Author Topic: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong? (Read 2578 times)

Conan The Librarian · « **on:** August 24, 2012, 03:32:37 AM »

These cyclists and olympic cyclists and other athletes are tested continually before and during and after events when they are competing. Armstrong has been tested at least as thoroughly as anyone else. No evidence was found of wrong-doing. So why are they trying to strip him of his medals? What could possibly justify that? This means that any athlete who performs an improbable feat can be hounded until they capitulate, despite a lack of evidence.

My understanding is that there has been one man in an American anti-doping organization that has continued what Armstrong accurately describes as a "witch hunt", and that man has been allowed to get away with it.

As far as I'm concerned, Armstrong won fair and square, and there's no evidence to the contrary, so he deserves to keep his medals, the record of his accomplishments, and his dignity.

If there are to be any witch hunts here, it should be an investigation into the anti-doping group that has hounded him, specifically the one individual who has been responsible for all this misery.

powderman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2012, 03:57:14 AM »

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/08/23/armstrong-ending-fight-against-doping-charges-putting-7-tour-titles-at-risk/

He may be banned from competition for life and lose 7 titles. POWDERMAN.

Old Fart · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2012, 06:17:57 AM »

I merged these two threads together so we didn't have two conversations on the same basic topic.

kynardsj · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2012, 06:32:47 AM »

The fact is that Armstrong has to pay for attorneys and such. He could go absolutely broke fighting this witch hunt. No telling how much money he has spent thus far. Now they say that because he has stopped fighting he is guilty. What a bunch of jerks.

scratcherky · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2012, 06:52:28 AM »

Lance Armstrong's record speaks for itself and no one can deny what he has accomplished. His record wins will stand the test of time.

magooch · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2012, 06:59:44 AM »

Seems to me that Armstrong might have a lawsuit if the outfit that is bugging him has any funds. Otherwise, maybe he needs to take out a contract on the antagonist.

But where are the investigational reporters?

Shu · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2012, 03:31:39 AM »

Over 400 urine samples and none contained any banned substance. 2 "witnesses" who cut deals with the USADA to have their own sentences reduced. These 2 "witnesses" have testified they saw Lance using.

The Tour de France folks have asked for proof of Lances guilt before issuing any statement. The Olympic commitee as also asked for the evidence, since Lance won a bronze in the 2000 Sydnet Olympics that could be stripped as well. Of course he passed the Olympic testing as well.

The USADA has hounded Lance for 10 years and recently Lance was investigated by the Fed for 2 years. The Fed said they found no evidnce of doping.

Lance was supposed to file an appeal with the same man who said he is guilty. Does any of this make sense?

Sure Lance is a tad arrogant and as pissed of a few folks with his arrogance, I can imagine if I had won 7 tours and a bronze medal at the olympics I might be a tad arrogant also.

blind ear · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2012, 05:12:37 AM »

France/liberal Europe doesn't wan't a white American Superman. ear

Shu · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2012, 05:15:24 AM »

The USADA is not French or European. It is an American orginization, basically one person it's guy in charge that is hounding Lance.

lakota · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2012, 05:16:20 AM »

they can do what they want but nothing they do will ever change the fact that Lance won those races.

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ironglow · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2012, 05:17:01 AM »

IT seems that with the hundreds of tests Armstrong took over the years..1, perhaps 2 'showed concern'..nothing proven.
I am inclined to believe that 1, perhaps 2 on the board have an "axe to grind".

Fighting it has been VERY costly..and finally Armstrong has said.."I know I was clean and my wins were clean", so rather than to spend a million fighhting it, I'll just bow out.

We found with the frivilous lawsuits hurled at Sarah Palin as Gov..after $500,000 in costs...which she didn't have. In order to save what she had and keep the state govt running, she had to bow out.

The sneakiest people already know they can destroy a person financially ..and otherwise, on completely false charges.

BTW: Eventually all 16 false charges against Palin were either proven wrong ..or tossed out by the judges ..as scurrilous..

Warning: That same thing could be done with you or me..

blind ear · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2012, 07:21:55 AM »

Quote from: Shu on August 25, 2012, 05:15:24 AM

The USADA is not French or European. It is an American orginization, basically one person it's guy in charge that is hounding Lance.

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Evidently the USADA doesn't wan't a white American Superman either if they allow one man to carry on this crusade when Lance hasn't tested hot YET.
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If fourn not guilty the accusers should have to foot the bill. That would reduce the case load drasticaly, the lawyers would never allow that to happen. ear

Buckskin · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2012, 05:28:10 PM »

Hmmmm, don't know where my last post went on this topic... But, sorry to say, Armstrong is guilty. I wish he wasn't, but there is so much proof against him it's ridiculous. Human instinct is to believe what you want instead of what is true and this is a very good example. Doping is rampant in the sport and it's probably the dirtiest sport in the world. There is evidence that the team sold sponsor equipment for doping supplies Evidence that he in fact did fail 3 tests in one year, only to have the B sample come back inconclusive, suggesting that there was a cover up in the lab. Evidence that he forged a prescription after a failed sample. Multiple witnesses that say they saw him doping and that he told them that he doped. Lance has said that he will never again address the issue, likely because he knows that there is some real damning evidence coming down the pipe. Otherwise, why would an innocent guy at the very least not stand up for himself, lawsuits aside... There is no way that he could have won 7 tours without doping, especially since all of the rest of them likely dope. Still impressive that he won, you just have to use your head for this one, not emotion..

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2012, 12:59:49 AM »

While I am not a fan of Armstrong ..or any other major sports figure for that matter, I am not ready to mentally convict him.
Just as most folks really don't want an accused murderer executed without some very firm proof..I don't care to see a man's whole life acheivement (7 world titles) ripped from him without substantial proof.
As it stands, much of the "proof" seems to come from allegations (a book) by a fellow named Landis, who habitually lost to Armstrong.
While he could be correct, I have heard some ugly things said by losers..against winners, even in high school sports. Besides, controversey helps to sell a book..

Here is a rundown of the situation: http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/you-jury

As I said, I don't give a fig about the big world of pro sports..I would like to see a hard, unwavering conviction before smashing a man's life. Unless they have solid, incontravertable proof, perhaps they should "let sleeping dogs lie'..
Even the cited article finishes with this inconclusive statement:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
OUR TAKE: Whichever side wins this battle probably wins the war. A draw—inconclusive effect on the jury—favors Armstrong. The test samples were drawn for research only—in part, to help develop tests such as the one for EPO that began in the 2000 season—so there was no twin A and B sample as mandated under anti-doping regulations. Those rules don't apply in federal court, so if the FDA obtains samples that can be shown to be Armstrong's and contain EPO, it could stand as solid proof. Armstrong's legal team could question the chain of custody and, as with any compromised evidence, the admissibility.

Buckskin · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2012, 02:07:52 AM »

Well the war is over. He has been stripped fo the titles and Armstrong gave up, and it's not about money. He has plenty of it if he truely thought that he could clear his name it would no question be worth it. Like I said before, this sport is so tainted that it's likely that every winner in the last 25 years cheated. And in that case, how likely is it that someone wins it 7 times without the doping? I figured he was cheating one way or another when he was winning all of those titles, just was one step ahead of the tests....

I really don't have any grudge or bad feelings about the guy, but it's just too obvious. He has raised something like 450 million for cancer research, so that stands alone that he has done something possitive with his life, titles aside. So if he sticks a needle in his arm so he peddles faster and longer, what the heck do I care...

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2012, 02:39:02 AM »

If he were injecting himself, or someone was doing it for him, the testing procedures would have caught it long ago. Drugs would have been found in his system. The only evidence they have amounts to hearsay.

I hate to see this man discredited in such a vile way.

What's next? Will they try to strip him of having been first to walk on the moon? (wink wink)

Dee · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2012, 02:45:47 AM »

Lance Armstrong rides a bicycle for a living. Yawnnnnn.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2012, 02:54:23 AM »

as a fellow Austinite & Trek owner, Lance is a'ight by me.

Quote from: Dee on August 26, 2012, 02:45:47 AM

Lance Armstrong rides a bicycle for a living. Yawnnnnn.

Extremely tough guy, Lance. Riding a bike for a living? Sign me up! It's at least as virtuous than giving speeding tickets and patronizing lectures... or setting tile.

Dee · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2012, 03:03:38 AM »

Yes! Riding a bicycle is very "virtuous".

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2012, 03:04:49 AM »

Tour de france is the Top test of human endurance and spirit. It is the greatest of the athletic sports. All other sports are no better than distant second.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 26, 2012, 03:05:27 AM »

My favorite form of physical exercise...

Shu · « **Reply #21 on:** August 26, 2012, 04:07:47 AM »

Riding a bike is so easy, try riding it at 30+mph powered by only yourself without a down slope to maintain that speed. When you can do that you will be on the low end of bicycle racing.

Why stop fighting if you are innocent? Well you can run out of money to pay lawyers. When a government agency puts you in the spotlight it can literaly cost millions to defend yourself.

Landis is pointing the finger at Armstrong becuase as a habitual loser who did dope to win he got caught and cannot deal with his own conscience.

Show some physical evidence, not just someone who got caughts testimony making a deal for a lighter sentence.

Over 400 negative samples yet Doping Landis is to be believed for a lighter sentence. Show me the physical evidence and I will be the first to shout cheater.

Buckskin · « **Reply #22 on:** August 26, 2012, 08:37:56 AM »

Quote from: Shu on August 26, 2012, 04:07:47 AM

Why stop fighting if you are innocent? Well you can run out of money to pay lawyers. When a government agency puts you in the spotlight it can literally cost millions to defend yourself.

Landis is pointing the finger at Armstrong becuase as a habitual loser who did dope to win he got caught and cannot deal with his own conscience.

Show some physical evidence, not just someone who got caughts testimony making a deal for a lighter sentence.

Over 400 negative samples yet Doping Landis is to be believed for a lighter sentence. Show me the physical evidence and I will be the first to shout cheater.

If he stops fighting he will lose many more millions in sponsorships than it would cost to fight it if he were actually innocent. He has said that he won't even address the issue anymore. That is a white flag in my opinion.... I have a feeling he realizes that the most damning evidence is yet to come out in public. He may have even made a deal with the USADA to stop fighting it and they won't make it public. Who knows, but an innocent man at the very least would fight it in public if not in court.

Landis is a weasel, but doesn't mean he's not telling the truth. Probably is mad that Lance got away with it and he got busted.

There is plenty of physical evidence if you want to see it, problem is "fan's" make excuses for athletes...

I've driven in my truck thousands of times, driven by hundreds of speed traps only had 2 speeding tickets in 25 years and they were when I was young. That doesn't mean that I don't speed....

PowPow · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2012, 09:57:13 AM »

Don't know what to think about Lance. I raced bicycles off and on from 1973 though about 2003. Been reading about what a phenom Lance was since he was 16 years old. When the Nike commercial came on where Lance said "what am I on? I'm on my bike 8 hours a day!", I responded hell yeah.

I don't know what really happened. I do know that the sport of bike racing has always been on the leading edge of sports physiology, and also on the leading edge of Performance Enhancing Drugs and detection. In the 1950's, some racers took strychnine for performance enhancement for some reason (isn't that a pesticide?). I think it was the East Germans who invented blood doping, which is removing your own blood during a rested state and re-inserting it just before a race, providing more oxygen carrying capacity for higher endurance. No drugs, just your own blood. There was no way to test for your own blood being in your body, but you can detect the presence of trace elements of the plastic bags they store the blood in. EPO is a drug given to boost red blood count in anemic people. Again, higher red blood count equals higher oxygen carrying capacity for endurance races. Also can turn your blood to jello, causing stokes. Its pretty easily detected.

There are also the drugs you hear about in US mainstream sports (steriods, amphetimines, etc), along with masking agents (drugs that do not enhance performance but hide the presence of PEDs).
The protocols for detecting these doping controls have been in place for a long time.
Its hard to belive that one could get by doping controls so many times.

From what I have read about the USADA, they serve to clean up the sport by prosecution. No prosecution, no reason to continue to exist.

Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, and Alberto Contador all served supporting roles for Lance Armstrong's wins, then all wanted to be Lance Armstrong. All won the TDF and were subsequently stripped of the title. Sounds like sour grapes.

George Hincapie, on the other hand, rode in support of Lance in all his wins, and while he could have become a champion in his own right, continued to serve a supporting role for others in their TDF wins. Met Hincapie briefly at a reception in 96 before the Atlanta Olympics; didn't say much. Still doesn't. If he ever does, listen.

ironglow · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2012, 12:17:51 AM »

Quote from: Shu on August 26, 2012, 04:07:47 AM

Riding a bike is so easy, try riding it at 30+mph powered by only yourself without a down slope to maintain that speed. When you can do that you will be on the low end of bicycle racing.

Why stop fighting if you are innocent? Well you can run out of money to pay lawyers. When a government agency puts you in the spotlight it can literaly cost millions to defend yourself.

Landis is pointing the finger at Armstrong becuase as a habitual loser who did dope to win he got caught and cannot deal with his own conscience.

Show some physical evidence, not just someone who got caughts testimony making a deal for a lighter sentence.

Over 400 negative samples yet Doping Landis is to be believed for a lighter sentence. Show me the physical evidence and I will be the first to shout cheater.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Right on, Shu !

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:11:22 AM »

Great post, PowWow! Hincapie is still one of the world's top cyclists.

I hope this turns into a case of Armstrong being bigger than usada. I think this is not over by a long shot, and is just the beginning of a long public relations battle that will eventually discredit usada, and vindicate Armstrong.

Shu · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:20:44 AM »

When you become target of an investigation and have to pay for lawyers and produce mountains of evidence to clear yourself it becomes tiring very tiring. Sure Lance has tons of money and over 400 negative samples. What evidence does the USADA have?

I too have been over the speed limit in my car and haven't gotten a ticket, when you got caught speeding there was a LEO there with something to measure your speed and write it down. That is called evidence. Lance peed in a bottle it was tested and was negative. That too is evidence. For me to say I saw you speeding when I got a ticket for speeding is childish and the LEO will laugh at me. The LEO will not even bother looking for you.

The Tour de France is still waiting for evidence to be produced by the USADA. The USADA hasn't responded to them. The IOC is still waiting for evidence to be presented to them.

The USADA stripped Lance of his titles but they haven't touched that bronze medal.
I wonder why? Could the burden of proof be too much for them?

magooch · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:26:22 AM »

Dope, or no dope, Mr. Armstrong is innocent until absolutely proven guilty--in my book. If everyone else was using some kind of enhancement--seems to me like that squared the deal. And anyway, it's just a sport and Lance still rode a mean bike.

Buckskin · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:43:42 AM »

Fine, he doesn't have the money to fight it in court. So then why has he said that he will never address the issue again? That is not what an innocent man does... That is what a guy who knows there is evidence out there that will likely come out and he won't be able to defend himself, so he takes that road....

I guess is that we will see what happens next. My guess is that sometime in the future he will come clean and admit he cheated...

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #29 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:48:02 AM »

I don't think any admission is forthcoming. If there's nothing in the way of compelling evidence to the contrary, it's basically just his word against theirs.