Factory Crimp Die

[Dixie Dude]

Is a factory crimp die needed for 223 or 308 if you are using the ammo in semi autos?  I was thinking of the slaming action making the bullet come loose.  I know they are tight with standard dies.  Thanks

[LanceR]

Like many things in life you'll get a wide range of options on most reloading steps but I don't think you'll need to crimp for most semi autos.

I shot both service and match rifles for many years as both a civilian and military competitor and loaded umpteen thousands of rounds of .223 and .308 match ammo for match AR15s and National Match M14s and never used a crimp die.  Those rifles generally had minimum dimension chambers and throats too.

The only crimp die I have ever used for an auto-loader is for Barnes TSX bullets in a match built AR15 and that is only because Barnes recommends a light crimp to help assure uniform ignition and velocities.

Military and law enforcement ammo doesn't use a crimp and I suspect that is as good a reason to not use one as you can get so unless you find a specific need after you start loading them I'd skip that step as unnecessary.

Lance

[Dixie Dude]

Thanks, I was wondering because I use a Herters 308 die and haven't had any problems in my L1A1 FAL.  I also have an AR-15 and haven't had any problems.  I guess the worse thing to happen is the bullet comes out a little, and maybe hits the groves on the rifling, but it still fires.  I just read about a problem someone had on another forum. 

[SHOOTALL]

I like to crimp if the bullet is factory set up for a crimp .

[helotaxi]

Actually mil-spec calls for a crimped bullet and primer for rifle loads.

That said, it is overkill if your dies are creating adequate neck tension in the first place.  The only rounds that NEED to be crimped are revolver rounds where recoil can cause the bullet to jump the case and jam the cylinder, round that will be loaded in a tubular magazine like those on a levergun where recoil energy and spring tension will attempt to push the bullet into the case or rounds used in very heavy recoiling rifles where recoil will attempt to pull the bullet from the case.

The only time I've had a bullet get pushed into the case with an AR is when the tip of the bullet catches on one of the lugs in the barrel extension because it came out of the magazine queer.  The bullet gets pushed into the case there whether it's crimped or not.

[Dixie Dude]

I knew about the leverguns, but I was thinking about how hard the bolt slams shut on semiautos, making the bullet come out. 
 
Do straight walled cartridge dies crimp the bullet?

[LanceR]

helotaxi, you are correct about bullet crimping on service ammo.

One thing worth checking on an AR magazine (or any other lightly built magazine) is to load a few rounds and eyeball the tips of the cartridges by looking right down the long axis.  Sometimes you'll find a magazine where the bullet tip is below the front of the magazine box due to bent magazine lips.  That can cause the cartridge to either hang up in the magazine or, more likely, come out at an unplanned angle.  It is the cause of a lot of stovepipes and other mis-feeds that often get blamed on other causes.

We used to number our magazines to help identify issues and sometimes even if you couldn't really find an issue with a magazine that had experienced mis-feeds the issue went away when we tossed that magazine.

Since our reloaded ammo wasn't going to get the pounding and punishment of field service or hot belt fed guns the only time we crimped was for single loaded long (heavy for caliber) bullets loaded to or near the lands for long range shooting.  There had been a few cases of bullets staying in the lands when an unfired cartridge was removed from the chamber.

Lance

[helotaxi]

I knew about the leverguns, but I was thinking about how hard the bolt slams shut on semiautos, making the bullet come out.

Ever used a kinetic bullet puller?  I promise you that I hit the bench a lot harder than any bolt slams to battery and I've had plenty of .223 bullets that either barely moved or didn't budge with repeated whacks.  .308, .243, .204, 6.8SPC and all the other rifle rounds that I load for are the same way.  I use a collet puller now. 
 

Do straight walled cartridge dies crimp the bullet?

Most do.  Most normal bottleneck cartridge seater dies crimp as well.  The amount of crimp is set by how far down you screw the die into the press.  Normal setup process is to back the die out so that the crimp ring isn't touching the mouth of the case with the ram all the way up, adjust the seater stem to get the OAL that you want, remove the stem, screw the die down in small increments until you get the crimp that you want, reinstall the stem screwing using the seated bullet as a depth stop and finally locking it all down.  I personally prefer to crimp in a separate step and use a FCD to do it.  I load all my handgun ammo on a Dillon 550b so station #4 holds the FCD.

[Dixie Dude]

Thanks helotaxi.  Yes I have used a bullet puller, and it does take some hitting to get bullets to come out. 

[Grumulkin]

I knew about the leverguns, but I was thinking about how hard the bolt slams shut on semiautos, making the bullet come out. 
 
Do straight walled cartridge dies crimp the bullet?

Regarding autoloading rifles, I've loaded for 223, 308, 30/06, 7.62X39 and 458 Socom cartridges and have never needed to crimp for any of them.


Straight walled cartridge dies can be made to crimp bullets.  Rimmed straight walled cartridges can use a roll crimp while with rimless straight walled cartridges, you must use a taper crimp.  Also, in some cartridges that have a lot of recoil to be fired in revolvers you may need to use a Lee Factory Crimp die to get enough crimp to keep the bullet from moving under recoil while avoiding crushing the case.

[gypsyman]

In any of my Super Mag calibers, the best crimp I found was the Redding Profile crimp die. You can adjust it were you don't have as much crimp, or tighten it down. I've had a few bullets pull out and tie up the cylinder on a revolver with regular crimp dies. If you look real close at factory ammo, they use a taper crimp on auto cartridges,(9mm,.40, and 45,etc) And a hard roll crimp on the bigger magnum stuff.(.41 and .44 mag.) gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

Some say you don't need a crimp maybe not depending on your goal. If you crimp you can raise the pressure it takes to start the bullet moving. If so you may increase velosity over all. You may not need to but it could be used to achieve something positive.

[wncchester]

"Is a factory crimp die needed for 223 or 308 if you are using the ammo in semi autos?"
 
I like the FCD but 'needed' is a strong word; it suggests .223 and .308 couldn't have been correctly reloaded before the FCD came out and that's not the way it was!

[cwlongshot]

"Is a factory crimp die needed for 223 or 308 if you are using the ammo in semi autos?"
 
I like the FCD but 'needed' is a strong word; "it suggests .223 and .308 couldn't have been correctly reloaded before the FCD came out and that's not the way it was!"

EXACTLY.... Its kinda like modern camo clothing... they way its advertised you wonder how anyone was successful hunting before it was availble.

I like to say the Lee FCD is a solution to a non existent problem... The crimping operation that is afforded with in the seater die has proven to be 100% effective. Bullet retention in the case is NOT only the function of the crimp. Properly sized expander balls and proper dimension sizer dies are also part of the equation.

CW

[helotaxi]

Some say you don't need a crimp maybe not depending on your goal. If you crimp you can raise the pressure it takes to start the bullet moving. If so you may increase velosity over all. You may not need to but it could be used to achieve something positive.

Much more applicable to large bore handguns and large straight-wall rifle cartridges than bottleneck cartridges though.  The large surface area on the handgun bullets means that lower chamber pressures equal more pressure on the bullet base and that allows the bullet to leave the case with a lower chamber pressure.  Also different is that handgun peak pressure is greatly affected by case capacity and peak pressure is realized before the bullet ever moves.  A heavy crimp definitely has a use in that situation to retain the bullet long enough to build pressure into the optimum burn zone for the cartridge and powder.  A rifle reaches peak pressure when the bullet engraves on the rifling and the difference between crimped and uncrimped when you have good neck tension to begin with is negligible.  Some do see better accuracy results with a crimp in rifle loads, but that is usually because it increases the uniformity of the neck tension in their loads.

[tacklebury]

I almost always use an FCD to kiss the neck tension for consistency even if I don't crimp into a groove or cannelure.  Smooth walled .223 bullets for my single shot H&R is one I don't typically need it for.  I have never had a properly adjusted FCD deform a bullet, however.  I get 100% proper chambering with auto handguns with the use of the taper crimp FCD system and only about 50% without it.  I have several buddies that were about to give up on loading for .40 S&W, .45 ACP  and 9mm and turned them onto the FCD and they now have the same results I do.  Very accurate and consistent loads.  Not saying there isn't other ways to get there, but the system works well for me and I for one have an FCD for every caliber they make one for that I load. 

[Savage]

I almost always use an FCD to kiss the neck tension for consistency even if I don't crimp into a groove or cannelure.  Smooth walled .223 bullets for my single shot H&R is one I don't typically need it for.  I have never had a properly adjusted FCD deform a bullet, however.  I get 100% proper chambering with auto handguns with the use of the taper crimp FCD system and only about 50% without it.  I have several buddies that were about to give up on loading for .40 S&W, .45 ACP  and 9mm and turned them onto the FCD and they now have the same results I do.  Very accurate and consistent loads.  Not saying there isn't other ways to get there, but the system works well for me and I for one have an FCD for every caliber they make one for that I load. 

My experience exactly.
Savage