Author Topic: All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.  (Read 5925 times)

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Offline powderman

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NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire  Published August 25, 2012
Associated Press      NEW YORK –  All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.
The veteran patrolmen who opened fire on the suit-wearing gunman, Jeffrey Johnson, had only an instant to react when he whirled and pointed a .45-caliber pistol as they approached him from behind on a busy sidewalk.
Officer Craig Matthews shot seven times. Officer Robert Sinishtaj fired nine times, police said. Neither had ever fired their weapons before on a patrol.
The volley of gunfire felled Johnson in just a few seconds and left nine other people bleeding on the sidewalk.
In the initial chaos Friday, it wasn't clear whether Johnson or the officers were responsible for the trail of wounded, but based on ballistic and other evidence, "it appears that all nine of the victims were struck either by fragments or by bullets fired by police," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters on Saturday at a community event in Harlem.
He reiterated that the officers appeared to have no choice but to shoot Johnson, whose body had 10 bullets wounds in the chest, arms and legs.
"I believe it was handled well," Kelly said.
The officers confronted Johnson as he walked, casually, down the street after gunning down a former co-worker on the sidewalk outside the office they once shared. The shooting happened at 9 a.m., as the neighborhood bustled with people arriving for work.
The gunman and his victim, Steve Ercolino, had a history of workplace squabbles before Johnson was laid off from their company, Hazan Import Corp., a year ago. At one point, the two men had grappled physically in an elevator.
John Koch, the property manager at the office building where the men worked, said security camera footage showed the two pushing and shoving. The tussle ended when Ercolino, a much larger man, pinned Johnson against the wall of the elevator by the throat, Koch said. Ercolino let him go after a few moments, and the two men went their separate ways.
"They didn't like each other," Koch said.
After shooting Ercolino, Johnson, an eccentric T-shirt designer and avid bird-watcher who wore a suit every day, even when photographing hawks in Central Park, walked away as if nothing had happened.
Alerted by a construction worker, officers Matthews and Sinishtaj gave chase as Johnson rounded a corner and walked along Fifth Avenue, in front of the landmark skyscraper.
A security videotape from the scene shows several civilians -- including three sitting on a bench only a few feet away -- scattering as the officers opened fire.
Police have determined that three people were struck by whole bullets -- two of which were removed from victims at the hospital -- and the rest were grazed "by fragments of some sort," Kelly said.
Three people remained hospitalized, all in stable condition, police said.
Both Matthews, 39, and Sinishtaj, 40, joined the nation's largest police department 15 years ago.
Matthews had drawn attention earlier this year by filing a lawsuit against the New York Police Department that accused his superiors of unfairly punishing him for not meeting arrest quotas. A judge threw out the complaint.
There was no immediate response to a message left with the union representing the two officers.
The shooting didn't deter tourists from flocking to the Empire State Building as usual on Saturday.
Patricia Flynn, 57, a retired schoolteacher, visited the building's peak with her elderly mother, who once worked in the skyscraper as a secretary.
"But I didn't tell her what happened," said Flynn, adding that her mother was unaware of Friday's shooting. "And she really enjoyed the view."
A group of 31 tourists from all over France held a meeting Friday night at their nearby hotel to decide whether to cancel their planned Empire State Building visit.
"We were scared, and we thought it was a risk," said Catherine Krukar, 38, a teacher.
But in the end, they went ahead with the visit, she said after descending from the observation tower.
"We know it can happen anywhere, and we wanted to see the Empire State Building," Krukar said. "It was beautiful!"

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/#ixzz24amf71U2
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Offline Doublebass73

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10 hits sounds good but they didn't mention how many shots were fired in total and how many people were hit by pass-throughs.
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Offline Dee

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Anyone willing to criticize these officers has never stood toe to toe in a shootout with no cover. Until they have, they need to be grateful that some are willing to put it all down, and do it. I for one know the feeling of hearing a couple go by, and later thinking "what if" they had been a foot to the left. It is unfortunate that this happened the way it did, but no one died except the one that needed to.
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Offline m-g Willy

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I've had shots fired at me when I was in the open before.
And while these officers did what THEY thought was right at the time....it was all wrong!
The cops job is to SERVE AND PROTECT.
And the only ones they were protecting were themselves.
They didn't worry about bystanders at all.
You don't chase a fleeing driver through town at 100 mph.....You back off.
What do you tell the innocent bystander that was shot?
You going to tell them you were afraid the suspect might have shot them,,,,so you shot them instead?
NOPE,,, this was a bad call on the cops part.
 
 
 
 

Offline hillbill

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well lets wait till all the info is in. i seriously do not think that all injured, were shot by the cops. if that is the case, then the dead shooter was very unlucky and also a incredibly bad shot. i would honestly hope nyc cops were a little bit better trained than that.but ive been wrong before.
 
as far as the cops only protecting their own lives, if they wanted to do that, they could of just huddled behind their cars.

Offline Dee

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As I understand it, the perp threw down on them as they approached, and opened the fight. I suppose they could have ran off, or not showed up at all. They could have also followed him, until he possibly decided to shoot someone else at close range, or create a hostage situation. To compare an armed murderer on foot in a crowd, to a car chase is apples to oranges. They are not the same, or even close. Trying to choreograph a gunfight, in an already out of control situation, is like trying to direct a tornado.
I won't arm chair quarterback someone in a life and death situation, until all the facts are in. I don't think anyone can say what they would have done, unless there. All else is pure speculation.
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Offline twoshooter

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I would not fault the officers for shooting. I would probably fault the police dept for what I will bet is a very sparse budget for practice ammo and range time. The fact that both officers were 15 year veterans and had never fired their weapons in the line of duty belies the picture we get of how dangerous the streets are supposedly. I also think that perhaps they should do some introspection on the penetration factor here. They do not need pass through, they are not going to be following a blood trail, if he had body armor on he would have gotten off several shots any way, but since he had on a suit, Gold Dots from a 380 would have served just as well. I know there are going to be people that will try to  tell me that the police need to be prepared for guys high on coke and meth and with armor, and yadda yadda. AHHH...... NO. When I go into the woods looking for deer I do not need ammo designed just in case I meet a cape buffalo or large bear, and I do not carry any. There is always some chance  greater than zero I might need the heavy stuff, but it is not sufficient for me to carry it. SWAT or officers in special units or circumstances maybe, regular officers could have it available, but perhaps not as standard carry ammo.
AND..... I would see that they had the ammo and range time to be able to hit a B29 target at 10 yards at night during a rain storm while standing on one foot eating pizza while sending a text message. ;) 8)
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Offline hillbill

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no fualt to the officers involved, but pass thrus are a fact of life.yu dont know from one minute or season to the next if you will engage a paper thin crak head wearing a t shirt or a 300 lber wearing a parka and several heavy sweatshirts. so really guys? dont second guess them on their caliber or ammo choice! some one once said "always carry enuf gun" guess they did?

Offline Brett

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"Officer Craig Matthews shot seven times. Officer Robert Sinishtaj fired nine times, police said. Neither had ever fired their weapons before on a patrol."

10 hits out of 16 shots... that's better than 60%.  What happened to double tap... asses... reengage?  Surely it did not take 10 hits to incapacitate the perp.     
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Offline Dee

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They'll be scrutinized by piers, criticized by liberals, demonized by cop haters, and second guessed by "would be gunfighters" that have not a clue of what they talk about. Their decisions had to be made in milli-seconds. WOW!
I say: Good job guys for surviving a very bad, and deadly situation. This thing started out bad, and ended a little better.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline hillbill

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i know this is kind of a one off event, but what if a reasonably well trained officer jumped out of his car with a simple scope sighted bolt action rifle in say 223 and quickly put one round to the head of a perp that was seen shooting a lot of people?or maybe a round to one of the big joints like shoulder or hip?

Offline Cuts Crooked

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i know this is kind of a one off event, but what if a reasonably well trained officer jumped out of his car with a simple scope sighted bolt action rifle in say 223 and quickly put one round to the head of a perp that was seen shooting a lot of people?or maybe a round to one of the big joints like shoulder or hip?

Sure thing! Just like Lon Horiuchi? We all remember HIS fantastic shooting under pressure don't we? And he was one of the best according to testimony. ::)
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Offline Dee

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What if the perp didn't decide to head shoot his ex-boss, and what if he hadn't decided to start a gun fight in a crowd when he saw the police, and what if he had decided to be a missionary in Uganda instead of a murderer in a crowd, where EVERYONE was on foot, where there wasn't a squad car with an officer in it carrying a counter sniper rifle? ::)
Better still, why not get rid of the police entirely, and let the United States Military patrol the streets with M4s, and maybe a couple of Barretts. I'd love to see military personnel doing this, and then I wouldn't have to imagine what it would be like to live in a communist block country, I could experience it for myself.
Here's another option. Instead of blaming the police, or second guessing a couple of'em being shot at. Why not be responsible for "your own protection", and stopping the perp yourself. Oh! Wait! I forgot. New York City has disarmed everyone, because their too civilized for such a thing to happen. :o ::)
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Offline yellowtail3

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Sure thing! Just like Lon Horiuchi? We all remember HIS fantastic shooting under pressure don't we? And he was one of the best according to testimony. ::)
HOriuchi? He did alright, by federal standards... he killed some people, and got away with it. I'd be in prison had I done that.


On this Charlie Foxtrot in NYC... I don't believe it. It's citizens with guns that are a danger to bystanders, not Professional Law Enforcement types... right?
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Dee

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Great point. Give the citizens the guns, and see how they do. Then they can criticize each other. That is if they even notice something is amiss. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Conan The Librarian

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This is interesting because of the location. There are literally thousands of people on the sidewalks in that area, and any shooting at all is going to hit someone. I assume the police know this and they have a policy and training that empowers police to shoot in a situation like this. There has to be the assumption that police gunfire will necessarily incur some bystander casualties on the busy sidewalks of Manhattan, and that the probable number of casualties is acceptible.

Offline Dee

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In Law Enforcement we never thought that any casualties were acceptable "if preventable". What we have here is a man that killed an "unarmed man" and walked off into a crowd. At the moment, no one knew why he killed the "unarmed man". Just that he did. Do your let him just walk away, and "hope" that he doesn't decide to kill some more "unarmed folks"? Or do you confront him?
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Dee, I'm not second guessing the cops. It just occurred to me that, after having spent significant time in that busy area, gunfire is almost certain to hit someone. The cops certainly know this, and must have some training and policy related to it. It's quite a dilemma that most law enforcement agencies don't have to deal with to the same degree.

Offline Dee

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CTL, the accuracy level in a shootout goes down almost 65% due to stress, and other contributors. As I said earlier. This was a really bad situation that the perp put himself, and everyone around him in. He is the person responsible for all the injuries. HE DECIDED to shoot it out with police. Would you have let him shoot at you in a crowded area, and not respond with your own weapon? Or would you have let him continue to shoot at you, because you were afraid you might miss and hit someone else?
We live in a free society, and in that society, there are some dangerous folks, that hurt innocents, or cause situations that end in the injury to innocents. The only way to prevent this, is to do away with the "free society", and "declare permanent martial law. And then it will still happen.
To sit down, and try and prepare for "EVERY UNFORESEEN TRAGADY" is an unreasonable, and impossible task. It can never be done.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Dee, I'm not second guessing the cops. It just occurred to me that, after having spent significant time in that busy area, gunfire is almost certain to hit someone. The cops certainly know this, and must have some training and policy related to it.
I believe their policy is, don't worry, we'll not be held to the same standard as a citizen in like situation.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Conan The Librarian

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It could be argued that new york city does have a permanent martial law. It many ways it really does. This is a function of needing to maintain order in a place with a highly concentrated population. You see it in hong kong too.




Offline Dee

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No argument here with that theory CTL. Ya think it's workin?
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Conan The Librarian

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It seems to work for them, but its like another planet when you're used to living freer than they do there.

Offline Southern Sportsman

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Sounds like yellowtail nailed it.  ;)

Offline Southern Sportsman

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Also, "Arrest Quota's"? So, even if there isnt a crime, were dang sure gonna come up with something mentality is about the size of the situation there too. Welcome to the hall of revenue. Again, wasnt there, but obvious protocalls were ignored. Before you say it, yes, I am a combat veteran too, and I know about the issue of using civilians as a sheild. The # of shots says ALOT!! Defend the leos at any cost if you will, but this is yet another example of another outrageous double standard that exists here at home from coast to coast. We all know the leos are the only ones who can be trusted to properly use firearms..... :o  I would be imprisoned for life, or put to death if a similiar situation occured at my backyard barbecue. Unless of course I had the $ to spread around the system. They reacted poorly, many innocents were injured, and while the perp did of course need to be put down, the term overkill is very applicable in this instance. Who out there can honestly make a case for unloading that many rounds in such a crowded area? For those of you like me who have been in an exchange, how many of your rounds connected before your target was obviously pacified? Ill bet you my favorite gun it wasnt 10!!!!! ::) 

Offline Southern Sportsman

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Last thing, as far as the not showing up at all, let us not forget that our own supreme court has ruled that the police are under no obligation to protect us. Sounds retarded, doesent it. Sad, but true though. Look it up. Dont want ANY of yall to take my word for it. Apply that little nugget to whether or not "we the people" should have the right to carry.  ;)   

Offline m-g Willy

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. Do your let him just walk away, and "hope" that he doesn't decide to kill some more "unarmed folks"? Or do you confront him?

So instead of letting him MAYBE shoot some unarmed folks....You shoot them first?
I wasn't there but knowing the size of crowds on the streets in NYC, letting a shot loose on the sidewalk is sorta like throwing a gernade onto a crowed bus in hopes of taking out the one gun man!

Offline BBF

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I told my wife if such mayhem breaks out near her anywhere......run, run, run in the opposite direction and don't stop....unless somebody here has better advice.
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             How about  " TAKE COVER" or "GET DOWN" ;)
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Offline Dee

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. Do your let him just walk away, and "hope" that he doesn't decide to kill some more "unarmed folks"? Or do you confront him?

So instead of letting him MAYBE shoot some unarmed folks....You shoot them first?
I wasn't there but knowing the size of crowds on the streets in NYC, letting a shot loose on the sidewalk is sorta like throwing a gernade onto a crowed bus in hopes of taking out the one gun man!

So tell us. What would YOU have done, keeping in mind, no one was chasing anyone, and that the perp did not wish to talk to the officers but instead wanted to shoot them.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline m-g Willy

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So tell us. What would YOU have done, keeping in mind, no one was chasing anyone, and that the perp did not wish to talk to the officers but instead wanted to shoot them.

Hard to say for sure since I wasn't there.
But WHAT I WOULDN'T DO is put the perp between me and innocent bystanders.
If the perp were walking away from me I think maybe a tackle would have worked out better.
Or at least try to flank him so as to have him between you and a building.
Or let him walk away !
I would rather 10 guilty people get away scott free, than have one innocent person die.