Politics and hollowpoints

[Mike in Virginia]

Did you see that issue in the news yesterday and today?  How upset people can get when they think the federal agencies have actual hollowpoint ammunition?  I think it goes to prove that most people don't have a clue about the real world.  The disappointing part of the whole deal, to me, is that it was on Fox news, who reported the agencies had ordered "deadly hollowpoints." 

[magooch]

Well, I for one am more than a little curious as to why such a huge amount of any kind of ammo is purchased for some of the agencies mentioned lately in the news. 
 
As a matter of fact, why are hollow points the ammo of choice?

[Cuts Crooked]

As a matter of fact, why are hollow points the ammo of choice?

You're kidding...........Right?

[magooch]

Kidding about what?  I'm just repeating what I heard on the news about several agencies ordering some very large supplies of ammo.  I don't keep up with this kind of stuff, so maybe it is normal and legitimate.  I don't know.  I also don't know the ins and outs about the types of ammo that the government uses.  Why is hollow point ammo preferred?  And no, I'm not kidding.

[Mike in Virginia]

magooch, a hollowpoint expands and stops an assailant quicker than a non-hollowpoint which just slips on through.  It's hard to imagine that information is not common knowledge, but I guess it's not, or it wouldn't have made the news.

[Nuke41]

 
 
The tinfoil hat crowd has screwed themselves into the ceiling over this.  Here’s the facts:
 
- LEO’s use hollow point ammo; only the military uses ball ammo.
 
- It’s the end of the FY, so “fall-out money” is being used to let contracts (many are IDIQ) to buy ammo.  IDIQ contracts are indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity; meaning they can be used to buy huge amounts of something, but they don’t have to be fully executed.
 
- If the US Government was up to something nefarious they could simply use the national security clause to prevent public disclosure of the pending contracts instead of posting them for all to see in FEDBIZOPS.
 

[twoshooter]

Right, that is how contracts work with govt orders, it lets you obligate the money without actually turning loose of it. I am surprised here also, I guess I over- estimated general firearms knowledge because of the site of origin. The media- and that includes FOX, are so woefully ignorant (and proud of it) as to be beyond belief. I am told most of these people rarely ask questions that they don't already have the answer for themselves, but this is a glaring exception. If you wanted to ask questions about children- they have reporters that are parents and could understand, or women, gay issues, black, latino, immigrant etc etc. I have yet to see ONE single reporter, foreign or domestic, that would say " yes, my lifelong passion, favorite hobby, and past time, is personally  killing and eating birds and small mammals, and shooting holes in paper".  NONE of them know squat. If they report on snakes they get a herpetologist , if they report on crops- they get an agronomist, if they report on guns- they get a black woman whose son was shot by police.
  Now for someone here that is not up to speed: Please read Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes, the 49th edition of the Lyman reloading manual, John Wooters complete reloading guide, 10 shots in one hole - the story of Joyce Hornady, and Hell- I was there, by Elmer Keith. There will be a quiz.

If they had ordered FMJ's , Ball ammo, the media would have been screaming "cop killer" bullets. If you are wearing armor, you hope whomever is shooting at you have HP rounds, civilian stuff, and not FMJs which will zip right through. On the other hand, if you are wearing a T shirt, you are hoping for those cop killers, because unless they hit brain,heart, or spine, you have a reasonable chance of survival. There IS no such thing as "safe" bullets, not even rubber or blanks. There was a TV star years ago that shot himself point blank- with a blank, and of course died shortly thereafter. The Geneva convention I believe agreed to outlaw softpoint dum-dum and expanding small arms ammo way back when, just like gas and bio weapons.

When I see reporter walk in , look at a crime scene photos ,and state that the bullet in the picture is of a 75 gr A-Max , the weapon you see is a 722 Remington with an original barrel - that has a 1-14 twist rate, it could not possibly have fired the fatal shot from that range - the bullet would have keyholed. You are probably looking for some AR class weapon with a 1-7 twist. THEN I will pay attention to reporters on gun stories.

[Cuts Crooked]

Sorry! I made the stupid assumption that one who is posting on a firearms/hunting related board would understand about ammo and it's uses/effects.

[Gary G]

who says it is for assailants?


Somewhere I read that it amounts to four rounds per man, woman and child.

[srussell]

thats 3 more that most sports,man need

[blind ear]

Readers Digest expllination, Ball Ammo is used by the military because they reason that a person that is wounded by ball ammo, non expaneding projectile, will require two soilders to carry the wounded soilder out of harms way to get medical attention. Three men not fighting and shooting back.
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Law enforcement and other civil officers don't shoot unless they deem it necessary to "kill" the assailant. Hollow point ammunitiion will inflict more tissue dammage by design thus creating greater blood loss or nerve dammage and the target is incapasitated faster.
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Civilian forces don't shoot at a person unless they intend to kill that person due to threat to self or the public. Hollow point bullets will increast the likelyhood of getting the lethal effect needed to stop further threat to the individual or the public. ear

[JustaShooter]

If you are wearing armor, you hope whomever is shooting at you have HP rounds, civilian stuff, and not FMJs which will zip right through.

 

Surely you jest?

Jest sayin'

Jest a Shooter

[magooch]

Sorry! I made the stupid assumption that one who is posting on a firearms/hunting related board would understand about ammo and it's uses/effects.

Well shame on me for not knowing that cops and governent agencies are armed and ammoed to do the most damage possible.  It has always been my belief that any bullet will probably do the job.  When I was a young man, I used to skin and dress deer and other animals in preparation for buchering.  I saw thousands of wounds and collected lots of bullets.  I never noticed a huge difference in the types of woulds inflicted from various types of bullets--save one; shotgun slugs made one helluva mess. 
 
I don't mean to argue with the theory of bullet types, because it doesn't make any difference to me at all.  If it were me selecting bullets, I would be most interested in accuracy and I have never noticed where hollow points are the least bit more accurate than solid bullets.  I'm certainly no expert, but I have shot my share of various types and calibers of bullets.
 
Again, pardon me for not being an expert at these things and I wasn't aware that it was a prerequisite for commenting on this forum.

[twoshooter]

Not a prerequisite, no need to get testy, but if you have paid much attention to bullet performance over the years you would have noticed a big difference. Try shooting a hard cast 357 mag into some ballistic gel, or if old school like me- wet phone books, and then try a 158 gr XTP and pay attention to the wound cavity. Shoot a small bird or squirrel with a 22LR  solid led, then with a HP. The same holds with most weapons except true BIG game guns, as they rarely use HP's on moose, bear, elephant  , they are more for penetration and controlled expansion.

Let me say though "My bad" as grandaughter would say. I should not make assumptions. After 50 years of soaking in this stuff it just seems natural that everyone should know basics, like there are 9 planets er... I still can't believe they did that to Pluto.

As for the guy above who thought I jested....... you bet you A## I was NOT. If I did not have body armor, would I rather have someone shoot at me with a 7.62 X39 with a FMJ or the last of his supply of 9mm Winchester Black Talons ? You can't even be serious. An HP flowers out with petals that shred and throw shrapnel, they cause massive tissue damage. But, they also have a much larger cross section and are stopped by ballistic material faster. An FMJ drills a hole, plain and simple. Get a medic , EMT on site within a few minutes on a lung shot and you might make it. The new SD -HP loads- you will be lucky to live all the way to the ground.

[powderman]

MAGOOCH. No harm no foul. HP ammo is only legal against American citizens, not foreign invaders or war. You have nothing to appologize for friend. POWDERMAN. 

[Gary G]

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-08-20/major-general-why-are-domestic-government-agencies-purchashing-enough-lethal-

[JustaShooter]

As for the guy above who thought I jested....... you bet you A## I was NOT. If I did not have body armor, would I rather have someone shoot at me with a 7.62 X39 with a FMJ or the last of his supply of 9mm Winchester Black Talons ? You can't even be serious. An HP flowers out with petals that shred and throw shrapnel, they cause massive tissue damage. But, they also have a much larger cross section and are stopped by ballistic material faster. An FMJ drills a hole, plain and simple. Get a medic , EMT on site within a few minutes on a lung shot and you might make it. The new SD -HP loads- you will be lucky to live all the way to the ground.

OK, now you are saying something different, and comparing apples to elephants to boot. 

If you are wearing body armor (as in your first post) and someone is shooting at you with a hand gun (which is what this thread is about, after all), hollow points vs ball isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference.  Ball / FMJ is not going to "zip right through".

Now, if you are being shot at with a rifle cartridge, yeah, the body armor most LEOs will be wearing isn't going to provide much protection.  Again, I doubt that FMJ vs hollow points would make much difference but I don't know for sure, depends a lot on velocity and caliber.

And yes, if you are NOT wearing body armor (as in your last post), then yeah, hollow points are going to make a worse wound than FMJ which as you say will tend to "zip right through".

Just sayin'

Just a Shooter