Author Topic: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong? (Read 2565 times)

Buckskin · « **Reply #30 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:52:04 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 28, 2012, 08:48:02 AM

I don't think any admission is forthcoming. If there's nothing in the way of compelling evidence to the contrary, it's basically just his word against theirs.

True, but I believe that the USADA has the damning evidence and will be presenting it soon. OR Armstrong gave up his appeal to keep it under the rug, which would make a lot of sense as to why he will never address it again...

Shu · « **Reply #31 on:** August 28, 2012, 11:35:16 AM »

I don't know what Lance did in private, on tours or anything else. I really would like to see compelling evidence not just testimony from people caught cheating. Show me the damning physical evidence I will will shout cheater.

Olympic medalists are tested Lance got the bronze in 2000, he seems to have passed that one.

He underwent a 2 year federal investigation with out being charged with anything. Now the USADA steps forward and says guilty. The man claiming Lance is guilty is the same one Lance would have to appeal to. Sounds like a stacked deck.

scratcherky · « **Reply #32 on:** August 28, 2012, 11:47:11 AM »

They may take titles away but they can not take wins away. The court of public opinion is overwhelmingly on Armstrong's side.

Buckskin · « **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:13:23 AM »

Not much for him to stand on anymore, time for Lance to man-up and admit he used.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:25:36 AM »

guess innocent until proven guilty isn't in fashion any more .

Buckskin · « **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:43:12 AM »

I don't know how much more proof they would need, aside from an outright admission of guilt. Which would be the right thing to do at this point... Guilty people are sent to prison every day on much less evidence than is against Armstrong...

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »

I'm not so sure about that. What they have done is presented what amounts to circumstantial evidence based on possibly coerced testimony. And the testimony is from people who were already caught doping, so they themselves were cheaters. The tests performed for races are entirely non-circumstantial, and based on the science of the day. The new scientific information may or may not be true, but it is suspect already because USADA is in the business of one thing and one thing only: prosecuting people for doping. It's a case when your only tool is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.

As for proof of guilt, I don't think so. For a credible process there needs to be a prosecution, a defense, and a court. In this system there is only a prosecution. A defense was attempted, but there was no court to take it to. So the whole paradigm of guilt and innocence doesn't apply here in the absence of a system that is capable of judging.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:58:11 AM »

Quote from: Buckskin on October 11, 2012, 09:13:23 AM

Not much for him to stand on anymore, time for Lance to man-up and admit he used.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

read it , looks like a witch hunt .

Buckskin · « **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2012, 11:15:44 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 11, 2012, 10:58:11 AM

Quote from: Buckskin on October 11, 2012, 09:13:23 AM
Not much for him to stand on anymore, time for Lance to man-up and admit he used.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

read it , looks like a witch hunt .

That is because you want to believe that he is innocent, instead of looking at the facts. They definately wanted him, and singled him out because of his wins, right or wrong. But there is way to much evidence to believe that he is clean. Unfortunately nearly all of competitive bike riders are dirty, so their stripping him really is for show only... But if he were a man he would admit his cheating. He will never do that though, at least not until he is an old man and not able to make any more $$$. Fact is he probably would do it again even though he was caught, because he would have been an average rider doing it clean and nobody would even know his name.

gypsyman · « **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2012, 11:21:58 AM »

Woulda,coulda, shoulda. Agree with Shootall. Their taking hearsay talk from some over a decade ago. Somebody just wants to make themselves a name for them selves. Sure this isn't a prosecuter from the Duke Lacross team fiasco! gypsyman

Buckskin · « **Reply #40 on:** October 11, 2012, 04:04:45 PM »

Well you guys keep that blind eye as lookout, and everything should be fine. 26 witnesses, 11 team mates, blood tests showing possitives proving that he was trying to keep one step ahead of the tests, avoiding testers, dropping out of races when they caught up with him. AND he will not even comment on the issue, sounds exactly what an innocent man would do...

dukkillr · « **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2012, 02:17:09 AM »

Some of you either don't know what "hearsay" and "circumstantial" mean, or you don't understand the evidence against him.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2012, 04:45:14 AM »

I have never cared for bike racing . I don't really care for LA to be honest. But after all these years and the test ( have to be quite honest if they tested me over 60 times I would consider it invasive and resort to finding ways to curb it. The Feds couldn't find abuse and I feel they have as good of ways as anyone. The ones saying there could be abuse or the test may suggest abuse after all these years and from a man who took drugs to fight cancer seems like a witch hunt and I do know what circumstantial meand . Maybe some of ya'll should consider the term self serving as in making ones job nessary for the ones attacking him .
I admit I may be provem wrong but I say what it looks like to me now.
Also Lance did more to put bikes in the lime light than anyone else ever has now I would care if it went away and never wasted another TV spot.

Shu · « **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:06:56 AM »

If you can't prove your case with good physical evidence, just lean on people with enough threats they will testify the way you want them to.

The USADA is not a court, they are an adminstrative body. They aren't answerable to anyone actually. The courts have some checks and balances. The man accusing LA is the final arbitrater in the matter. His office wields enogh power to end careers without trials.

As stated I don't know what Lance may have done or not done. There is coerced testimony and plea bargins to make him look guilty. The Olympic committee and the Tour de France have not weighed in on the doping issue with Lance. Lance bronze medaled and passed the tests, the Tour isn't saying anything. So I would actually like to see Lance get some due process without having the doo spread about him.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #44 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:20:07 AM »

Another thing to consider is the changing definition of doping. Let's say that Armstrong did do blood doping (i.e., taking his own blood, then transfusing it back in just before a race so that he would have better oxygen carrying capacity). But if he did that before it was against the rules, then it wasn't doping at the time of the race.

As for the hearsay, some of the testimony is described as not being based on direct experience. that makes it hearsay. As for circumstantial evidence, the tests Armstrong underwent at the time of the races was objective scientific evidence using the state of practice of the day. It was not circumstantial at the time. It was the standard used by the racing organization, and it is what was used to determine whether doping was being performed.

This is a witch hunt.

PowPow · « **Reply #45 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:57:12 AM »

I agree, Conan.
While there is a difference between being innocent and being not guilty, there is also double jeopardy. On the day of the each drug test, Lance was found not guilty. USADA doesn't seem to get that. They should go after OJ now that Kato is talking, or go after some of the NFL defensive players from the 60's who were lauded as great players for putting their head into a running back's knee now that its against the rules.
FWIW - Blood doping has been banned in bike racing since about the '84 Olympics.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #46 on:** October 12, 2012, 06:26:03 AM »

I find it amazing that someone would even think of blood doping as a technique that might work. I don't doubt that Armstrong may have done the maximum to get every advantage possible, and some of it may have been shady. It just seems wrong that USADA would persist in this line of attack. They could have taken the high road and tried to work for improved testing or other standards, but they choose to simply attack people.

srussell · « **Reply #47 on:** October 12, 2012, 07:00:08 AM »

It would cost him millions fighting it(government lawyers have deep pockets).and he could still lose millions in endorsements. and the powers to be are not going to stop going after him.so think about what you would do. keep fighting a endless fight are say I'm done with it

Buckskin · « **Reply #48 on:** October 12, 2012, 07:12:36 AM »

So Lance using drugs that are technically illigal, but there wasn't a test for it is ok??? There are 31 witnesses here, not all of them are getting plea bargains or anything for that matter. It seems that Lance was the ring leader and bullied the rest of the team into his way or the highway. Way too many witnesses for this not to be the case. It's not like you have one or two people testifying agaisnt hime its 31!!! Think about that number for a minute without clouding your mind with what you would like to be the case....

It doesn't cost you a dime to step up to a microphone and state that you are innocent. Not a dime, and he has said that he will never address this issue again. That is not what an innocent man does...

Justification is one of man's strongest instincts which also is one of the hardest to ignore which is why so many people cannot just look at the facts without their emotions influencing their judgement.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #49 on:** October 12, 2012, 08:29:57 AM »

He spent years defending this, using microphones, print, lawyers etc. I think he probably spent tens of millions of dimes on this. I think he now realizes that he needs to do no further justification because it is clear that a witch hunt is targeting him, and that the public realizes it. In other words, he won.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** October 12, 2012, 08:33:58 AM »

Quote from: srussell on October 12, 2012, 07:00:08 AM

It would cost him millions fighting it(government lawyers have deep pockets).the govt found no evidence of cheating so their pockets are of no concernand he could still lose millions in endorsementsprobly has. and the powers to be are not going to stop going after him.so think about what you would do. keep fighting a endless fight are say I'm done with it done with it ,

Buckskin · « **Reply #51 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:04:47 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on October 12, 2012, 08:29:57 AM

He spent years defending this, using microphones, print, lawyers etc. I think he probably spent tens of millions of dimes on this. I think he now realizes that he needs to do no further justification because it is clear that a witch hunt is targeting him, and that the public realizes it. In other words, he won.

He won?

He is about to be stripped of every pertainent race title, likely have to repay millions of dollars in winnings and endorsements and you say he won. That is odd to say the least. I don't know about you, but if it were me and I was not guilty there is no way in hell that I would sit back and let my reputation be ruined by falsehoods. I would at the very least speak my mind after this judgement. But no, he says just that he will never address this issue again. That is what a guilty person does, and one who is trying to reason with his conscience. He knows that there is literally piles of evidence against him and he is keeping his mouth shut as do try and limit the damage that he has already put on himself. He is now paying the piper for his prior actions.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #52 on:** October 12, 2012, 10:18:02 AM »

Quote

What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?

Ohhh geee, could it be the TRUTH that justifies it??

26 witness' and 12 teammates just couldn't ALL be lieing, especially when the team mates admit to doing it too!

DM

Jack Ripper · « **Reply #53 on:** October 12, 2012, 10:52:29 AM »

I am from the east side of Plano Tx where lance is from. I support him completely. I have never seen a person work harder to get where they are in life than lance. His devotion to training and the sport of racing were and are unmatched. What they are doing to him is B.S. The spirit of Salem Mass dies slow in this country. Personaly I never saw lance on a broom.

Buckskin · « **Reply #54 on:** October 12, 2012, 03:51:45 PM »

Quote from: Jack Ripper on October 12, 2012, 10:52:29 AM

I am from the east side of Plano Tx where lance is from. I support him completely. I have never seen a person work harder to get where they are in life than lance. His devotion to training and the sport of racing were and are unmatched. What they are doing to him is B.S. The spirit of Salem Mass dies slow in this country. Personaly I never saw lance on a broom.

This post makes my point... You only believe what you want to, not what is obvious. Just because you are from his home town, and he worked hard, and he devoted his life to the sport and he raised millions of dollars for cancer research doesn't mean he is innocent. Of course he worked hard, probably trained more than anyone in the sport. That is why he was able to win 7 tours in a row, he was the best cheater of them all. The sport is truely contaminated with cheaters, I would be willing to bet that it is the most tainted competitive sport there is. The fact that he won 7 in a row almost proves that he is a cheat by simple logic, that he couldn't have done it without cheating...

Jack Ripper · « **Reply #55 on:** October 12, 2012, 04:27:49 PM »

Quote from: Buckskin on October 12, 2012, 03:51:45 PM

Quote from: Jack Ripper on October 12, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
I am from the east side of Plano Tx where lance is from. I support him completely. I have never seen a person work harder to get where they are in life than lance. His devotion to training and the sport of racing were and are unmatched. What they are doing to him is B.S. The spirit of Salem Mass dies slow in this country. Personaly I never saw lance on a broom.

This post makes my point... You only believe what you want to, not what is obvious. Just because you are from his home town, and he worked hard, and he devoted his life to the sport and he raised millions of dollars for cancer research doesn't mean he is innocent. Of course he worked hard, probably trained more than anyone in the sport. That is why he was able to win 7 tours in a row, he was the best cheater of them all. The sport is truely contaminated with cheaters, I would be willing to bet that it is the most tainted competitive sport there is. The fact that he won 7 in a row almost proves that he is a cheat by simple logic, that he couldn't have done it without cheating...

Show me some hard evidence not a bunch lies and gossip. His physiology is superior and his ability to take the pain and keep pushing in those mountains is why he won seven Tours. If you think drugs will do that you are sadly mistaken.

Buckskin · « **Reply #56 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:06:06 PM »

Quote from: Jack Ripper on October 12, 2012, 04:27:49 PM

Quote from: Buckskin on October 12, 2012, 03:51:45 PM
Quote from: Jack Ripper on October 12, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
I am from the east side of Plano Tx where lance is from. I support him completely. I have never seen a person work harder to get where they are in life than lance. His devotion to training and the sport of racing were and are unmatched. What they are doing to him is B.S. The spirit of Salem Mass dies slow in this country. Personaly I never saw lance on a broom.

This post makes my point... You only believe what you want to, not what is obvious. Just because you are from his home town, and he worked hard, and he devoted his life to the sport and he raised millions of dollars for cancer research doesn't mean he is innocent. Of course he worked hard, probably trained more than anyone in the sport. That is why he was able to win 7 tours in a row, he was the best cheater of them all. The sport is truly contaminated with cheaters, I would be willing to bet that it is the most tainted competitive sport there is. The fact that he won 7 in a row almost proves that he is a cheat by simple logic, that he couldn't have done it without cheating...
Show me some hard evidence not a bunch lies and gossip. His physiology is superior and his ability to take the pain and keep pushing in those mountains is why he won seven Tours. If you think drugs will do that you are sadly mistaken.

LOL, now that is funny. Why do you think they take the steroids and hormones, etc? To get high? It is to be able to push the body further, heal quicker and be in a superior condition that would not be achievable on desire alone. That is why they are illegal... There is 200 pages of evidence, 26 witness, 11 of which were teammates of Lance who also admitted to using. Feel free to investigate on your own, I can't feed spoon feed it all to you. The problem is, you don't want to believe, because he is from your home town or whatever... If you would put that aside and look at it logically instead of emotionally you would not be able to dismiss the facts as you are now.

Jack Ripper · « **Reply #57 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:15:38 PM »

What hard evidence ? The man has been tested more than anyone on earth. Where are all the positive test results? Your the kind of juror who would convict someone when there is reasonable doubt. Man I feel sorry for the defendant when your serving jury duty.

Buckskin · « **Reply #58 on:** October 13, 2012, 03:20:52 AM »

Seriously Jack,

Did you read the attached article and see what they have on him? Much more than would be needed to convict beyond reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt means there needs to be enough evidence against him to the extent that there is no reasonable doubt in the mind of a reasonable person. Your first post on the subject pretty much eliminates you from the reasonable person aspect, "I am from the east side of Plano Tx where lance is from and I support him completely". IF you were able to take your feelings about the guy out of your opinion you would be able see what is clear. Also, if this was an Italian racer with the same set of circumstances against him I bet you 10-1 you would have a different opinion.

Is Lance a decent guy, maybe. Did he do more for the sport of bike racing than anyone in the sport, probably. Did he raise millions of dollars for cancer research, definitely. Are they singling him out because he won 7 Tours, yep. But all of that doesn't mean that he didn't cheat or give him a free pass.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #59 on:** October 13, 2012, 04:00:55 AM »

Is there any evidence that doping was done during the seven tours? People drink alcohol and then go,to work after the effect wears off. Does that mean they are letting booze affect their performance at work?