Author Topic: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.  (Read 5922 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2012, 07:41:45 AM »
Ok, I found the vid. It shows darned little and does not seem to indicate that the police created the "confrontation". They were following him, not confronting him. He appears to realize they were following, turned and pointed his gun at them.

The vid really doesn't clear up anything.
The vid shows he wasn't in a crowd so dence that it would be hard to follow him.
No matter which direction he went I'm sure that with a radio the LEOs could have intercepted him elsewhere instead of sending shots down a city street.
 
 

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2012, 07:54:08 AM »

The vid shows he wasn't in a crowd so dence that it would be hard to follow him.
No matter which direction he went I'm sure that with a radio the LEOs could have intercepted him elsewhere instead of sending shots down a city street.

True, that wasn't the densest part of the crowed area..........+1 for the cops. However, he turned and pointed his gun......they had no choice about that.

As for radioing to intercept elsewhere, we have no way of knowing other units were even available within a reasonable distance, or if he would have continued into a more crowded area.

Pure speculation.......as has been noted several times by several others.........we weren't there.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Southern Sportsman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2012, 04:00:47 AM »
Wasnt gonna say anything else on this thread, but have to say that it is a downright shame that regardless of the innocents injured and all the other what ifs, the fact that these officers just unloaded auto loading pistols at a perp in a crowd is BLATANTLY IGNORED by everyone who only want to find ANY justification for the pee pee poor tactics employed by these two trigger happy leos. Like MG Willy said, those of us who dont care to shout our realworld experience to the heavens as he put it, or thereabouts, know it doesent take TEN IMPACTS to pacify!! And those were just the "hits"! No excuse. If the crowd was not that thick, so they could see him, and he could see them, was the shower of gunfire really necessary when a well placed shot would do? You cant have your cake and eat it too. They were senior officers, so we have to rely on their experience to make those decisions.....Ok, senior officers, so even if they dont have alot of annual practice with their weapons due to budget, they still have YEARS of training! Knowing full well the seriousness of life and death situations they are likely to encounter, can they use the budget excuse for not training at a shooting facility on their own during all these years that made them "senior officers"? Just one of the many excuses i have read, bull all just as easily shot down.Again, were it you or I as civilians in the exact same situation, with right on our side and our only intention being to bring an armed murderer down, would the ones defending the leos be defending us? of course not!! That being said, refer to the fact that the leos have no obligation to protect us. Supreme says so. Easy to look up. "Why didnt you call the police?" And any answer, legitimate or otherwise is useless. Unless you have the funds to spread around there at the "Hall of Revenue".... Sad sad sad.   

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2012, 04:11:48 AM »
It would seem that those who judge or not should hear all the facts . It seems those who charge error are no less knee jerk than those who just want the trial before the hanging. It dosen't take a vet to know a horses back end and it shouldn't take a shooting victim to realize very few can count on range accuracy when a gun is pointed at them nor perfect tatics when life or death decisions are made in seconds .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2012, 01:26:24 PM »
I thought the shooting was darned accurate under the conditions.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Southern Sportsman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #95 on: September 04, 2012, 04:52:36 AM »
Fellas, again with all due respect, at that range, with that many shots, with that much collateral damage, et cetera, add nauseum, how can the word accuracy even come to mind? Not talking perfect shot placement in a crisis moment, im talking cool heads under pressure. Or is that too much to ask for in those individuals "trained" (with our tax dollars no less) to do that very job? Especially the "senior" ones. Perfect tactics? Who describes spray and pray as a legitimate tactic on a crowded street??? If so, perhaps our tax dollars would be better spent elsewhere. Take your pick......... Come on, that wasnt even a super scary situation. They approached from the rear, in daylight, had him outnumbered, had the drop on him AND didnt have to have the mental conversation with themselves about wether or not they would have issues with justification. So really fellas? Really? ??? 

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #96 on: September 04, 2012, 07:16:03 AM »
And when does a policeman get to train for every possible situation ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #97 on: September 04, 2012, 07:26:12 AM »
And when does a policeman get to train for every possible situation ?
No need to train for "every possible situation"
Just teach them that shooting innocent people isn't the right way to take down a perp.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2012, 08:21:16 AM »
All this talk about taking down a bad guy , so how should it have been done ? please list all the complex applications as they occured in this case ? Please also explain what the cops were supposed to do when the bad guy pointed a gun at them. Just maybe the cops were going about it in text book fashion and the bad guy hadn't read the book . I admit I don't know why he turned but nither do ya'll. The cops are not machines they are humans . I won't expect them to walk on water until I can.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2012, 01:30:22 PM »
All this talk about taking down a bad guy , so how should it have been done ? please list all the complex applications as they occured in this case ? Please also explain what the cops were supposed to do when the bad guy pointed a gun at them. Just maybe the cops were going about it in text book fashion and the bad guy hadn't read the book . I admit I don't know why he turned but nither do ya'll. The cops are not machines they are humans . I won't expect them to walk on water until I can.

I have no problem with the cops shooting at someone pointing a gun at them.
My problem with the cops is how they confronted the shooter on a crowded street.
Look at it this way,, what's worse?
(1) LETTING THE SHOOTER GET AWAY
(2) Killing an innocent person.
Face it, these two NYPD's chased this shooter down on a busy street like the door greeter at wal-mart would chase a kid that stole a candy bar!
They should let the guy go until he was at a safer place to try to confront him.
 
 

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2012, 05:20:03 PM »
YAWN!!!!!!!
 
OH! Still second guessing the people who were there!?!?! And it isn't even Monday morning. ::)
 
Hey! Anyone see the one about the old boy putting mutliple rounds, from a .357 Manglem,  in the torso of a BG and he still kept trying?  :o
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #101 on: September 05, 2012, 12:59:27 AM »
All this talk about taking down a bad guy , so how should it have been done ? please list all the complex applications as they occured in this case ? Please also explain what the cops were supposed to do when the bad guy pointed a gun at them. Just maybe the cops were going about it in text book fashion and the bad guy hadn't read the book . I admit I don't know why he turned but nither do ya'll. The cops are not machines they are humans . I won't expect them to walk on water until I can.

I have no problem with the cops shooting at someone pointing a gun at them.
My problem with the cops is how they confronted the shooter on a crowded street.
Look at it this way,, what's worse?
(1) LETTING THE SHOOTER GET AWAY
(2) Killing an innocent person.
Face it, these two NYPD's chased this shooter down on a busy street like the door greeter at wal-mart would chase a kid that stole a candy bar!
They should let the guy go until he was at a safer place to try to confront him.

I heard that Wal-mart dosen't chase until the cost of the theft exceeds a certinan value. I would think murder is a high enough value to go after the guy .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #102 on: September 05, 2012, 08:55:45 AM »
[

I heard that Wal-mart dosen't chase until the cost of the theft exceeds a certinan value. I would think murder is a high enough value to go after the guy .

So which is worse.
(1) Letting a murderer get away
(2)Shooting one innocent person.
 
 

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #103 on: September 05, 2012, 08:58:13 AM »
YAWN!!!!!!!
 
OH! Still second guessing the people who were there!?!?! And it isn't even Monday morning. ::) 
 
:o
When 9 innocent people are wounded by NYPD gun fire, I'd say someone did something wrong.
 

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2012, 10:20:58 PM »
YAWN!!!!!!!
 
OH! Still second guessing the people who were there!?!?! And it isn't even Monday morning. ::) 
 
:o
When 9 innocent people are wounded by NYPD gun fire, I'd say someone did something wrong.

Very Good! Now we  are getting somewhere!

Do you suppose that the killer might be the "someone"? Since he opened the ball game, and chose where and when he did it? :-\
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2012, 04:26:02 AM »
[

Very Good! Now we  are getting somewhere!

Do you suppose that the killer might be the "someone"? Since he opened the ball game, and chose where and when he did it? :-\
Two seperate shootings.
Whole nother ball game.
 

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2012, 04:33:36 AM »
In that case, Kudos to the shooter, he got his man without wounding or killing anyone else. Not so much with NY finest. ::)
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2012, 04:49:01 AM »
In that case, Kudos to the shooter, he got his man without wounding or killing anyone else. Not so much with NY finest. ::)
Well I guess that is, one way to look at it! :o
 
 

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2012, 05:05:46 AM »
[

Very Good! Now we  are getting somewhere!

Do you suppose that the killer might be the "someone"? Since he opened the ball game, and chose where and when he did it? :-\
Two seperate shootings.
Whole nother ball game.

Yup! Two separate shootings, and the killer decided on when & where both times.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2012, 06:12:55 AM »
[
[



Yup! Two separate shootings, and the killer decided on when & where both times.

 
No ,,, the murder victim chose the place he was killed .
The murderer had to go to where his victim was.
Just the NYPD chose where to confront the shooter.
The shooter didn't follow the NYPD ,, they confronted him .
But you don't understand that there are times when you are faced with a "no shoot" situation.
The LEO's job is to do everything possible to not be put in that position.
These two NYPD pushed the confrontation and ended up needlessly shooting 9 innocent people.
If you can't understand that 9 people didn't have to be shot, then you have no idea what a LEO's most important job is.
 
 
 
 
 

Offline BBF

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10042
  • Gender: Male
  • I feel much better now knowing it will get worse.
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2012, 06:34:52 AM »
In that case, Kudos to the shooter, he got his man without wounding or killing anyone else. Not so much with NY finest. ::)
Well I guess that is, one way to look at it! :o

I hope you did recognize the sarcasm in that post.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2012, 06:47:40 AM »
 
 
Well if you look at the stats of hitting the target and hitting innocent people.
Murderer = 1-0
NYPD = 1-10
Looks like the public is safer with a murder on the streets than they are with the NYPD roaming around!
 
BTW-  that is sarcasm

 

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2012, 06:58:34 AM »
.
The shooter didn't follow the NYPD ,, they confronted him .


Well, there's the whole problem with your thesis!

THEY WERE FOLLOWING HIM! HE TURNED AND POINTED A PISTOL AT THEM....Thereby choosing the time & place.

Get it? HE TURNED AROUND and pointed a pistol at them. Again: HE TURNED AROUND.....the cops didn't get to pick the place that HE chose to open the ball game. It's right there in the video fer cryin out loud!

That part is there to see, the other stuff we don't know about... was he in a crowd or not? Was he going to kill again, or not? Could they have lost him in the crowd or not, were there other cops to radio to pick him up..............All speculation.
No speculation to the very real fact that the cops were following him and he turned around and pointed a pistol at them.....NONE!

If you can't get that part, there is no point in debating it with you. You will simply have to assume that you in your infinante wisdom, are right about all things that you weren't there for.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2012, 07:15:39 AM »
.
The shooter didn't follow the NYPD ,, they confronted him .


Well, there's the whole problem with your thesis!

THEY WERE FOLLOWING HIM! HE TURNED AND POINTED A PISTOL AT THEM....Thereby choosing the time & place.

Get it? HE TURNED AROUND and pointed a pistol at them. Again: HE TURNED AROUND.....the cops didn't get to pick the place that HE chose to open the ball game. It's right there in the video fer cryin out loud!

That part is there to see, the other stuff we don't know about... was he in a crowd or not? Was he going to kill again, or not? Could they have lost him in the crowd or not, were there other cops to radio to pick him up..............All speculation.
No speculation to the very real fact that the cops were following him and he turned around and pointed a pistol at them.....NONE!

If you can't get that part, there is no point in debating it with you. You will simply have to assume that you in your infinante wisdom, are right about all things that you weren't there for.

The shooter didn't turn, UNTIL HE WAS CONFRONTED!
Get it?
If the NYPD didn't close on him on a busy street he would have had no reason to turn on them,,, then 9 people would not have been wounded.
 
 
 

Offline rkeltner

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2012, 08:44:58 AM »
i must warily wade into the discussion. having seen the video, it looks like the shooter was committing suicide by cop, or attempting to surrender his weapon! the fact that all the waving around he did with the weapon never resulted in his firing the weapon, suggests that he never put his finger into the trigger guard, since beng shot would naturally result in a tensing that would in all likelihood result in at least 1 wild shot. while i have questions that will likely never be satisfactorily answered, i will jump on the consensus that the officers responded in a way that was much less than ideal. i don't know if nypd gives their people combat training, but i'm reasonably sure that such would improve the outcome of events like this. with an idiot like bloomberg as mayor, i would not be a bit suprised if he downplays the entire concept of training with one's weapon!!!

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2012, 09:04:03 AM »

The shooter didn't turn, UNTIL HE WAS CONFRONTED!
Get it?
If the NYPD didn't close on him on a busy street he would have had no reason to turn on them,,, then 9 people would not have been wounded.

Uh, you can't "confront" someone unless they are facing you...........he turned around......That's the facts.

If he didn't turn around they might have been able to tackle him......speculation......but he did turn around........and pointed a gun at them.

Once again, I'll let you have the final word because I know you can't stand not to have it. But it won't change the facts on the video.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2012, 09:22:24 AM »
CC, have you figured out yet that m-gW knows all about police work, and gun fighting. He's been on this tear for about a week now, and even film footage of the actually events, cannot sway him. He could have handled it much better than anyone else. He can't tell you how he would have handled it, but he could have just the same. I dare say he is more about "cop hating" than anything else, and has an "anti-authority complex". Most likely if the cops were pulling m-gW out of a burning car, he would most likely jump back in so he prove to them that he couldn't be ordered around. He comes off, as fanatically "anti-police". He is the "king of hindsight, arm chair quarterbacks".
 
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Cuts Crooked

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3325
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2012, 09:38:23 AM »
I know Dee, but ya gotta let him have the final word or he gets upset. ;)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline m-g Willy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2012, 09:42:42 AM »
CC, have you figured out yet that m-gW knows all about police work, and gun fighting. He's been on this tear for about a week now, and even film footage of the actually events, cannot sway him. He could have handled it much better than anyone else. He can't tell you how he would have handled it, but he could have just the same. I dare say he is more about "cop hating" than anything else, and has an "anti-authority complex". Most likely if the cops were pulling m-gW out of a burning car, he would most likely jump back in so he prove to them that he couldn't be ordered around. He comes off, as fanatically "anti-police". He is the "king of hindsight, arm chair quarterbacks".
nah!
It's just that I grew out of the little boy worship of the policeman.
You keep your worship of anyone that wears a badge.
You can't see that 9 people were needlessly shot by two Barney Phiffe idiots only shows that you don't care what a cop does.
Because if it wears a badge then they have to be a hero in your eyes.
You keep your little boy beliefs.
I'm done with you.

Offline Dee

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23870
  • Gender: Male
Re: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2012, 09:46:15 AM »
LOL! I prefer to look at what actually happened rather than the barney theory. There seems to be more reality in the video than what you suggest.
With that said, I'll let you get back to your argument.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett