All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.

[Dee]

 
So tell us. What would YOU have done, keeping in mind, no one was chasing anyone, and that the perp did not wish to talk to the officers but instead wanted to shoot them.

Hard to say for sure since I wasn't there.

Right there it is. None of us were there. But you and others are sure critical of those that were there. Giving the benefit of the doubt to people risking their lives for others seems very difficult to some. The shooting is less than a week old, and everyone is already second guessing two men whom were there, and expected to DO SOMETHING. All the facts are not in, and the investigation is in it's infancy, and folks who claim to know better, are doing what they themselves would never want done to them. JUDGING SOMEONE WITHOUT THE FACTS. You really don't know what was happening, what they saw, what they felt, what the perp was doing when the shooting started. What could have been done. What couldn't have been done. What there was time to do, and what there wasn't time to do. You just judge like the rest, without as you say: being there.
With that being said, I am done with this thread. It's a sad commentary to men whom were not only there, but trying to make a difference while everyone else just watched.

[m-g Willy]

It's a sad commentary to men whom were not only there, but trying to make a difference while everyone else just watched.

What's sad is you think these two who were paid to do a job did a good thing .
And if they would have risked their own lives by trying to take the perp down without a shot being fired then I would call themj heros.
But they didn't care about any bystanders when they opened fire.
And--- yes---anytime cops shoot 9 innocent people I think we can question their tactics.

[Dee]

Well, I will break my word here, as NEW FACTS are coming out on the entire matter. Only three bystanders were hit by bullets, the other six bystanders (THAT'S SIX), were hit by bullet fragments. Hardly the same. To say that they didn't care about the bystanders is a ludacris statement that carries absolutely no merit at all. Your determination to be judgmentally right on "something you know almost nothing about", save news reports, says much in it's self.
This truly is a waste of time, and I regret getting involved in the discussion in the first place. Now I'm done.

[m-g Willy]

. Only three bystanders were hit by bullets, the other six bystanders (THAT'S SIX), were hit by bullet fragments. in the first place. Now I'm done.

ONLY THREE!
Well then sorry about saying anything.
If only three innocent people were shot by the cops then that's quite alright.
BTW-What is the number of innocent people that is allowable for a cop to shoot before we start questioning him about it?

[finisher]

"Officer Craig Matthews shot seven times. Officer Robert Sinishtaj fired nine times, police said. Neither had ever fired their weapons before on a patrol."

10 hits out of 16 shots... that's better than 60%.  What happened to double tap... asses... reengage?  Surely it did not take 10 hits to incapacitate the perp.     

***************
It's called "ooops, I spazzed" because of the "pucker (of the sphincter)" factor [size=78%]. [/size]Hey, it happens and some handle it better than others. No way, to really predict unless you've been shot at before.

[finisher]

i know this is kind of a one off event, but what if a reasonably well trained officer jumped out of his car with a simple scope sighted bolt action rifle in say 223 and quickly put one round to the head of a perp that was seen shooting a lot of people?or maybe a round to one of the big joints like shoulder or hip?

Sure thing! Just like Lon Horiuchi? We all remember HIS fantastic shooting under pressure don't we? And he was one of the best according to testimony.

************
Pardon my ignorance Cuts, but is this Horiuchi guy the Ruby Ridge sharp shooter by any chance. Just taking a guess?

[finisher]

It could be argued that new york city does have a permanent martial law. It many ways it really does. This is a function of needing to maintain order in a place with a highly concentrated population. You see it in hong kong too.

*******
And in LA (Los Angeles). I don't know... I grew up pretty used to hearing gun fire at least two or three times a week. I'm not going to condemn the NY cops simply because action needed to be taken and they took it.


I know, quite well, the "piss your pants "sound of a bullet hissing past my ear and I know that if that bullet was meant for me, there'll likely be more coming. Further more, if I know where they're coming from, I am surely going to try to drill the orc that's throwing them at me BECAUSE I WANT TO LIVE!!!!


The real questions that should be pondered are not about the right or wrong of what happened at the instant people started throwing down, but maybe, instead what was the approach method used. And like Dee said, we were not there and cannot give an informed assessment of the tactical situation.


Dee is absolutely correct in saying that accuracy goes down significantly in those situations for most people (did these cops have any military combat experience or grow up on some battleground for a neighborhood?). What could be down to reduce this "spaz and pucker (of the sphincter)" factor.


"Spray and pray" and double tap to the head are two completely different frames of mind.

[hunt-m-up]

Just curious how much range time the average LEO gets outside of qualifying?  I'm not talking about the ones here on GBO. I'm talking about the others who don't have a true love of firearms, and there are a lot of them out there. I understand the pucker factor is highly unpredictable, but proficiency with one's choice of sidearm would seem to go a long way towards making the situation more in the good guys favor.

[Southern Sportsman]

Interesting how valid points from other experienced individuals are looked over and the halfway thought out ones keep being repeated....... How many shots in a crowded intersection? How many impacts? You couldnt tell he was incapacitated by when? And ask those individuals in the "new facts" whether they feel better because they only caught part of a bullet instead of a whole one..... Overreaction plain and simple. Fairly straightforward by ALL ACCOUNTS. He was a static target!! Not running. And they still had to put what can only be described as a shower of gunfire through the area!? Again, they are the only ones who can be trusted with firearms. Just ask'em! READY.....FIIIIRE!!!!!!!...aim....................

[Southern Sportsman]

Please dont think I am disrespectfull of LEOS. Just disrespectfull of a system that doesent respect its veterans and citizens. All of us know that there is a huge discrepancy between John Q Citizen in court dealing with charges concerning a FULLY JUSTIFIABLE self defense act, and leos unloading on a target. Fairly common scenario accross this nation that we have all witnessed whether or not we wanna "cop" to it!    BECAUSE it was ruled that leos have no obligation to protect us, it seems morbidly funny that the first question a prosecuting attorney asks is "Did you", or "Why didnt you call the police?".... Could it be that there are those who are factually better at handling that situation that the quote unquote professionials? Great way to cinch your conviction. Better that than my kid dead, or wife raped. Super funny how what is termed a justifiabl reason for the use of deadly force is different depending on who is in danger, isnt it?

[nw_hunter]

I see where it's been determined, the LEO's were using hollow point bullets. The department switched to them as well as other law enforcement agencies, including the FBI and other Federal agencies.The objective was to prevent bullets passing through and striking bystanders.Problem is with hollow points......They fragment bad if they miss the soft target and strike hard objects like pavement , trees, light poles or others.Two of these people were hit by full bullets, but the rest by fragments.

If the officers truly thought the guy was going for his gun, then what were they to do? If they were not in immediate danger and knew so, then they were irresponsible.Not a perfect world we live in, and sometimes things don't go as planned. Only one innocent poor soul lost their life, and it was at the hands of the perpetrator of this tragedy.

[Dixie Dude]

NYC also uses 9mm's for their carry.  They have not adapted 40s&w because they determined they were a little two powerful in crowds, yet carry high capacity 9mm's.  If they carried lower capacity, would 5-6 rounds have taken him down with fewer bystander hits?  Only time they really need high capacity is with an honest shoot out with someone with high capacity mags, which is rare. 

[finisher]

Just curious how much range time the average LEO gets outside of qualifying?  I'm not talking about the ones here on GBO. I'm talking about the others who don't have a true love of firearms, and there are a lot of them out there. I understand the pucker factor is highly unpredictable, but proficiency with one's choice of sidearm would seem to go a long way towards making the situation more in the good guys favor.

******************
I absolutely agree that better proficiency in firearms handling could very well have resulted in a better outcome in this situation. 


I don't recall, did the report say that the suspect actually drew down on the cops? Or was it a "reached for a gun still in his pants "kind of deal? If this was the case, I would say absolutely "spaz" and overreaction. Perhaps the result of coffee and sugar withdrawl ?


I've mentioned in other posts that training costs budget money in the form of time, instructors, and supplies. Multiply those costs by a police force of thousands and watch your budget go out the window. It's the sad reality of it.

[Conan The Librarian]

Dee:
 
The answer is obvious: Apparently Superman and The Cavalry had their schedules mixed up, as neither one appeared to save the day at the critical moment. It happens to the best of them. Batman, though more reliable, is strictly a night hero, and was not available at that time. This was not a Nazi problem, so it wasn't on Captain America's radar screen.  You know how it goes with super heroes.
 
As to what I would have done? Get out of there like a scalded dog, possibly moving so fast as to leave a 500 yard poop streak in the process.

[SHOOTALL]

This is a very sad story. The cops most likely did protect themselves (I would have ) I guess from looking at the gun control freaks some would say they should have commited suicide by bad guy. I wonder if the bad guy had killed the cops would he have gone on or decided to kill every one he could ? Who knows. In situations like this should the police not be supported ? there are times they screw up but not everytime.

[Cuts Crooked]

One thing I find hilarious in this thread is the ones finding fault are some  of the same ones who were crying about the DHS buying so much ammo to practice with!

[Cuts Crooked]

************
Pardon my ignorance Cuts, but is this Horiuchi guy the Ruby Ridge sharp shooter by any chance. Just taking a guess?

That would be the one!

[m-g Willy]

DEE you are correct. Our armchair doc Holidays here are the same brain deads that wonder why the police don't shoot the gun out of their hands. Just like their true life heroes in the old westerns.

I guess I must be one of those brain dead people you are talking about.
Because I wouldn't have started a shoot out on a busy NY sidewalk.
But three innocent people wouldn't have been shot by me either.
And six others wouldn't have been hit by bullet fragments either.
If it were your family walking down the sidewalk would you want those cops opening up on the perp with them in the line of fire,,,or would you perfer the leo's to let the perp walk to a better place to engage with him?
Or just let him walk away and keep your family safe?
I think some of you people that think that a cop can do no wrong would cheer for a cop that kills a hostage taker by shooting through the hostage to get him!
Get over your lil boy hero worship just because someone wears a badge!
The differance between these two cops and real heros are these two didn't care about anyone but themselfs.
And compared to real heros= The secret service that jumped in front of the gun to protect Reagen.
Guns were drawn, but they didn't fire them into a crowd.
Those secret service agents are what real heros are.
 
 
 
 

[m-g Willy]

Ah they didn't start the gunfight! I guess poor reading comprehension could be a sign of brain damage. So ya ever been shot at or shot anyone?

Yes the secret service in the case of Reagn shooting didn't start the shooting.
But they STILL  acted heroicly by protecting everyone they could without firing a shot.
You still failed to answer if you think these two NYPD did the right thing if your family was walking in the line of fire.
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

With the Regan shooting the guy was at arms length . The agents next to him could grab him faster than drawing a weapon. Anyone who has even a small amount of personal protection training or VIP protection will tell you the gun is not always the ansewer. Better to stop the threat fast by disabling his ablity to harm . If that means sticking a finger between the hammer and fireing pin then do it first.
If all the energy that has been used to lynch these to cops and others that get second guessed was put to finding a way to up grade how mental unstable people are found and helped it would do more to stopping shootings like this. I would bet in the end this guy will be found to have a mental problem and people knew about it.

[Shu]

Secret Service protection detail is alot different than a street cop. Secret Service is supposed to protect a hich value target, others will engage an active shooter. There is no comparison between the two.
 
We hold LEOS to a higher shooting standard than our US Military, why? Look at the shots fired per hit ratios and you will be very suprised.
 
Having been in the military, and a LEO I have been shot at and returned fire in both situations. I think there are way to many arm chair/keyboard commandoes second guessing what it is like being in a gun fight. Until you have been over the side or engaged a person with a gun you should not speculate to loudly.
 
Not many LEOS use their firearms on patrol, we should be very thankful for that. We should be thankful there are people who answer the call to serve either in law enforcement or the military. We can always second guess everything they do.
 
Until you have engaged someone with a gun with murderous intent in their heart, remember how fortunate you are not to be the one who was there.
 
After the shooting is over there is a great sigh of relief, then you have to live with the life you have taken. Some can deal with it others can't. You can't really describe it to anyone becuase they just will never understand.

[freetrapper]

Question you are in a city where it is leagle (spl) for you to carry. A man pulls a gun on you , you pull your gun shoot him and 9 bystanders now what happen to you??

[m-g Willy]

. Until you have been over the side or engaged a person with a gun you should not speculate to loudly.
 

Well if that's the case I guess I can speculate as loud as I want!
Just because someone doesn't shout to the world that he was in the service and a LEO for a number of years in his life doesn't mean he hasn't been around the block a few times.
BTW- Whenever someone starts telling others (on a computer) that he did "this" and had to live through "that"
and acting like only HE knows what it is like to stare death in the face  because he is the hero type.
I  write him off as just another dreamer trying to make himself feel as if his nothing life isn't as pathetic as it must be.
Anyone that can't see that these two NYPD did everything wrong when it comes to taking an armed man down (from behind) in a crowed area couldn't care less about anyone other then themself, or just to stupid to know better.
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

The one thing wrong with your argument is the bad guy turned and fired at which point it was no longer a take down from the rear but a face to face shoot out. But hey that would make it hard to monday morning qb

[Southern Sportsman]

And yet yall still shy away from addressing all of the BLATANT factual mistakes of the officers..........Nuff said. Continue to tell yourselves whatever makes you comfy in your beds.......Untill of course your on the other end of it, and then we will see how fast you change your tune!!  
 

[SHOOTALL]

feel free to list what they did wrong .
It should be interesting to read , I admit they did things different than maybe they could have done but it's hard to remember you came to drain the swamp when you are azz deep in gators ............

[m-g Willy]

The one thing wrong with your argument is the bad guy turned and fired at which point it was no longer a take down from the rear but a face to face shoot out. But hey that would make it hard to monday morning qb

"BAD GUY TURNED AND FIRED "
"hard to monday morning qb"
--------
Yes, and it looks like it is even harder to monday morning QB when you don't even know what happened.
Or you just ( make things up ) to back your statements.
Because according to Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly there were - 0 - shots fired by the shooter after killing his victim.
The ONLY shots the two NYPD heard were their own as they fired from a few feet away .
Sorry to shoot down your hero worship of anyone who wears a badge.
But when you have to make up a lie to defend them ,it's time to look for a new hero.
 
 
 
 

[Cuts Crooked]

Well Golly folks! Surely we can all see that when the perp turned his gun on the cops, one should have forced him to shoot at him until he was out of ammo. Then the other could have circled around behind behind him, while he was distracted, and forced him to surrender with the use of very harsh language!

[SHOOTALL]

I don't consider them heros , what I see them as is two cops chasing a guy who had shot people . They saw him point a gun in their diredtion and knew his track record. They reacted nothing more nothing less. Now consider when a cop (in many places ) pulls his gun it is to be for self defense or defense of others. That was true here. Most times they are suspened or taken off duty. Most places the cop shooting is not supported by the police , in other words they are on their own . So lets look at it from that stand point , would a compentent person have defended themselves in the same situation ? I would have. And it seems many more would have from the post. Why do some people expect cops to have super human qualities ? maybe they watch too much Hollywood ? Putting on a uniform dosen't make them a hero it makes them a target in many cases. 

[m-g Willy]

I'm not faulting the two NYPD for shooting,,,I'm saying they needlessly put everyone in danger by their tactics.
You don't throw a hand grenade into a room full of hostages to take out the lone gunman holding them hostage.