Let's be honest here..

[ironglow]

   A subject where there seems to be a lot of heat  but very littlelight ..
 
  So often we hear the words "zionist" and "zionism" bandied about here.  We hear the term over and over...to ad nauseum.
    Let's take a look at the definition from an authority with no "axe to grind"..an authority by the name of Merriam-Webster:
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  Zi·on·ism   : an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.         http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zionism
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    It's as simple as that!  Zionism is simply a patriotic Jewish movement which has striven  fulfill God's promise that they would come back into their land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).  Anybody who calls it a sinister movement or any other nefarious label, either doesn't know what they are talking about,...  restricts their knowledge to Muslim propaganda..or both..

[wncchester]

Iron, that's true.  What the Zionist movement stove for - and continues to maintain - is the Jewish homeland.  No Muslim state is threatened by Israel but Israel is threatened by every "peace loving" Muslim state.  Why is that?
 
I suspect most of the Muslim's hatred is driven by the fact that Jews have made a viable, productive state in the midst of Muslim waste lands which, if not for oil, would still be covered with dusty camel tracks - and they know it.  They can't do much themselves but they have a lot of "pride" - aka, arrogance - and the Jew's success in that tiny patch of land while surrounded by their universal failure is galling.  ??

[ironglow]

  That little red sliver of land shown on the map below, is more productive in the arts, science, medicine, literature and all kinds of industy, than that huge green area which contiguously surrounds her.  I guess those countries are green with envy ..

[Gary G]

  That little red sliver of land shown on the map below, is more productive in the arts, science, medicine, literature and all kinds of industy, than that huge green area which contiguously surrounds her.  I guess those countries are green with envy ..

That makes me wonder why we give them so much money each year??


Err, I do believe Eze 29 is speaking of the return of the remnant after the carrying away by Nebuchadnezzer. That was so that the prophecy of Christ being born of the nation of Israel would be possible.

[ironglow]

  From Gary;
  " Err, I do believe Eze 29 is speaking of the return of the remnant after the carrying away by Nebuchadnezzer. That was so that the prophecy of Christ being born of the nation of Israel would be possible."
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    Better look again.. the reference was to Chapter 39..not chapter 29.  Actually, Chapter 28: 25,26 also points out the same prophecy as in Ch 39.  You really should check the commentaries and the Biblical scholars.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Barnes notes on the Bible explains (Ezek 28:25,26)  this way:
   
25Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. The contrast of the future of Israel with that of the surrounding nations. This prophecy reaches far beyond a mere temporal restoration. It points to times of more permanent security, when from all nations and kingdoms the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, shall be gathered in, when the power of the world shall be forever broken, and the kingdom of Christ shall be established forever. This transition from the enemies to the people of God closes the portion of the prophecies against the nations in the immediate vicinity of the Israelites, before passing to the more distant Egypt. 26And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Another explains(Ezek 39:25-29):
      Verses 25-29
Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name. And they shall bear their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they shall dwell securely in their land, and none shall make them afraid; when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there; neither will I hide my face any more from them; for I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord

[powderman]

Iron, that's true.  What the Zionist movement stove for - and continues to maintain - is the Jewish homeland.  No Muslim state is threatened by Israel but Israel is threatened by every "peace loving" Muslim state.  Why is that?
 

 
Easy answer. All the muslim states are inhabited by satans disciples. POWDERMAN. 

[Gary G]

  From Gary;
  " Err, I do believe Eze 29 is speaking of the return of the remnant after the carrying away by Nebuchadnezzer. That was so that the prophecy of Christ being born of the nation of Israel would be possible."
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    Better look again.. the reference was to Chapter 39..not chapter 29.  Actually, Chapter 28: 25,26 also points out the same prophecy as in Ch 39.  You really should check the commentaries and the Biblical scholars.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Barnes notes on the Bible explains (Ezek 28:25,26)  this way:
   
25Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. The contrast of the future of Israel with that of the surrounding nations. This prophecy reaches far beyond a mere temporal restoration. It points to times of more permanent security, when from all nations and kingdoms the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, shall be gathered in, when the power of the world shall be forever broken, and the kingdom of Christ shall be established forever. This transition from the enemies to the people of God closes the portion of the prophecies against the nations in the immediate vicinity of the Israelites, before passing to the more distant Egypt. 26And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Another explains(Ezek 39:25-29):
      Verses 25-29
Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name. And they shall bear their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they shall dwell securely in their land, and none shall make them afraid; when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there; neither will I hide my face any more from them; for I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord

I checked with Jeremiah. He said it would be 70 years and then the remnant would return. He was counting from the first carrying away, the one that included Daniel.
There were two destructions of Jerusalem. The remnant would return from the first by Nebuchadnezzar. That had to happen for Christ to come into the world. The second destruction in 70 AD, Titus destroyed the records and the foundation of the temple. There would never be a return there, at least not as God's nation Israel. Now Britain and the US's created Israel is there. That is why the Arabs don't like them. The Palistanians were forced out of their houses and Jews moved in to them.
You are correct about the Zionist movement. It began in the 1890's by a few that realized that the Jews were losing their heritage. Truman and Churchill were sympathetic. All the boundaries over there are an artificial creation of those two entities. And therein lies most of the problems in the middle east. Now what was it George Washington said?

[nw_hunter]

Be careful! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I can see where this one is going, as was the intent , I believe of the OP. You Bible Scholars that want to debate the true interpretation of the New and Old Testament, even coming to near INTERNET blows ...........Do so by PM, and have at it. If your going to do it on this forum, then keep it civil!

[ironglow]

   IU won't debate it further..Gary is entitled to his own hermenutic.  I'll be more inclined to accept what the top scholars say.

[yellowtail3]

Well, then, it's settled according Ironglow, being all honest - Zionists is a perfectly good word.

Here's hoping those Zionist jerks in power in the Zionist Entity don't start another war.

[ironglow]

Well, then, it's settled according Ironglow, being all honest - Zionists is a perfectly good word.  Not according to Ironglow..but according to Merriam/Webster and Encyclopedia Brittanica..Do you have a more authoritative source for the correct meaning of the word ? ...and TM doesn't count!     

Here's hoping those Zionist Muslim jerks in power in the Zionist Muslim Entity don't start another war.  After all those idiots in Teheran have installed another 350 centrifuges...just begging for it..and Obama isn't helping..

[saddlebum]

"Now what was it George Washington said?"
-Gary G
 
Not sure what you are refering to, but I have these quotes on hand.
Hope this helps.....

 "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
 
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
 
“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained”
 
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
 
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
 
Here is another note worthy quote from a Founding Father.
 “The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.”
 -John Adams
 
Almost sounds like Adams could have been a Zionist. Judging from this quote, he at least revered the Jewish people. One could only assume he would be sympathetic to their cause of returning to their ancestral homeland and maintain their own Jewish state in the form of a legitimate nation.

[yellowtail3]

Here's hoping those Zionist Muslim jerks in power in the Zionist Muslim Entity don't start another war.  After all those idiots in Teheran have installed another 350 centrifuges...just begging for it..and Obama isn't helping..

'begging for it'? If a country demands the US do something with the threat of war if we don't comply... will we be begging for it if we don't comply?

Iran has as much right to nuclear weapons at Russia, China, India, the US, France, UK, Pakistan or... yeah, that Zionist Entity. We've been making them the evil boogie man for 30 years now. Some dipwads out there have read some Tom Clancy and think they know what they're about.

Does anyone know how many countries Iran has attacked over the past... oh, 100 years or so? Give us a count?

[saddlebum]

Here's hoping those Zionist Muslim jerks in power in the Zionist Muslim Entity don't start another war.  After all those idiots in Teheran have installed another 350 centrifuges...just begging for it..and Obama isn't helping..

'begging for it'? If a country demands the US do something with the threat of war if we don't comply... will we be begging for it if we don't comply?

Iran has as much right to nuclear weapons at Russia, China, India, the US, France, UK, Pakistan or... yeah, that Zionist Entity. We've been making them the evil boogie man for 30 years now. Some dipwads out there have read some Tom Clancy and think they know what they're about.

Does anyone know how many countries Iran has attacked over the past... oh, 100 years or so? Give us a count?

 
I count 27 wars, counting some civil wars because it's clear that if they will kill eachother, they will kill anyone. But there are plenty of wars of aggression against other countries listed here too. The timeline is from 1779 to present. Seems to me that their capability for war is the only thing that holds them back. Just ask an Iraqi citizen. As far as other countries that have nukes and Iran 'having as much right' to nukes, none of the others are openly vowing to destroy another nation with them like Iran is. In my mind, that is reason enough to stop them.
 
http://www.historyguy.com/wars_of_iran.htm

[ironglow]

Here's hoping those Zionist Muslim jerks in power in the Zionist Muslim Entity don't start another war.  After all those idiots in Teheran have installed another 350 centrifuges...just begging for it..and Obama isn't helping..

'begging for it'? If a country demands the US do something with the threat of war if we don't comply... will we be begging for it if we don't comply?

Iran has as much right to nuclear weapons at Russia, China, India, the US, France, UK, Pakistan or... yeah, that Zionist Entity. We've been making them the evil boogie man for 30 years now. Some dipwads out there have read some Tom Clancy and think they know what they're about.

Does anyone know how many countries Iran has attacked over the past... oh, 100 years or so? Give us a count?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  YT:
      Your deductive reasoning leaves much to be desired..note the following analogy:
 
    I suppose that if Tony Lopez were to shove me a bit, I probably would have a right to smack him in the mouth.
 ...But would it be wise to do so..being as Tony Lopez is the MMA (mixed martial arts) super heavyweight world champion?
   
    Just because Iran is feeling cocky over it's bomb building potential, there is no good reason for them to flirt with war against the current nuclear powers.
  A westerner with logical reasoning power should be more concerned that this fanatical pipsqueak of a nation could ultimately, ignite the tinderbox of the mideast..and eventually..the world!    ...And they may just do that yet..

[rio grande]

   A subject where there seems to be a lot of heat  but very littlelight ..
 
  So often we hear the words "zionist" and "zionism" bandied about here.  We hear the term over and over...to ad nauseum.
    Let's take a look at the definition from an authority with no "axe to grind"..an authority by the name of Merriam-Webster:
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  Zi·on·ism   : an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.         http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zionism
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    It's as simple as that!  Zionism is simply a patriotic Jewish movement which has striven  fulfill God's promise that they would come back into their land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).  Anybody who calls it a sinister movement or any other nefarious label, either doesn't know what they are talking about,...  restricts their knowledge to Muslim propaganda..or both..

That's just word-play.  Anything the Muslims say is merely 'propaganda' while Israel and it's neo-con front simply speak innocently and sweetly.

Speaking of an ax to grind, I'm sure you have none, as your posts make very clear.
But Israel has plenty of 'axes'....hundreds of nuclear weapons built and brandished in opposition to international laws and standards of morality, thousands of missiles, including ICBM's, nuclear-powered subs capable of launching such weapons, and chemical and biological weapons.
Nary a peep from the United States, whose leaders are tied so closely to Israeli interests that the rest of the world can't tell whether Israel runs U.S. policy or the U.S. bosses Israel.

It just amazes me also that those who advocate aggressive, pre-emptive war on behalf of Israel  will turn to Scripture to support such evil.

Here's some Scripture for you to ponder, perhaps you missed it in your studies....
"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Matthew 5-9

ironglow, your posts seem to me a constant justification of and call for war and destruction.  If you succeed in your efforts to unleash the dogs of war do you understand how many millions of innocent men, women, and children will suffer and die?
Do you really want to answer for that some day?

[ironglow]

  Rio;
  You misread me completely!  I am not in favor of, nor capable in any way to "unleash the dogs of war".  On the contrary, I am simply remarking as to how the Iranian regime is right at this moment, grooming the "pit bulls" of conflict!
  Israel has already said they will not be uprooted.  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power!  Obviously, it is the Iranian regime who is flirting with disaster..
     You must have missed my analogy (which is simple) that for you or me to smack Tony Lopez is foolhardy..so it is with Iran trying a nuclear smack at Israel..
   I made it clear that such a move could ignite the whole world, I certainly don't want that...rtead my last post again..this time with comprehension.

[ironglow]

From Rio Grande;
  " Speaking of an ax to grind, I'm sure you have none, as your posts make very clear."
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   ....And we are supposed to believe you don't have an axe to grind!           
 
    ....From the stove...hello pot..what are you calling me?               

[DDZ]

Do any of you anti Israel people ever wonder why there is so much fuss over a little sliver of land in the middle east? All the bickering serves a purpose. Sides will have to be chosen. You will have to align with evil or align with the good. The sides will be distinct. 
IG is not making justification for a war, he knows there is going to be a great battle because its what is written in the Bible. Its all about which side you will be on. IG and others have chosen sides, but others are supporting what Israels future attackers are doing.
God has said in the very beginning that he will bless those who bless Israel, and he will curse those that curse Israel. We each will have to choose. No one can remain apathetic. The end times may be near, and evil will be obliterated in that time. 

[yellowtail3]

I count 27 wars, counting some civil wars because it's clear that if they will kill eachother, they will kill anyone.

you may have a point there; we fought a hell of a civil war right here in America, and now we're in wars over and over... cause/effect? I wonder if Ho looked back at 1861-65 right after the Japs left, and knew that we'd come looking to fight against his people in Vietnam?

But there are plenty of wars of aggression against other countries listed here too.

which ones are you thinking of, esp in the last, oh, sixty years since end of WW2? Seems to me... not much there. Yer cut-n-paste is lacking, if it is meant to demonstrate that Iran is an dangerous, expansionist state that needs to be restrained by American power.

Seems to me that their capability for war is the only thing that holds them back.

isn't that always the case? I mean... do you think we'd have invaded Iraq, if they were a bigger power than we are?

Just ask an Iraqi citizen.

Do you mean, the Iraqi citizens who planned the war that Iraq launched against Iran in 1986? You understand that was a case of Iran being attacked by Iraq.... right? And that the United States supported Iraq in that invasion of Iran?

  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power! 

I don't recall the Pahlavi regime being hostile towards the Zionists... I'm thinkin' that Ironglow doesn't know when the Iranian Revolution took place?

[ironglow]

FRom YT;
  " I don't recall the Pahlavi regime being hostile towards the Zionists... I'm thinkin' that Ironglow doesn't know when the Iranian Revolution took place? "
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  " I don't recall the Pahlavi regime being hostile to the Zionists"..  There was no need for Pahlavi to be hostile toward Israel..Pahlavi had his own country and business to take care of.
 
  " I'm thinkin' that Ironglow doesn't knowwhen the Iranian revolution took place?"  Not quite accurate YT, I am well aware that the Islamofacists took over Iran in 1979.  However, the ayatollah was making noise and unrest for years from his apartment in France.  The wheels of fate started turning in1976, when Carter was elected prez...and the handover from the Shah to the Islamofacists became a pre-planned, inevitable event.
    Check it over; "Jimmie" was elected in Nov 1976..

[yellowtail3]

Not quite accurate YT, I am well aware that the Islamofacists took over Iran in 1979.

hey, here's something you can teach me: what is an Islamofacist? What distinguishes an Islamofacist, from, say, a regular Islamist? Or a fascist?

What is an Islamist, anyhow? Is it kind of like a Christianist?

[rio grande]

  Rio;
  You misread me completely!  I am not in favor of, nor capable in any way to "unleash the dogs of war".  On the contrary, I am simply remarking as to how the Iranian regime is right at this moment, grooming the "pit bulls" of conflict!
  Israel has already said they will not be uprooted.  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power!  Obviously, it is the Iranian regime who is flirting with disaster..
     You must have missed my analogy (which is simple) that for you or me to smack Tony Lopez is foolhardy..so it is with Iran trying a nuclear smack at Israel..
   I made it clear that such a move could ignite the whole world, I certainly don't want that...rtead my last post again..this time with comprehension.

Well thank you, ironglow.
I certainly hope I misread you, as it distresses me that anyone would advocate a preemptive and immoral war that today would undoubtedly kill many innocents.

I think the best course to start with would be to advocate a nuclear weapon-free middle-east, as Iran has advocated. Of course, since Israel is the only country in the mid-east with a nuclear arsenal they would have to take the first step.

Until this step is taken, it would be logical and wise for the United States to immediately suspend all military aid to Israel.

As far as Iran 'flirting with disaster' - I guess standing up to a well-armed and muscular bully might be 'flirting with disaster', but it is the only honorable thing to do, after all.

It is a good thing to differentiate Jews from 'Zionists'. Many Jews, even in Israel, are not political Zionists...there is a growing anti-war movement among Jews in Israel and around the world. I have no doubt Zionism will eventually fade from the scene, not by war launched by Muslims but from the actions of peace-loving Jews themselves.
This is by no means the 'destruction of Israel'.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/06/20/iran-and-the-bomb-a-fabricated-threat/

I prefer burying the hatchet to 'grinding an ax'.  That is my viewpoint, and why not express it?
To prefer peace to war is to affirm human life. I value all human life, that includes, among others, both Jewish and Muslim.

[saddlebum]

I count 27 wars, counting some civil wars because it's clear that if they will kill eachother, they will kill anyone.

you may have a point there; we fought a hell of a civil war right here in America, and now we're in wars over and over... cause/effect? I wonder if Ho looked back at 1861-65 right after the Japs left, and knew that we'd come looking to fight against his people in Vietnam?

But there are plenty of wars of aggression against other countries listed here too.

which ones are you thinking of, esp in the last, oh, sixty years since end of WW2? Seems to me... not much there. Yer cut-n-paste is lacking, if it is meant to demonstrate that Iran is an dangerous, expansionist state that needs to be restrained by American power.

Seems to me that their capability for war is the only thing that holds them back.

isn't that always the case? I mean... do you think we'd have invaded Iraq, if they were a bigger power than we are?

Just ask an Iraqi citizen.

Do you mean, the Iraqi citizens who planned the war that Iraq launched against Iran in 1986? You understand that was a case of Iran being attacked by Iraq.... right? And that the United States supported Iraq in that invasion of Iran?

  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power! 

I don't recall the Pahlavi regime being hostile towards the Zionists... I'm thinkin' that Ironglow doesn't know when the Iranian Revolution took place?

I just attempted to answer your question with a link for information. Take, or make up, whatever you want from it. I won't argue over semantics. The idea behind providing information is so the reader can form an opinion based on facts. Opinions differ, facts are facts.

[Gary G]

"Now what was it George Washington said?"
-Gary G
 
Not sure what you are refering to, but I have these quotes on hand.
Hope this helps.....

 "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
 
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
 
“The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained”
 
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
 
"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."
 
Here is another note worthy quote from a Founding Father.
 “The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.”
 -John Adams
 
Almost sounds like Adams could have been a Zionist. Judging from this quote, he at least revered the Jewish people. One could only assume he would be sympathetic to their cause of returning to their ancestral homeland and maintain their own Jewish state in the form of a legitimate nation.

Wisdom of George Washington:
"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all."

It is in his farewell address, about mid way:
http://www.100megspop3.com/bark/Beware.html

[ironglow]

  Rio;
  You misread me completely!  I am not in favor of, nor capable in any way to "unleash the dogs of war".  On the contrary, I am simply remarking as to how the Iranian regime is right at this moment, grooming the "pit bulls" of conflict!
  Israel has already said they will not be uprooted.  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power!  Obviously, it is the Iranian regime who is flirting with disaster..
     You must have missed my analogy (which is simple) that for you or me to smack Tony Lopez is foolhardy..so it is with Iran trying a nuclear smack at Israel..
   I made it clear that such a move could ignite the whole world, I certainly don't want that...rtead my last post again..this time with comprehension.

Well thank you, ironglow.
I certainly hope I misread you, as it distresses me that anyone would advocate a preemptive and immoral war that today would undoubtedly kill many innocents.

I think the best course to start with would be to advocate a nuclear weapon-free middle-east, as Iran has advocated. Of course, since Israel is the only country in the mid-east with a nuclear arsenal they would have to take the first step.
Advocating a nuclear free middle-east..and getting one ..are two very different things.  Nuclear free is basically a dream, since the few times disarmament was tried, only the "good guys" honored it...while the bad guys kept on building; just as the cartoon above illustrates.

Until this step is taken, it would be logical and wise for the United States to immediately suspend all military aid to Israel.
  We nearly have a nuclear free middle east as it stands, Israel being the only exception.  Israel has shown no inclination to spark aggressive, land grabbing wars.  Every war between the Arabs and Israelis since the reestablishment of Israel  (1948, 1967 & 1973) have all been instances where the Arab powers were trying to take Israeli land.

As far as Iran 'flirting with disaster' - I guess standing up to a well-armed and muscular bully might be 'flirting with disaster', but it is the only honorable thing to do, after all.  The "bully" is not Israel..if the Arabs would stop being aggressive toward Israel, thing would quiet down remarkably .

It is a good thing to differentiate Jews from 'Zionists'. Many Jews, even in Israel, are not political Zionists...there is a growing anti-war movement among Jews in Israel and around the world. I have no doubt Zionism will eventually fade from the scene, not by war launched by Muslims but from the actions of peace-loving Jews themselves.
This is by no means the 'destruction of Israel'.  Of course not all Jews are patriotic..we have the same types here.  Noty all are educated enough to know of the "Land and the Promise"..and of course Israel will stand until God calls the time...and the "King of Kings" sets things straight.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/06/20/iran-and-the-bomb-a-fabricated-threat/ I don't take "anti-war" screechers very seriously..for the following reasons:

A) To claim the title of "anti-war", they must assume everyone else is "pro-war"...totally childish.
 
B) I see their slogans posted here and there and see how utterly vapid they are.  Such slogans as "war is not the answer".
  Most of us detest war and hope it doesn't happen, but when Islamofacist fanatics attack us as on 9/11 what is the answer?  They freely admit they have no intentions of stopping their attacks on our country..
Would the peaceniks have us surrender?  Knowing that of the billion and a half Muslims..even a small fraction being trerrorists..would have over a million Islamofacists out there looking for a chance to strike..what is the answer? 

I prefer burying the hatchet to 'grinding an ax'.  That is my viewpoint, and why not express it?  It pretty much depends upon just where the Islamofacists plan on burying the hatchet..
To prefer peace to war is to affirm human life. I value all human life, that includes, among others, both Jewish and Muslim.
  I have heard peaceniks say those phrases for decades... but SOME of them are the very same people advocating for the death of pre-born boys & girls...  Those particular people just don't pass the "smell test"..

[rio grande]

  Rio;
  You misread me completely!  I am not in favor of, nor capable in any way to "unleash the dogs of war".  On the contrary, I am simply remarking as to how the Iranian regime is right at this moment, grooming the "pit bulls" of conflict!
  Israel has already said they will not be uprooted.  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power!  Obviously, it is the Iranian regime who is flirting with disaster..
     You must have missed my analogy (which is simple) that for you or me to smack Tony Lopez is foolhardy..so it is with Iran trying a nuclear smack at Israel..
   I made it clear that such a move could ignite the whole world, I certainly don't want that...rtead my last post again..this time with comprehension.

Well thank you, ironglow.
I certainly hope I misread you, as it distresses me that anyone would advocate a preemptive and immoral war that today would undoubtedly kill many innocents.

I think the best course to start with would be to advocate a nuclear weapon-free middle-east, as Iran has advocated. Of course, since Israel is the only country in the mid-east with a nuclear arsenal they would have to take the first step.
Advocating a nuclear free middle-east..and getting one ..are two very different things.  Nuclear free is basically a dream, since the few times disarmament was tried, only the "good guys" honored it...while the bad guys kept on building; just as the cartoon above illustrates.

Until this step is taken, it would be logical and wise for the United States to immediately suspend all military aid to Israel.
  We nearly have a nuclear free middle east as it stands, Israel being the only exception.  Israel has shown no inclination to spark aggressive, land grabbing wars.  Every war between the Arabs and Israelis since the reestablishment of Israel  (1948, 1967 & 1973) have all been instances where the Arab powers were trying to take Israeli land.

As far as Iran 'flirting with disaster' - I guess standing up to a well-armed and muscular bully might be 'flirting with disaster', but it is the only honorable thing to do, after all.  The "bully" is not Israel..if the Arabs would stop being aggressive toward Israel, thing would quiet down remarkably .

It is a good thing to differentiate Jews from 'Zionists'. Many Jews, even in Israel, are not political Zionists...there is a growing anti-war movement among Jews in Israel and around the world. I have no doubt Zionism will eventually fade from the scene, not by war launched by Muslims but from the actions of peace-loving Jews themselves.
This is by no means the 'destruction of Israel'.  Of course not all Jews are patriotic..we have the same types here.  Noty all are educated enough to know of the "Land and the Promise"..and of course Israel will stand until God calls the time...and the "King of Kings" sets things straight.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/06/20/iran-and-the-bomb-a-fabricated-threat/ I don't take "anti-war" screechers very seriously..for the following reasons:

A) To claim the title of "anti-war", they must assume everyone else is "pro-war"...totally childish.
 
B) I see their slogans posted here and there and see how utterly vapid they are.  Such slogans as "war is not the answer".
  Most of us detest war and hope it doesn't happen, but when Islamofacist fanatics attack us as on 9/11 what is the answer?  They freely admit they have no intentions of stopping their attacks on our country..
Would the peaceniks have us surrender?  Knowing that of the billion and a half Muslims..even a small fraction being trerrorists..would have over a million Islamofacists out there looking for a chance to strike..what is the answer? 

I prefer burying the hatchet to 'grinding an ax'.  That is my viewpoint, and why not express it?  It pretty much depends upon just where the Islamofacists plan on burying the hatchet..
To prefer peace to war is to affirm human life. I value all human life, that includes, among others, both Jewish and Muslim.
  I have heard peaceniks say those phrases for decades... but SOME of them are the very same people advocating for the death of pre-born boys & girls...  Those particular people just don't pass the "smell test"..

Pro-life means pro-life, before and after birth.
 You constant calls for and attempted justifications for war, well-documented here, speak for themselves.  To lead others into error is far worse than personal wrongs alone.   And I know war propaganda when I stumble across it. It has an unmistakable smell.
Because I have done that - encouraged others to war.
How I regret that!  I have repented, asked forgiveness, and now try to make amends to the best of my poor abilities.

But our discussion is becoming a circular argument that goes nowhere.... ad infinitum...
In the same sense, 'war is not the answer' - war is simply a Hatfield/McCoy game of tit for tat that goes on for so long that both sides forget the original cause.
So let's try to step out of this trap...

Of course the cause, as every Jew and Christian knows, goes way back.



"Blessed are the peacemakers".  Jesus was not referring to the deathly silent 'peace' that settles along with the radioactive debris.

May God have mercy on us all, including you and I ironglow, brothers after all.

[ironglow]

  Rio;
  You misread me completely!  I am not in favor of, nor capable in any way to "unleash the dogs of war".  On the contrary, I am simply remarking as to how the Iranian regime is right at this moment, grooming the "pit bulls" of conflict!
  Israel has already said they will not be uprooted.  For their part, the Iranian regime (since 1976) has said they want to destroy Israel...Israel, who already is a nuclear power!  Obviously, it is the Iranian regime who is flirting with disaster..
     You must have missed my analogy (which is simple) that for you or me to smack Tony Lopez is foolhardy..so it is with Iran trying a nuclear smack at Israel..
   I made it clear that such a move could ignite the whole world, I certainly don't want that...rtead my last post again..this time with comprehension.

Well thank you, ironglow.
I certainly hope I misread you, as it distresses me that anyone would advocate a preemptive and immoral war that today would undoubtedly kill many innocents.

I think the best course to start with would be to advocate a nuclear weapon-free middle-east, as Iran has advocated. Of course, since Israel is the only country in the mid-east with a nuclear arsenal they would have to take the first step.
Advocating a nuclear free middle-east..and getting one ..are two very different things.  Nuclear free is basically a dream, since the few times disarmament was tried, only the "good guys" honored it...while the bad guys kept on building; just as the cartoon above illustrates.

Until this step is taken, it would be logical and wise for the United States to immediately suspend all military aid to Israel.
  We nearly have a nuclear free middle east as it stands, Israel being the only exception.  Israel has shown no inclination to spark aggressive, land grabbing wars.  Every war between the Arabs and Israelis since the reestablishment of Israel  (1948, 1967 & 1973) have all been instances where the Arab powers were trying to take Israeli land.

As far as Iran 'flirting with disaster' - I guess standing up to a well-armed and muscular bully might be 'flirting with disaster', but it is the only honorable thing to do, after all.  The "bully" is not Israel..if the Arabs would stop being aggressive toward Israel, thing would quiet down remarkably .

It is a good thing to differentiate Jews from 'Zionists'. Many Jews, even in Israel, are not political Zionists...there is a growing anti-war movement among Jews in Israel and around the world. I have no doubt Zionism will eventually fade from the scene, not by war launched by Muslims but from the actions of peace-loving Jews themselves.
This is by no means the 'destruction of Israel'.  Of course not all Jews are patriotic..we have the same types here.  Noty all are educated enough to know of the "Land and the Promise"..and of course Israel will stand until God calls the time...and the "King of Kings" sets things straight.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/06/20/iran-and-the-bomb-a-fabricated-threat/ I don't take "anti-war" screechers very seriously..for the following reasons:

A) To claim the title of "anti-war", they must assume everyone else is "pro-war"...totally childish.
 
B) I see their slogans posted here and there and see how utterly vapid they are.  Such slogans as "war is not the answer".
Most of us detest war and hope it doesn't happen, but when Islamofacist fanatics attack us as on 9/11 what is the answer?  They freely admit they have no intentions of stopping their attacks on our country..
Would the peaceniks have us surrender?  Knowing that of the billion and a half Muslims..even a small fraction being trerrorists..would have over a million Islamofacists out there looking for a chance to strike..what is the answer? 

I prefer burying the hatchet to 'grinding an ax'.  That is my viewpoint, and why not express it?  It pretty much depends upon just where the Islamofacists plan on burying the hatchet..
To prefer peace to war is to affirm human life. I value all human life, that includes, among others, both Jewish and Muslim.
  I have heard peaceniks say those phrases for decades... but SOME of them are the very same people advocating for the death of pre-born boys & girls...  Those particular people just don't pass the "smell test"..

Pro-life means pro-life, before and after birth.
 You constant calls for and attempted justifications for war, well-documented here, speak for themselves.  Find a clear instance, please..  To lead others into error is far worse than personal wrongs alone.   And I know war propaganda when I stumble across it. It has an unmistakable smell.
Because I have done that - encouraged others to war.  Right now, I am counselling the avoidance of war . The proposition is very simple...Iran coulkd avoid conflict if they would abandon their aims at nuclear weapons.  If they would clear that table today, tensions would immediately lessen.
How I regret that!  I have repented, asked forgiveness, and now try to make amends to the best of my poor abilities.

But our discussion is becoming a circular argument that goes nowhere.... ad infinitum...
In the same sense, 'war is not the answer' - war is simply a Hatfield/McCoy game of tit for tat that goes on for so long that both sides forget the original cause.
    Sure it is..but my..
  QUESTION to you is; .."How would you stop it"?  Would you suggest we surrender to a fanatical enemy..or simply play "rope-a-dope', trying to 'absorb' their attacks..which would only increase?  What would YOU do?

So let's try to step out of this trap... Most sensible folks would like to step out of it..

  ..But if you recall, The U.S. tried to "step out" after the:
 
1) The murder of an entire olympic team at Munich in 1972
 
2) Kidnapping of our entire embassy staff in Teheran in 1979
 
3) The destruction of 283 Marines & their barracks barracks in Lebanon
 
4) The bombing of our embassies in Africa
 
5) The bombing of Khobar towers
 
6) the first bombing of the Twin Towers
 
7) The bombing of the USS Cole...and many other instances, too numerous to mention
 
  For a super power, the U.S. showed extreme patience.. and 9/11 was finally.."the straw that broke the camel's back"  or rather the camel drivers back.

Of course the cause, as every Jew and Christian knows, goes way back.  It sure does..almost 4,000 years! (Genesis 16:11,12)



"Blessed are the peacemakers".  Jesus was not referring to the deathly silent 'peace' that settles along with the radioactive debris.  Nor was he referring to those who would surrender and bow down to worship the god of the Ishmaelites..

May God have mercy on us all, including you and I ironglow, brothers after all.  God (the real God) has much mercy and shows it daily..but He showed it most abundantly that day when I asked him into my heart and became "born again".. 
  Shalom, maranatha
 
P.S. ..Please if you will, answer the QUESTION above.