Author Topic: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?  (Read 2572 times)

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Offline dukkillr

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2012, 04:38:52 AM »
Is there any evidence that doping was done during the seven tours?
Yes, quite a bit.  I'm starting to think maybe some of you haven't been following this very closely...

Offline briarpatch

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2012, 06:25:43 AM »
Not saying he's a bad man but I have never doubted he doped. Again I will used the catch all. Where there is smoke there is fire.
When he decided to give in he did so with the knowledge that they will take all the items on paper and few trophies but he will keep the money. When you cheat that is what it is all about, money nothing else, money.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2012, 06:30:54 AM »
Is Lance a decent guy, maybe.  Did he do more for the sport of bike racing than anyone in the sport, probably.  Did he raise millions of dollars for cancer research, definitely. Are they singling him out because he won 7 Tours, yep. But all of that doesn't mean that he didn't cheat or give him a free pass.
Sounds about right.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline joeinwv

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2012, 07:08:50 AM »
Starting to not look like a witch hunt. I think this is going to involve pretty much every top level team / competitor for the last decade. Certainly seems like the entire USPS team was doping. Blood transfusions, cortisone pills, etc. Witnesses are saying you couldn't compete at the top levels without it.
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2012, 08:25:39 AM »
Well a couple more chapters have been added to the Lance Armstrong case.  Nike dropped Lance as a sponsor and may be implicated in the cover up of his possitive tests.  Reports are that Nike paid $500,000 to UCI president Hein Verbruggen to cover up a positive drug test. 
 
 
Armstrong also today stepped down as head of the Livestrong foundation, but has yet to deny the USADA’s scathing report.  Only to say he had decided “to spare the foundation any negative effects as a result of controversy surrounding my cycling career”
 
 
Armstrong will get what he deserves, it's just to bad that the foundation that has helped so many cancer patients will suffer with him... Although, if he didn't cheat in the first place, it never would have been created anyway.... 
Buckskin

"I have tried to live my life so that my family would love me and my friends respect me. The others can do whatever the hell they please.   --John Wayne

Offline williamlayton

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2012, 04:05:06 AM »
I have kept up with this conversation in sound bites, so this may be a copy cat response.
It is not about Lance--IMO. It is about the sport  and a level playing field.
NOW, we could level the playing field two ways. 1) Anything goes, and some would argue that is the best playing field. 2) This is my choice. You create rules for several reasons. To level the playing field, protect the participants & to allow every level of the sport to be the same for the level we are discussing.
There are obviously Pro Ranks in almost every sport & different levels according to age, professional, skill level and abilities.
Drugs may very well be behind Lance's bout with cancer. Now, as a smoker, I am the first to admit that I want better cancer treatments. This obviously where Lance comes from.
Now, we can level the playing field two ways--it is the opinion of sports, to limit drug use. That is fine with me and Lance pays the price for cheating and----IMO---should have to re-pay all prize money and income made from the sport------NOW, I aint gonna hold my breath until this happens--put a mirror under my nose.
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2012, 04:28:22 AM »
I think the anything goes would be the most interesting by far. Men created into sci-fy monsters, guys hearts exploding on the courses, etc... Just not a good example for our kids. But very interesting.  Imagine if pro football went that route!  You think the NFL has issues with concussions? Wow, no telling what would happen there...
Buckskin

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Offline oldandslow

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2012, 05:32:40 AM »
In what I have been reading about the whole mess including today I am seeing a lot of "alleged" and still no "proven" facts.

Basically it's a big Ho-Hum to me. Reading about it is just a way to kill time.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2012, 05:53:58 AM »
  With his HUGE pool of lawyers, he wouldn't have given up, unless he knew they had the "facts!"
 
  He knows he's better off to not have them lay all the "facts" out for everyone to see...
 
  DM

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2012, 08:22:00 AM »
It's important to remember that the current situaiton is no different than any other celebrity with endorsements. The companies that they work for dump them instantly as soon as there is a public relations problem. For example, Kirby Puckett of baseball fame lost all of his endorsements after a domestic violence problem. That didn't change anything about his outstanding performance as an athlete. Likewise with Pete Rose, also of baseball fame, who arguably deserves to be in the baseball hall of fame, but is being blocked because of his history with gambling. Again, it doesn't reflect badly on his athleticism or outstanding record as a top player.
 
Not to seem like I'm intent on defending Armstrong, but when you have an organization that has one mission and one mission only, and that mimssion is to prosecute doping bicyclists, you can bet your life they will do whatever it takes to justify that paycheck. Who is next, Greg Lamonde? It wouldn't surprise me to learn they are going after him.
 
As for any references to Armstrongs lawyers, consider that this individual is up against a funded bureaucracy with huge resources and an enormous and focused budget. They can walk all over anybody they want to.
 
I think Armstrong did the right thing. He "stopped the bleeding" by stopping what must have been a very costly legal battle that was getting him nowhere. He lost some endorsements, at least temporarily, and he is probably still in good shape financially. That's a good way to end it, all things considered.
 
 
 
 

Offline PowPow

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2012, 11:30:27 AM »
I think Lemond was always clean, just comes off as a bit of a whiner, which did not make him popular with the media.
His 89 victory by 8 seconds was remarkable when you consider that his Zed teammates were not capable of supporting a GC leader.
The difference between people who do stuff and people who don't do stuff is that the people who do stuff do stuff.

Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2012, 01:58:12 AM »
Most of Lance's endorsements were going to stick with him until this lastest round of evidence came out. Nike may be implicated as well for burying possitive blood tests. Do you really think that Nike would have been brought into this if there wasn't overwelming proof against Armstrong and Nike? Nike has the cash to sue the pants off of nearly any organization or individual.  I think Armstrong did the right thing by not fighting it anymore also, now all he has to do is admit his failures and move on.  I think this will happen sooner or later and when it does he may bring down the entire sport with him.  What they should do is hire him to help police doping in the sport, he would be the best at that!
 
 
 
And Pete Rose is a bad example, he was found to be and admitted to gambling on baseball, while I feel bad for the guy it is a just punishment.
Buckskin

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Offline Awf Hand

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2012, 07:02:47 AM »
I saw a chart in one of my cycling forums.
 
The chart showed all the winners of the Tour through the beginning of Lance's riding time and showed how many had already been proven to be doping. 
In stripping Lances titles, 2nd place should be awarded the "Win", correct?  Too bad 2nd through 6th were shown on this chart in most years as users of the banned EPO or something else.  So who was the first "clean" winner??  In some years it went back into the teen-positions before they had no evidence of using.
What a freakin' mess.
Just my Awf Hand comments...

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2012, 07:13:14 AM »
That sums it up very nicely Awf Hand.
 
What advantages might there be to Armstrong admitting anything? I can only think of disadvantages.
 
I imagine the europeans are happy about Armstrong's plight because they have been jealous of the successful Americans, and now, English who won the tour.
 
As for finding out who the first clean participant is, there is no heavily funded and focused bureaucracy to ferret out people who follow the doping rules.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2012, 12:15:25 PM »
It is far easier to knock the ladder out from under someone than to clmb up to their level. Those leveling the charges have freely admitted they were doping and could not beat him... therefore he had to have been doping.
 
It sounds like a lot of sour grapes. Lance is somewhat of an a**hole and those around him decided to take him down a notch or two. Too late, he is already far wealthier than they can ever imagine, and more talented as well.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2012, 01:16:32 PM »
It is far easier to knock the ladder out from under someone than to clmb up to their level. Those leveling the charges have freely admitted they were doping and could not beat him... therefore he had to have been doping.
 
It sounds like a lot of sour grapes. Lance is somewhat of an a**hole and those around him decided to take him down a notch or two. Too late, he is already far wealthier than they can ever imagine, and more talented as well.

  He may not stay wealthy though, once he looses his championship metals, he can be sued to give the award money back AND some of those he got the money from are already having their lawyers looking over the origional contracts.
 
  He's dirty, he got caught and there's a pretty good chance he will have to pay "millions" back!
 
  DM

Offline Dee

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2012, 05:19:09 PM »
You can lead the worshiper to evidence but you can't make him look at it. Is that how that goes? ???
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Offline PowPow

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2012, 05:59:34 PM »
Prize for 1st place in the TDF is a million francs,
Tradition is that the winner keeps none of it; it goes to the team with shares going to the supporting team members based on their contribution.
Winner gets fame, endorsements and starting fees in future races.
If there is money to give back, it would come from the teammates, or the team management.
Lance's big bucks came from sponsors; Nike, Trek, USPS, Oakley...
The difference between people who do stuff and people who don't do stuff is that the people who do stuff do stuff.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2012, 07:24:10 PM »
It is far easier to knock the ladder out from under someone than to clmb up to their level. Those leveling the charges have freely admitted they were doping and could not beat him... therefore he had to have been doping.
 
It sounds like a lot of sour grapes. Lance is somewhat of an a**hole and those around him decided to take him down a notch or two. Too late, he is already far wealthier than they can ever imagine, and more talented as well.

 

 
  He may not stay wealthy though, once he looses his championship metals, he can be sued to give the award money back AND some of those he got the money from are already having their lawyers looking over the origional contracts.
 
  He's dirty, he got caught and there's a pretty good chance he will have to pay "millions" back!
 
  DM
Previous sponsors have gotten the support they purchased, they will have a hard time proving any damages. Current sponsors may well be a different story. If Lance has pissed away his fortunes like Mike Tyson so be it.
 
I may have missed something but are there some failed tests that have come to light? Or are we giving creedance to accusations that have no backing other than opinion and he said she said evidence? The fact that an organization has chosen to believe an accusation is not the same as a failed test in my opinion. Lance decided to quit fighting, that is not an admission of guilt. Again I have been out of the news loop for a week and could have missed something.
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #79 on: October 20, 2012, 01:45:28 AM »
Quiver,
 
Yeah, you missed a lot.  Plenty of stuff to sort through if you want to. The fact that he quit fighting is not an admission of guilt. The fact that he has said that he will never again address this issue is an admission of guilt in my mind.
Buckskin

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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2012, 04:09:21 AM »
The UIC's ruling ends the question of whether Armstrong holds the titles. Too bad, but that's the way it is.

Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2012, 06:55:33 AM »
Lance deserves everything that is coming to him. The man is a fraud, a bully and a coward all wrapped up neatly in spandex.  I am willing to bet that it will come out that he used the foundation as a front to launder money and try to protect his legacy from investigation. 
Buckskin

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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2012, 01:27:31 PM »
I think he deserves a lot of credit for building a personal net worth of $125 million using a notoriously corrupt and dysfunctional sport like professional cycling as a means to do it. Go Lance! You da man!

Offline dukkillr

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2012, 02:01:54 PM »
I think he deserves a lot of credit for building a personal net worth of $125 million using a notoriously corrupt and dysfunctional sport like professional cycling as a means to do it. Go Lance! You da man!
As you continue to grasp, you're starting to sound desperate.  Sometimes it makes sense to take a step back and re-evaluate.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2012, 04:30:45 AM »
I think he deserves a lot of credit for building a personal net worth of $125 million using a notoriously corrupt and dysfunctional sport like professional cycling as a means to do it. Go Lance! You da man!

  I guess it won't hurt him to give a few million back then, seeing as how he cheated to get it in the first place!
 
  DM

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2012, 04:48:54 AM »
I'm not grasping, I'm marveling. The whole process has been so screwy that it's engaging.
 
It will be interesting to see what the public relations spin will be after a year from Armstrong. This is all alleged behavior, so he has a pretty long lever to work with even though he has been disgraced for the moment.

Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2012, 05:31:07 AM »
I think his lever is pretty short. He has been stripped of everything meaningful in his career, he has nobody in the bike world standing behind him, none of his sponsors are still with him. And he will now be taken to court to repay everything that is possible.  His ONLY way to save any face would be to come clean and offer to help educate young athletes about the dangers and downfalls of PED's.
 

Every once in a while a scenario comes along to remind us why it is so important for us to play by the rules and have integrity.
Buckskin

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Offline Old Fart

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2012, 08:12:33 AM »
It will be interesting to see what the public relations spin will be after a year from Armstrong.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him on "Dancing with the Stars!" next season.  ;D
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: What justifies this recent outrage against Lance Armstrong?
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2012, 08:46:10 AM »
It will be interesting to see what the public relations spin will be after a year from Armstrong.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him on "Dancing with the Stars!" next season.  ;D

That wouldn't shock me at all.
Buckskin

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