Author Topic: Traction- the message is getting some..............  (Read 1618 times)

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Offline crustylicious

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Traction- the message is getting some..............
« on: August 27, 2012, 06:11:12 PM »
Majority in U.S. say rich pay too little in taxes
 
                   Study: Income gap between well-off and less wealthy bad for the country
WASHINGTON — As the income gap between rich and poor widens, a majority of Americans say the growing divide is bad for the country and believe that wealthy people are not paying enough in taxes, according to a new survey.     The poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center points to a particular challenge for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, whose party's policies are viewed by a wide majority as favoring the rich over the middle class and poor.
The poll found that many Americans believe rich people to be intelligent and hard-working but also greedy and less honest than the average American. Nearly six in 10, or 58 percent, say the rich don't pay enough intaxes while 26 percent believe the rich pay their fair share and 8 percent say they pay too much.
Even among those who describe themselves as "upper class" or "upper middle class," more than half — 52 percent — said upper-income Americans don't pay enough in taxes; only 10 percent said they paid too much. This upper tier was more likely to say they are more financially secure now than they were 10 years ago — 62 percent, compared to 44 percent for those who identified themselves as middle class and 29 percent for the lower class. They are less likely to report problems in paying rents or mortgages, losing a job, paying for medical care or other bills and cutting back on household expenses.
The findings come at the start of this week's Republican National Convention and as both Romney and President Barack Obama seek to appeal to a broad swath of financially struggling voters who identify themselves as middle class. Romney supports an extension of Bush-era tax cuts for everyone including the wealthiest 2 percent, and says his policies will benefit the middle class by boosting the economy and creating jobs.
"The fact that Romney may be viewed as wealthy doesn't necessarily pose problems for his candidacy," said Kim Parker, associate director of Pew Social & Demographic Trends, noting that people see the wealthy as having both positive and negative attributes. "The challenge for Romney lies more in the fact that large majorities say if he is elected president, his policies would likely benefit the wealthy."
The results reinforce a tide of recent economic data showing a widening economic divide. America's middle class has been shrinking in the stagnant economy, and poverty is now approaching 1960s-level highs, while wealth concentrates at the top of the economic ladder. A separate Pew survey earlier this year found that tensions between the rich and poor were increasing and were at their most intense level in nearly a quarter-century.
In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning more than $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.
According to the latest findings, about 63 percent of Americans say the GOP favors the rich over the middle class and poor, and 71 percent say Romney's election would be good for wealthy people. A smaller percentage, 20 percent, says the same about the Democratic Party. More Americans — 60 percent — say if Obama is re-elected his policies will benefit the poor, while half say they'll help the middle class and 37 percent say they'll boost the wealthy.
"The Great Recession was not an equal opportunity disemployer," said Sheldon Danziger, a public policy professor at the University of Michigan. He describes the gap between rich and poor as the widest in decades. "College graduates, whites and middle-aged workers had fewer and shorter layoffs than high school graduates, blacks, Hispanics and younger workers. And only a small percentage of the rich work in the hardest-hit industries, like construction and manufacturing."
About 65 percent of Americans say the gap between rich and poor has gotten wider in the past decade, while 20 percent believe it has stayed the same and 7 percent say the gap has gotten smaller. Separately, 57 percent say a widening income gap is a bad thing for society; just 3 percent say it is a good thing.
Asked to estimate how much a family of four would need to earn to be considered wealthy in their area, the median amount given by survey respondents was $150,000. For middle class, the median amount was $70,000.
Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hard-working (42 percent) than average Americans. But the rich are also seen as more likely to be greedy (55 percent). Thirty-four percent of those surveyed say the rich are less likely to be honest than the average person; just 12 percent say the rich are more likely to be honest.
The Pew survey involved telephone interviews with 2,508 adults conducted from July 16 to 26. It has a margin of error of 2.8 percentage points.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48802418/ns/business-personal_finance/
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 06:24:27 PM »
Only traction with with dumb people who dont take 30 seconds to do a google search.
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 09:47:45 PM »
   The majority of the brain-dead...I doubt that many are that jealous of what the other guy has earned.
      The brain-dead seem to realize the govt is already robbing too much.of what  everybody earns.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline magooch

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2012, 04:24:08 AM »
Class envy--that's the ticket; it wins every time.  We should all strive to be losers.
Swingem

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2012, 05:17:22 AM »
50% of the wage earners in this country dont pay any federal income tax. It just happens to be the complete reverse of what your saying. So many people are exempt from paying a dime, that the dumb people think that those that actually pay tax and contribute to the federal tax revenue need to, well just pay more. The free loaders are killing this country and its people like you that are driving us deeper into debt with your fake political arguments and demonic math.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2012, 06:36:03 AM »
Your right obama's Trickle Down economic theoary does not work. Obamas economic plan is the ultimate in Trickle Down. We give more and more of our money in the form of taxes to the highest entity on the country, the government and everyone is suppose to see the jobs and the economy grow from the governments trickle down spending......
 

Avg unemployment rate under the Bush years: 5.27%
Avg unemployment rate under the Obama years: 9.36%
 
National debt when Bush left office: $9T
National debt now under Obama: $16T
 
People on Food Stamps at the end of Bush term: 23.5m
People on food stamps now under obama:39.5m
 
Its sure working well Crusty! What a joke. Look how our debt has sky rocketed and jobs evaporated under the obama plan you and TM support. It has produced the worst economic situation in modern history. Obama trickle down government tax and spend programs are a total failure.
 
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
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Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2012, 07:20:22 AM »
While I admire your loyal adherence to the republican mantra, the facts are otherwise.
 
Today's income tax rates are strikingly low relative to the  rates of the past century, especially for rich people.  For most  of the century, including some boom times, top-bracket income tax rates were  much higher than they are today.

 
Contrary to what Republicans would have you believe, super-high tax  rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people  lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate  was over 90%--and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.

 
Super-low tax rates on rich people also appear to be correlated with  unsustainable sugar highs in the economy--brief, enjoyable booms followed by  protracted busts. They also appear to be correlated with very high  inequality. (For example, see the 1920s and now).
 
Periods of very low tax rates have been followed by periods with  very high tax rates, and vice versa. So history suggests that tax rates  will soon start going up.
 
My friend, I do concur with this:
 
Today's government spending levels are indeed too high, at least  relative to the average level of tax revenue the government has generated over  the past 60 years. Unless Americans are willing to radically increase  the amount of taxes they pay relative to GDP, government spending must be  cut.
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates
 


 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline ironglow

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 07:28:42 AM »
C4,,,ever try to get blood from a stone, or milk a steer?...you want trouble on the streets than try tap the hungry underclass.
 
Trickle down economics is code double speak for offshoring economics and tax cuts..
.
.
...TM7
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
   You conspiracy types are too wrapped up in "code" talk.  That's in your imagination..  The "code talkers" were some native Americans who were very helpful to the cause during WW2.  That's about as far as it goes..unless the lefties use some kind of code talk; which of course, I would have no experience with.
 
  Top down has proven the best way to improve an economy.. "A rising tide, raises all boats"
 
    Sure as +%$@!^&!  trying to turn women against men, youth against adult, poor against rich, black against white, homosexual against normal, vegans against omnivores and the liberal coasts against the heartland....isn't going to improve the economy even a bit.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2012, 08:34:59 AM »
C4,,,ever try to get blood from a stone, or milk a steer?...you want trouble on the streets than try tap the hungry underclass.
 
Trickle down economics is code double speak for offshoring economics and tax cuts..
.
.
...TM7

So tell us, whats 8.3% unemployment and $16t in debt code for? Obamanomics dont work TM. Thats what the real "code" is. Trickle down government spending dont work.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
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Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 06:24:57 PM »
Read em and weep supply siders!
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2012/08/01/11998/the-failure-of-supply-side-economics/
Investment growth was weaker under supply-side policies
Productivity growth was weaker under supply-side policies
Overall economic growth was weaker under supply-side policies
Employment growth was weaker under supply-side policies
Income growth for middle-class households was lackluster under supply-side policies
Hourly earnings were flat or declined under supply-side policies
Our nation’s fiscal health deteriorated under supply-side policies
Conclusion
Did the supply side policies of Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush work? Did they boost investment, spur growth, and cause prosperity to trickle down? The data says no. And when President Clinton raised taxes in 1993, did the economy suffer a slowdown, as was predicted by those who believe in supply-side economics? Again, the data says no.
This data does not mean that higher taxes are always better and lower taxes are always worse for the economy. That would be making the same mistake that many supply-siders make, but in reverse. Indeed, there were obviously other forces at work in our economy besides tax policies over this 30-year period. But it does mean that lower taxes aren’t always the answer, aren’t a magical economic cure, and that higher taxes can coexist with, and perhaps even aid, a strong economy.
 
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline DDZ

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 11:57:38 PM »
Another the rich don't pay enough taxes thread. The same people that rail against the rich not paying their fair share never mention all the wasteful spending done by our elected Marxists in the name of aiding the economy. Its always about the government not stealing enough money from the people that produce. Like the government can do better spending our money. They have proven over and over they can't. Its insanity to think we need to give government more.
The OP might as well take this song and dance elsewhere, because no one here will ever be convinced that more money sucked out of the rich will make any difference at all.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 01:40:31 AM »
Quote
For those people who can see beyond the deluge of slick campaign advertisements, it should be clear enough that the Republican Party’s claim to support “small government” is a fraud. That claim is only an attractive mask, designed to disguise a party of privilege.

The above is a fact, pure and simple. I challange anyone to prove otherwise regarding the small government claim!

Every single Republican administration in my lifetime has increased the size, power, and scope of government! And every single candidate who who is willing to make an honest effort to change that has been rejected by the right. Paul is only the most recent example!

I have been a life long republican, hoping against hope that over time the party would fulfill it's promise to decrease government intrusion into freedom, believing that whole "little bit at a time" line. I now see that it just so much Bovine Excrement! There is no essential difference between the republicans and democrats, other than the right being the bigger war mongers.

Hope & Change......the lefts most recent battle cry, was in reality what I expected from the republicans, I didn't get either and have no hope that they will ever change. The new rule changes made at the convention is proof that they have no intent to let people like me have a voice in the party, they will brook no dissent, and will squash anyone who tries!
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

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Offline magooch

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 03:50:47 AM »
You see no difference between the Dumycrat and Republican Parties?  When was the last time you had your eyes checked?
Swingem

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 05:53:49 AM »
You see no difference between the Dumycrat and Republican Parties?  When was the last time you had your eyes checked?

Yesterday at the republican convention. ::)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline rio grande

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 06:55:12 AM »
It's sad we are often more concerned with what's in our wallets than what's in our hearts.

I've no problem with taxes, so long as the gov't didn't waste the money or use it for wrong-doing. I'd even pay more, or accept cuts in my social security (which I doubt I'll ever get anyway) to help others and pay down the national debt.
But let's not forget the rich and the Corporations should help as much as possible too.
We're all in this together, you know.

"Greed"  Erich von Stroheim  1924
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjSpPgJAoA


Offline DDZ

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 12:38:21 PM »
It's sad we are often more concerned with what's in our wallets than what's in our hearts.

I've no problem with taxes, so long as the gov't didn't waste the money or use it for wrong-doing. I'd even pay more, or accept cuts in my social security (which I doubt I'll ever get anyway) to help others and pay down the national debt.
But let's not forget the rich and the Corporations should help as much as possible too.
We're all in this together, you know.

"Greed"  Erich von Stroheim  1924
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjSpPgJAoA

Yes Rio giving does come from the heart, but I believe you are talking about giving to a government who actually takes, with a threat behind it, then government spending it as they see fit. Real giving from the heart comes from people actually giving to other people. People tend to be more responsible, and thankful if money is given to them from other people or from the community. On the other hand people tend to think they are entitled to what the government gives them. Giving the government more of our tax dollars will not help one iota, it will only make things worse. You can bet the ranch on that! Giving from the heart, and taxes shouldn't even be used in the same sentence.
If you want to help someone, give money to local organizations that are built for helping people. Give to a church, that gives the money wisely. Give to a charity. Doing these things is what really helps people, not giving it to a Marxist government that uses it for buying votes. The problem is that Gov. takes a large portion of what people have, so what they can freely give is limited.
 For your information the top 20% already do pay a very large portion of income taxes. Like almost all of it. How much more do you think they should owe? Please don't use the old worn out liberal line "their fair share" because right now I would say they pay more than their fair share.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline mechanic

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 03:01:58 PM »
I've stated this before, more than once, but even if you confiscated ALL The earned income from ALL the people who make a quarter mil. or more it will not sustain this level of spending.
 
We can argue "tax the rich" all day, but has anyone put  this to a calculator?  It's too late to tax the rich or the poor or both almost.  The 16 trillion we owe is bad enough, but calculate how much more we need to sustain the systems for the next 20 or more years. 
 
I likely won't be here, but my grandchildren will suffer greatly because too much has ALREADY been spent.
 
I believe once we got past 10 trillion debt we had gone too far...
 
I have a SIL who with his earned income, military retirement, and disablility makes close to the amt. Obama calls rich.  He already pays almost 40%, when you add state and local it's almost 60%.  I have some young neighbors who made 32,000 last year.  They got all their fed. tax back, plus a nice chunk from someone else.  I made quite a bit more than that and they had more spendable income than I after tax.  Am I in the rich?
 
Ben
 
Ben
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 03:14:11 PM »
crusty,

This liberal claptrap is absurd.   The top 50% of income earners pay 100% of all taxes.  The bottom 50% pay no taxes, and get plenty of tax "rebates" via EITC and other welfare entitlements.

This "traction" simply means the GDP [grossly dumb public] is expanding.

However, you can prove me wrong.....show me a verifiable story where someone got a job from a welfare parasite. [I will check the story.]

ST762


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Offline ironglow

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 03:14:27 PM »
  Mechanic;
  It makes no difference to the boy wonder..he already knows taxing the rich will never catch up with his own profligate spending.
     He does however, have to retain his base, in order to complete his Marxist aims.  To retain his full base, he has to whip up the inordinately envious..who are a substantial portion of his base.  ...And that's what  it is all about..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2012, 03:41:10 PM »
I think there is a huge difference with this election. Make that a monumental difference..........
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
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Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2012, 06:14:12 PM »
True, do we want to reestablish the middle class or revert to feudalism.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2012, 06:35:18 PM »
True, do we want to reestablish the middle class or revert to feudalism.
And what exactly has obama done to do that?
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
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Offline magooch

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2012, 03:40:48 AM »
You can't benefit the unwashed masses by penalizing the successful.  Everyone should pay their fair share--based on citizenship and not on wealth.  No one should get a free ride, or get paid to ride.
Swingem

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2012, 04:24:35 AM »
You can't benefit the unwashed masses by penalizing the successful.  Everyone should pay their fair share--based on citizenship and not on wealth.  No one should get a free ride, or get paid to ride.

According to Crusty, obama plans of increased welfare, food stamps and crushing debt is the best approach to making the middle class stronger..... ::) ::)  I think we have seen that logic before....
 
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
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Offline rio grande

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2012, 05:39:11 AM »
It's sad we are often more concerned with what's in our wallets than what's in our hearts.

I've no problem with taxes, so long as the gov't didn't waste the money or use it for wrong-doing. I'd even pay more, or accept cuts in my social security (which I doubt I'll ever get anyway) to help others and pay down the national debt.
But let's not forget the rich and the Corporations should help as much as possible too.
We're all in this together, you know.

"Greed"  Erich von Stroheim  1924
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjSpPgJAoA

Yes Rio giving does come from the heart, but I believe you are talking about giving to a government who actually takes, with a threat behind it, then government spending it as they see fit. Real giving from the heart comes from people actually giving to other people. People tend to be more responsible, and thankful if money is given to them from other people or from the community. On the other hand people tend to think they are entitled to what the government gives them. Giving the government more of our tax dollars will not help one iota, it will only make things worse. You can bet the ranch on that! Giving from the heart, and taxes shouldn't even be used in the same sentence.
If you want to help someone, give money to local organizations that are built for helping people. Give to a church, that gives the money wisely. Give to a charity. Doing these things is what really helps people, not giving it to a Marxist government that uses it for buying votes. The problem is that Gov. takes a large portion of what people have, so what they can freely give is limited.
 For your information the top 20% already do pay a very large portion of income taxes. Like almost all of it. How much more do you think they should owe? Please don't use the old worn out liberal line "their fair share" because right now I would say they pay more than their fair share.

Infrastructure such as roads, schools, power lines, etc.  and essentials such as fire dept's, courts, police, and defense are shared commitments.
We take these on as a nation.

How much more should the rich pay?  Previous posts have detailed the changes, but to reiterate why not go back the the rates of the 60's or 70's.

Here's the chart.  Notice the trend?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213

Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2012, 05:59:48 AM »
Republicans are united in their fervent desire to reduce the deficit, but they want to do it in some magical fashion that doesn't involve raising taxes or cutting any spending. When given a choice in polls between these two options, a majority of Republicans check "none of the above" as a way to reduce the deficit. That's like deciding to pay off your student loans by daydreaming.
Or as it's known on Capitol Hill, supply-side economics. Remember that magic beans theory? That you actually bring in more revenue by bringing in less? Ronald Reagan believed it. But at least back in the '80s it was new. The thing is, we tried it, and it doesn't work. Yet, Paul Ryan, who every  pundit in America keeps telling us is a "serious" guy, still believes in the supply-side theory. All the Republicans do. They all believe in something that both science and history have shown to be pure fantasy. The symbol for their party shouldn't be an elephant -- it should be a unicorn.
Paul Ryan is their tough guy on spending but he doesn't want to touch defense -- that's right, a budget hawk who doesn't think there's anything bloated about the Defense Department's budget.  This is how low we've put the bar for political courage -- that you can just write, "I want a pony" in a binder and call it the "Plan For Restoring Vision For the Future of America's Greatness", and then everyone has to refer to you as the serious one in Congress.
-thanks to Bill Maher
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Offline DDZ

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2012, 10:48:10 AM »
Supply side economics does work and it does bring in more revenue. The problem is when this increased amount of money rolls in our elected can't keep their greedy hands off it. They spend like there is no end to it.

This is just a small example of wasteful spending that our government does, and some of you think we need to raise taxes. 

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/30-stupid-things-the-governemnt-is-spending-money-on 
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »
Another "supply side" success story!
 
Ireland Shows Supply-Side Shortcomings
It may be the most famous dinner in economic history. Arthur Laffer was a professor at the University of Chicago. In December 1974 he dined at the Two Continents Restaurant in Washington, D.C., with Donald Rumsfeld, chief of staff to President Ford; Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld's deputy; and Jude Wanniski, associate editor at The Wall Street Journal. According to Wanniski, Laffer grabbed a napkin and pen and sketched out the Laffer Curve, illustrating the trade-off between tax rates and tax revenues. In a few more years the tax-cut philosophy dubbed supply-side economics would dominate fiscal policy under President Ronald Reagan.
The global darling of supply-side economics was Ireland. The island nation was a European backwater for decades, a poor, depressed nation best known for its millions emigrating and for Guinness Stout. But in the 1980s and 1990s, Ireland started cutting taxes, and in the 1990s and 2000s it was growing at a phenomenal rate. The top marginal tax rate on personal income went from 65 percent in 1984 to 42 percent by 2000. More importantly, the corporate tax rate was cut in stages from 50 percent in 1986 to 12.5 percent by 2003. Ireland posted an average growth rate of more than 7 percent a year from 1997 to 2007, the quickest pace among the 30-plus members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Ireland was the Celtic Tiger, the Irish Miracle.
When the current U.K. Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, was MP for Tatton and Shadow Chancellor, he penned an op-ed in the Times of London in 2006. Osborne called on Britain to learn how to run an economy from Ireland. "In Britain, the Left have us stuck debating a false choice," he wrote. "They suggest you have to choose between lower taxes and public services. Yet in Ireland they have doubled spending on public services in the past decade while reducing taxes and shrinking the State's share of national income." Two years later, supply-siders Arthur B. Laffer, Stephen Moore, and Peter J. Tanous wrote in their book, The End of Prosperity: How Higher Taxes Will Doom the Economy—If We Let It Happen: "The greatest supply-side economic success story of recent times (other than the Reagan Revolution) is the Irish Economic Miracle."On Second ThoughtOops. By now, everyone in the global economy is aware that the Celtic Tiger has been declawed and the Irish Miracle a mirage. Ireland is an economic and financial disaster with a government budget deficit for 2010—including the cost of bailing out its banks—at 32 percent of gross domestic product. The nation's embattled government under Prime Minister Brian Cowen is negotiating the terms of a bailout from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.
The significance of Ireland for public policy goes far beyond the tragedy of the nation. Ireland should signal the death knell of the lets-welcome-all-tax-cuts and the-market-will-take-care-of-the-rest recipe of supply-side economics that gained political prominence starting in the 1970s. Ireland is also a warning to those in Congress who believe cutting taxes and deregulating financial services is the path back to prosperity.
Yes, the logic behind supply-side economics is simple and persuasive. Lower tax rates give entrepreneurs, management, and workers an incentive to expand business, invest more, and log additional hours by raising the after-tax rate of return. In Ireland's case, the economy benefited from its close proximity to Europe and the U.K., which made it easy for the low corporate tax rate to attract foreign capital. "Everyone agrees that there are benefits to lower tax rates," says Daniel Shaviro, tax professor at New York University law school. Adds Varadarajan V. Chari, professor of economics at the University of Minnesota: "By offering very favorable tax treatment, it could attract a lot of capital relative to the size of the country."
But the gains didn't materialize just from becoming a supply-side tax haven. Ireland devoted large resources to turn its education system into a world-class one. Its intellectual property laws and research and development incentives encouraged technological innovation. Similarly, although supply-siders sing the economic praises of the Reagan tax cuts, the effect is exaggerated (and Reagan raised taxes in 1982, '83, and '84). Far more important was Paul Volcker and the tough monetary policy he initiated that set a three-decade cycle of disinflation in motion. So were Michael Milken, Henry Kravis, T. Boone Pickens, and other finance buccaneers of the era. Technological innovation flourished, too, especially with corporate America's embrace of the personal computer in the '80s and the Internet in the '90s.
Problem is, incentives can also work against you. "Where they failed is also where the U.S. and the U.K. failed," says Jacob Funk Kirkegaard, a research fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington, D.C. "They believed the market would take care of itself, and that isn't true. The banks have been poorly regulated." Adds Chari: "The supply-siders are right to emphasize incentives, but I don't see why they don't see that incentives can work in socially perverse ways."
Certainly, that's what happened in Ireland. Regulators were nowhere to be found during the real estate-centered credit bubble. The Irish Central Bank did not have a history of independence from government and after joining the euro zone contented itself with gathering statistics and issuing currency, according to Morgan Kelly, economist at University College, Dublin. (Kelly's paper, "The Irish Credit Bubble," can be read here.) The banking industry also captured government. Kelly notes that politicians and financiers knew each other well in the small nation. The employment boom generated by bank lending—especially in the construction industry—generated a "natural alliance of interests among politicians, developers, and banks," he writes.
When it comes to generating economic growth, there's no simple blueprint (just ask the Obama Administration). Tax incentives matter. But supply-side economics has deteriorated into a mantra in which cuts are needed all the time to keep the economy growing. But there is no free lunch. Tax cuts coupled with a deregulated financial sector is a recipe for disaster. Ireland is paying the price. Let's hope Congress remembers Ireland as it debates fiscal policy.
 
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/nov2010/pi20101119_644055.htm#p2
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Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2012, 01:16:28 PM »
If you cut spending, the deficit will go down. If you reduce taxes in those areas that are over taxed, there will be growth. That growth will generate new tax revenues because people who are laid off get a job. Business pays more taxes because they have more revenue.
 
I know it’s a concept that you liberals really don't care for. But it works and the Obama big government spending with government trickle-down economics and ballooning deficits just does not work.
 
Sorry Crusty but, increasing the food stamp enrollment, the welfare enrollment, ballooning deficits, record home foreclosures, destroying our health care system and increasing unemployment are not in the best interest of the middle class. No matter what you say.
 
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Long Live the King! #3

Offline crustylicious

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Re: Traction- the message is getting some..............
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2012, 04:05:36 AM »
You can't demonstrate where supply side has worked in a sustainable fashion.  "It would have worked ,but......" doesn't count.  Failure is what has been demonstrated.
 
I'm continuously amazed at the number of middle class lackeys willing to defend supply siders to their own detriment.  What drives them? Reagan worship? Inability to separate issues from the party platform? Natural law? Theology? Jealousy?
 
It's not about how we got here or the distaste for certain programs it's about where we're going.
 
But hey, keep chanting!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein