Author Topic: Is Chevy Volt a goner? (Read 2392 times)

ironglow · « **Reply #30 on:** August 29, 2012, 02:05:25 PM »

From Guzzi;

Quote from Ironglow:
"With his efforts to salvage the unions, Obammy decreed that GM build an electric car."
''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Ironglow, Ironglow, Ironglow. What else are you going to blame Obama for? Obama was still a senator when GM was developing the Volt.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Precisely what I was speaking of, Guzzi ... If Obammay would have stayed out of the situation when he did become petty-dictator, the powers to be at General Motors ...(now known as Government Motors) may have dropped this whole unweildy project. Natural wisdom would have taken it's course and those compaies who could do so, would go ahead and produce a decently engineered car..without the taxpayers having to chip in $7500.00 for each inefficent unit produced. Government should stay out of commercial business.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
From the dictionary;

fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ [fash-iz-uhm] noun 1. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive internationalism and often racism.* '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' He's not there yet..but he sure is gaining..

* ...Red letters my addition

Drilling Man · « **Reply #31 on:** August 29, 2012, 02:10:04 PM »

The new diesels DO have aluminum in them, and they really aren't running much slower than gas motors these days, at least in a car. It's amazing how slow gas engines now run, once they get into OD.
I don't think any of the new car diesels have wet liners, even the Cummins in my Dodge doesn't have wet liners nor does the Duromax or Ford diesel.

You can buy a nat gas van from Chevy right now...

BTW, i saw a new Volt forsale at a Chevy dealer today, so they must not be holding them...

DM

ironglow · « **Reply #32 on:** August 29, 2012, 02:32:33 PM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on August 29, 2012, 10:11:55 AM

I think I mentioned this somewhere else, that 85% of Germany's cars are diesel, because they wanted to cut imported oil. Diesel was the easiest and quickest alternative. We should do the same and it would cut about half the imported oil. Germany is now experimenting with flywheel/electric for energy storage and are getting 20% better fuel economy. If this pans out, they will have increased fuel economy by 30% over gasoline by switching to diesel, then once diesel/flywheel takes off, increase another 20%. That is double the fuel economy for about the same cost as a hybrid. Yet, not rare earth lithium, not hard to work on, and flywheels are much simplier than a lithium battery. Germany has and are doing this incrementally and the conversion is at an easier pace and lower cost upgrade each step.

That being said, other than oil and filter changes, are diesels harder to maintain?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Much more sensible route than an electric car..especially in areas where sub-freezing temperatures exist! Heating and air conditioning can function in the normal way. Have they ever honestly tested the efficency of a Volt parked outdoors in an Alaskan winter? How about a New York, Montana, Michigan, Minnesota, Maine or North Dakota winter ? How about an Arizona summer in high heat wit AC running?
Natural gas makes a lot of sense..so how much "stimulus" money went to this more logical development?

...But then, how much "stimulus" money went into actual research..and how much went into "bundlers" pockets?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #33 on:** August 29, 2012, 03:44:07 PM »

Natural gas got ZERO money from stimulus. ZERO. The feds could have kick started natural gas by changing the postal delivery trucks to CNG (Compressed Natural Gas). All they had to do for businesses to change their fleets is give a tax break on whatever they spent to change to CNG. UPS has told us, if we had stations to fill up, they would change their delivery trucks. I do know that Birmingham city buses use CNG. Nashville city vehicles are CNG. I think Houston and Dalas are CNG for city vehicles. Most natural gas utilites are using CNG. Now if the Feds would require their vehicles, and require cities, counties, and states to change their vehicles, we could cut 40% of all imported oil. That means ALL that money would STAY in the USA and stimulate the economy. It would not have cost near as much to build this nationwide filling infrastructure as was spent on solar and wind subsities. Once the compressor stations were in place around the country, all that would be required then would be maintenance. No more government stimulus or tax credits needed. Jobs provided here maintaining this infrastructure, using American gas. We are wasting natural gas producing electricity when that could be handled better with coal and nuclear.

On nuclear, we should use thorium reactors instead of uranium or plutonium. The radioactive half life of thorium is in months not centuries for the other two. Thorium cannot be made into bombs either. Thorium is also more plentiful than uranium.

Coal should be made into synthetic diesel or gasoline for other vehicles to eliminate the imported oil. We spend billions on imported oil and OPEC and other do not spend that money they made on American products, but buy European an Asian products. So lets keep the money at home, and spend it here to create jobs here.

ironglow · « **Reply #34 on:** August 29, 2012, 04:07:10 PM »

The narrow minded view of the lefties precludes the common sense provision of natural gas. When Mr Treehugger plugs in his megawatt cruiser...just where does he think that electric power is coming from? Perhaps his narrow mind doesn't extend to the coal, gas, oil or nuclear fired generating plant. If our transportation were to go "all electric", we would need vastly more electric generating capability? Which of these plants..coal, oil, nuclear or gas would the obama supporters approve the building of?
I'm thinking that if they approved any..it would be natural gas...
....But why go all the way through the generating station? Why build a whole new series of vehicles with totally different systems? ...Just get the gas to vehicles very little different from what we drive now.. That has a much better chance of being accomplished than any of the hare-brained schemes of the EPA..

Incidently, Gov Bob McDonnell had the EPA completely figured out when he called the EPA what it actually is..
The "Employment Prevention Agency"

streak · « **Reply #35 on:** August 29, 2012, 04:56:30 PM »

As I have posted many times Graybeard Outdoors subjects pertaining to energy use on this earth, natural gas is the way to go!!

crustylicious · « **Reply #36 on:** August 29, 2012, 06:29:07 PM »

Cheap lease, car-pool access help Chevy Volt to sales record
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/08/cheap-lease-car-pool-access-help-chevy-volt-to-sales-record/1

crustylicious · « **Reply #37 on:** August 29, 2012, 06:52:09 PM »

Just for the record:
The $7,500 EV tax credit was enacted in late 2008 by then-President George W. Bush

Looks like the lefties have some common sense:
Obama Unveils New Alt-Fuel Plan To Include CNG And Efficient Petrol Engines
http://gas2.org/2012/03/09/obama-unveils-new-alt-fuel-plan-to-include-cng-and-efficient-petrol-engines/

and China doesn't control all the lithium mines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #38 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:19:02 AM »

I didn't say the lithium was in China. They control most of it. The own the mines or controling interest in the mines.

http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/commodities/investing-in-commodities-chinas-lithium-war-44723

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/who-wants-afghanistans-lithium-chinas-electric-vehicle-players/

http://sufiy.blogspot.com/2009/04/lithium-china-aims-to-be-world.html

China has South Americas, Africas, and is getting into Afganistan. So why are we going to buy their lithium batteries, when we can go natural gas, diesel, and add flywheel assistance and do the same without buying from China?

The article you cited is slanted. MOST natural gas is not drilled by big oil companies, but independent drillers, and small to medium companies. My company drills for gas and has billions of cubit feet tapped, yet we are considered a medium sized company. Not big oil. Yes, natural gas is found in oil, but it is also found in coal seams, deep fracked wells, and offshore. Far more places than oil, that is why we have an abundant supply. Burning it for electric production is inefficient yet clean. Only about 35% of the initial energy from burning is actually delivered as power to your home due to power losses in transforming and resistance on powerlines. Piping it directly to your home is 80% efficient, or directly to a CNG refueling station. This is because only a portion is used to operate compressors to keep the pressure up. Natural gas is stored in the summer in giant liquid tanks at -260 degrees F. My company has two liquid gas farms, one north of Montgomery and one in Birmingham. They can supply enough gas for about 2 months in the winter without the pipelines crossing the state in case there is a major pipeline problem. We also have an abandoned salt mine in Mississippi that stores another 2-3 months underground. We have a well in Mobile bay that was drilled back in the 1980's that came out of the well at 1,400 psi. It is still coming out at that pressure. We don't really know how much is down there. We also have wells in West Texas and New Mexico. We have a public refueling station in Birmingham where the city buses, postal trucks, gas survice trucks and UPS refuel. We are trying to get one in all towns we serve. Other gas companies like ours, Piedmont gas in North Carolina, Atlanta Gas, Chesapeke Bay gas, are all trying to get CNG refueling stations installed. None of these companies are BIG OIL.

The cheapest alternatives vehicle costs are:
1) Compressed Natural gas
2) Diesel
3) Add flywheel hybrid assistance to the above
4) Electric hybrid
5) Plug in Hybrid
6) electric
7) Hydrogen

Now, why aren't we developing the less expensive fuel efficiencies first? Because far left environmentalists want electric.

We have to consider the infrastructure. Natural gas is already piped into almost every town in America, so stations can be built almost anywhere. Diesel is also everywhere. Flywheels do not require rare earths like lithium but steel for the flywheels. Good way to get OUR steel industry back up. The disadvantage of hydrogen is it is cheaper to make it from natural gas (CH4) than from water (H2O) because there is twice as much hydrogen in natural gas as water. But why go to that trouble when you can use natural gas like it is. The disadvantage to electrics or plug in hybrids is we would have to build about 10-20% more power plants to handle the recharging. As I stated above making and delivering electricity is innefficient, pipeing gasoline, diesel, and natural gas is far more efficient use of resources.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #39 on:** August 30, 2012, 04:11:07 AM »

I think the preference for electric/hybrid is that we have really good batteries that were not available before. So the batteries are an enabling technology that has stimulated development of something that could previously not be made into a commercial product. Looking at the big picture, this means that electricity has a lot of potential for development in cars, whereas gasoline and diesel are more mature technologies that have already been heavily developed.

As for natural gas, I don't want to be within a mile of anyplace where people are pumping their own natural gas. Kaboom is not my favorite sound.

As for clean diesel, meaning automotive diesel that passes emissions tests in all 50 states, the history goes something like this: VW was selling diesels in the US and then got out of it for a few years. In about 2009 they introduced their clean diesels to the US market. There were some teething pains. But it looks like they are really good now. Audi uses the same technology but with urea injection into the emissions system for lower emissions. By all accounts, VW's diesels are awesome performers. But you're more tied to the dealer. For example the oil is specially formulated synthetic sold in the US as a special OE (original equipment) formulation (507.7, I think) and this is only available through VW dealers or mail order. An oil change is a very involved process requiring the removal of a plastic sound deadening plate under the engine (9 torx screws), the replacement of the oil filter plug, the very messy removal and replacement of a non-cannister oil filter, and the use of this expensive specialty oil. The good thing is that oil changes are only done every 10,000 miles (and that does mean 10,000. Fewer miles is worse because there's a detergent component to the oil and that fresh detergent should not be added too frequently.)

Another thing about diesel, is that the clean diesels are developed for B10 (i.e., 10% bio-diesel, 90% petroleum diesel) but some states with a heavy agriculture lobby like Minnesota have successfully pushed to make B20 the fuel standard in those states for diesel. In other words, the only diesel available will be fuel for which the clean diesels were not designed. The diesel market is driven by trucking, not cars. Only about 2% of passenger cars are diesels, and that includes pickup trucks.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #40 on:** August 30, 2012, 05:08:29 AM »

Conan, natural gas is compressed in cylinders like oxygen and acetylene under similar pressures. Hospitals, welders, etc, all use these types of cylinders. CNG is currently being used in a lot of places world wide with no explosions. I have seen tests on these cylinders shot with a rifle and the bullet will not penetrate them. There is double on valves and double off valves when filling up. I know it sounds like a lot, but one cup of gasoline is equal to 4 sticks of dynamite. After years of use, we've never had a problem. 35% of Italy's fuel is CNG, mostly all governmental trucks, buses, and cars. They import it as liquid from Algeria. Germany imports it's oil and natural gas, so they decided the easiest way to cut imports was to go diesel. My former supervisors wife had a VW diesel and was getting 50mpg. You are around high pressure cylinders all the time, especially if you visit a hospital or get around someone using a welding torch. Same equipment is used to store compressed gas. Same bottles. If you use natural gas at your house, you may have 20-40 psig at your meter with a regulator to lower it before it goes into your house. Diesel is the safest fuel because it doesn't explode unless it is under pressure which is in the engines. Gasoline can explode from a leak in a car or car crash. Natural gas would be more like a torch if it leaks and catches on fire. Diesel only burns, but doesn't explode. With natural gas, if it is on fire like that, one can use a fire extinguisher at the base and put it out. Any leak rises in the air and dissipates since it is lighter than air. It doesn't puddle or run like diesel or gasoline to be a fire hazzard on the ground.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #41 on:** August 30, 2012, 05:28:36 AM »

Dixie Dude:

Thanks for the info. As you can tell I'm not very familiar with natural gas as a fuel except that a lot of business and some bus lines run their fleets on it.

Natural gas as a car fuel, as long as it's safe, makes a lot more sense than using it as a fuel for power plants, which is is used for. Power plant use is wasteful because the fuel is portable and should be used in places where portability matters, not in power plants that have other options for fuel.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #42 on:** August 30, 2012, 05:40:55 AM »

Like I said, China is cornering the market on lithium. They are building more cars that us now, and they want to use the least amount of fuel. And, like I said, Germany is now 85% diesel on their vehicles to cut oil use. So, it would be easier for us, and cheaper to use natural gas and diesel, and it would cut imported oil and imported batteries. We still have a lot of iron and steel, so flywheel storage in vehicles for additional acceleration power would cut imports and costs too. We need to get our people back to work using our raw materials and resources. Coal, natural gas, iron, steel, etc. We also need to stop using food for fuel.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #43 on:** August 30, 2012, 06:18:07 AM »

Quote from: tobster on August 28, 2012, 12:35:36 PM

Has anyone seen any real numbers on what it cost for the electricity to charge an electric car? All the ads on T.V. seem to give the impression that since you're not buying gasoline there is no cost associated with driving an electric car. ( If I ever get to where I need a golf cart, and I'm too not far off, I'll get one of those quiet little gas jobs that start when you touch the gas pedal, not a battery powered one.)

I never got that impression, but I suppose the impression you get is sometimes teh the one you want... anyhow, in answer to your questions re: cost... a quick Google search brings up these:

This first link is especially good reading, debunking some of the ideologically-driven Volt-bashing & explaining what the Volt really is:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp
on costs:
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-for-use-and-cost-of-operation/
a useful FAQ:
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/
and another cost analysis
http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevy-volt-electric-car-off-peak-charging-cost-analysis
...all of which may be dismissed by ideologues more interested in having their politics affirmed, rather then learning something about the Volt
For fuel-efficient vehicles/future... mark me down as a fan of diesels. Hybrids have a place, though they're not there bang-for-the-buck wise. FWIW I drive a nearly 20-year old car that's less expensive to operate than most anything I can find new.
Someone noted disappointment with an Escape. I'm actually shopping for one of those. My GF has a 2009 Rav4 w/4cyl - excellent vehicle - gets about 25 mpg day-to-day, more if I'm driving it. Escape is about the same - I've driven one a few times - should do about as well. Key is a light foot, and conservation of momentum. And remember: in all things, moderation:
http://www.examiner.com/article/double-your-gas-mileage-with-hypermiling

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #44 on:** August 30, 2012, 06:31:54 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on August 29, 2012, 04:07:10 PM

The narrow minded view of the lefties precludes the common sense provision of natural gas.

LET ME SUBMIT that you are Exhibit A, Mr Ironglow, when it comes to narrow-mindedness... or perhaps you're just much smarter than all those folks you don't agree with?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** August 30, 2012, 06:32:32 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 28, 2012, 03:58:23 AM

To be fair, though, they said that about the Prius, except it was 10k for the batteries. However, the failures are not nearly as common as was expected by some, and there is an aftermarket for Prius batteries, and a replacement set costs about 3k.

I imagine the leaf batteries will continue to be relatively expensive because of the very low production numbers.

15k is about the price of replacing an automotive engine with a new one, by the way.Really what kind of car ? RR ? A new engine for a Ford F 350 is around $4000.00 or less when jasper runs a speical. Install another $700.00 or less .And you can expect over 200000 miles out of it or more . But to compare the battry to the engine is not apples to apples how abot the fuel cell to hold gas to the battry ? That's what it does. The figure cost of charging and equipment to charge. then add it all up and see which is easier on the wallet over the life of a vehicle .

I think if you live in a warm climate and just drive around town, as many people do, the electric cars do make a fine option. I grew up in a neighborhood where almost nobody ever drove more than ten miles per day for years, typically owned two cars (one per spouse), and took an occasional road trip. In a case like that one of the cars could be electric, and the other conventional.

I frequently visit an area where golf carts are really deluxe now. Virtually cars. This is because people just drive around the island to shop or go to the beach or visit friends, etc. They do own cars, but most of their driving is in the golf carts.

http://www.luxurycarts.com/

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #46 on:** August 30, 2012, 06:56:01 AM »

Shootall:

I'm going by dealer prices using factory engines. Try calling a Ford dealer and see what they charge for a factory new engine, installed. It would cost about $15,000 to replace the engine in my car if I went through a dealer for a brand new engine from the factory.

I think only cars driven on the highway are likely to have 200k miles or more during their service life. The batteries don't do anything on a prius when the car is driven on the highway. It's only for slow speed driving. The volt won't go far on the highway without using gas, and the leaf is useless for highway travel of any distance.

I did look at the Prius for a recent car purchase. Didn't buy one because it's not a good highway car and the electric drive doesn't do me much good because I'm seldom in stop and go traffic. It's really important for potential hybrid buyers to figure how they are really going to use the car. I see a lot of people on the highways during rush hour driving priuses. They may benefit from the good gas mileage, but there are plenty of good cars that get good gas mileage but don't have the complexity and expense of the synergy drive.

tobster · « **Reply #47 on:** August 30, 2012, 07:01:26 AM »

I had a friend in California who owned a Prius and said they were allowed to use the carpool lane even if they had no passengers.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #48 on:** August 30, 2012, 07:05:43 AM »

Quote from: Conan The Librarian on August 30, 2012, 06:56:01 AM

Shootall:

I'm going by dealer prices using factory engines. Try calling a Ford dealer and see what they charge for a factory new engine, installed. It would cost about $15,000 to replace the engine in my car if I went through a dealer for a brand new engine from the factory.

I think only cars driven on the highway are likely to have 200k miles or more during their service life. The batteries don't do anything on a prius when the car is driven on the highway. It's only for slow speed driving. The volt won't go far on the highway without using gas, and the leaf is useless for highway travel of any distance.

I did look at the Prius for a recent car purchase. Didn't buy one because it's not a good highway car and the electric drive doesn't do me much good because I'm seldom in stop and go traffic. It's really important for potential hybrid buyers to figure how they are really going to use the car. I see a lot of people on the highways during rush hour driving priuses. They may benefit from the good gas mileage, but there are plenty of good cars that get good gas mileage but don't have the complexity and expense of the synergy drive.

we switch back and forth between Jasper and Ford both run speicals With all due respect you might should shop around as we use dealers also .

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #49 on:** August 30, 2012, 07:31:28 AM »

I certainly wouldn't pay 15k for the replacement, but that's what I got as a quote. I think it's a function of different manufacturers and dealers.

Transmissions are the same kind of thing. I just replace a transmission in my Ford, $2000 installed. It was used, but with relatively low miles. That's one of the nice things about Ford trucks. Lots of options for getting them fixed.

Are those Jasper engines new, rebuilt, or remanufactured? How do they handle the shipping?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** August 30, 2012, 07:50:09 AM »

We replaced one about a year ago in a 2007 chevy half ton cost us $3400.00 I think at a Chevy dealer , We do get fleet pricing. I agree dealers get different prices from place to place.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #51 on:** August 30, 2012, 09:35:19 AM »

The best way to transition to other fuels in my opinion is:

1) Use natural gas for fleet vehicles since natural gas companies are having a hard time getting gas service stations to install compressors. Fleets usually have a yard, so a CNG compressor could be installed for the fleet to use.
2) Gradually introduce diesels in cars and trucks for the public, to get the mileage up. I have also found out something else. Diesel doesn't cost any more than gasoline to produce, but sometimes has a higher tax on it so the government can gouge the trucking industry (my opinion). This could be equalised to keep prices in line with gasoline.
3) After fleets convert to CNG, then this could be transitioned to vehicles for the public. This would end up with 3 types of fuel, CNG, diesel, and gasoline at service stations.

Germany is also experimenting with diesel hybrids to get 75-100 mpg. They however are experimenting with higher voltage charging. At 110 volts it takes a hybrid about 8 hours to recharge. At 220 it takes about 4 hours, at 440 it takes about 2 hours. Europe already uses 220 as standard voltage whereas we use 110. Now, as you can see higher voltage can recharge much faster. They are hoping to cut it down to less than an hour. That way electrics and hybrids used by long distance travelers can stop for lunch and recharge. However these vehicles are in the $90,000-$100,000 range.

So electrics are not yet there so the above three ideas can be used now to completely eliminate imported oil along with developing our own resources. All could be within 8-10 years as fleets and manufacturers gear up to actually get something done.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #52 on:** August 30, 2012, 10:36:35 AM »

VW has an interesting concept project called the one liter (100 kilometers of distance on one liter of fuel). Here's an article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car

DDZ · « **Reply #53 on:** August 30, 2012, 12:06:49 PM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on August 30, 2012, 09:35:19 AM

That way electrics and hybrids used by long distance travelers can stop for lunch and recharge. However these vehicles are in the $90,000-$100,000 range.

Just thinking, but if I had 100K to spend on a car, how much gas it uses would not be an issue. Im thinking something like a Nissan GTR, Viper, something in the 450 to 500hp range, that does 0-60 in around 4sec. You know something that I don't have to plug in and wait for it to charge. Nor something that takes 20 seconds to get to 60mph. Then again maybe someone would want one of those things to sit in a garage for 100K, so they could say "look what I got" Kind of like for show and tell purposes.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #54 on:** August 31, 2012, 01:46:17 AM »

I can fill my truck up with gas and go about 550 miles on a long trip. I can stop for gas and go another 550 miles maybe run thru a drive thru and get lunch and keep driving. Some places in this country there are few places to get food or gas with out going miles. I rteally don't want my car/truck to dictate when I stop for lunch when I like to drive all night and miss alot of traffic. When we go to Canada to hunt its abot 1850 miles we do it in about 34 hrs . That includes stopping for fuel and food.

magooch · « **Reply #55 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:07:50 AM »

We don't need to fix something that is not broken. Gasoline works fine and if the government would get out of the way and allow all kinds of drilling in all kinds of places, we should be good. We could use some more refineries, but here again the government needs to stay out of the way.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #56 on:** August 31, 2012, 04:39:21 AM »

Yep, you can buy a very nice car or truck for $25,000 or less, and $75,000 still buys a lot of gas or diesel, and at $5 a gallon at 25 mpg you can drive the vehicle for 375,000. Far longer than most people would keep a vehicle. A $25,000 Voltswagon TDI diesel gets 42 highway and 20 something in town. At an average of say 30mpg, that would be over 400,000 miles. An total electric $100,000 car just doesn't make sense.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #57 on:** August 31, 2012, 05:27:02 PM »

I read that the main reason for the sales increase lately is a 249 per month lease deal.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 31, 2012, 07:52:33 PM »

got just over 35mpg mixed driving last week, runnin' newly-fixed a/c often. Yippee.

nw_hunter · « **Reply #59 on:** September 02, 2012, 04:51:05 AM »

We have a pretty good thread going here with the exception of two.......Guess who?
Not one to mention names, I'll just say...........IG and YT knock of the narrow minded, tree hugging , lefty comments and replies just as inflammatory and try to comment on topic without letting your childish tempers flare.It's getting old! Any more personal spitting, and you will just cause another thread to be locked. Most on here are pretty much obeying the rules.Why don't you two try it? Or perhaps we can look at other alternatives.