianity has any influence on the Japanese conduct and morals. I haven't been there for almost 50 years.
 
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