Author Topic: Is Chevy Volt a goner? (Read 2401 times)

ironglow · « **on:** August 28, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »

With his efforts to salvage the unions, Obammy decreed that GM build an electric car. No matter that others were already building a superior electric car.. for less money..the messiah plunged ahead. Now the Volt production is being shut down "temporarily".. Chevy has 6,500 being held in stock..why?
What are the odds volt production will ever be restarted ?

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:01:52 AM »

I think it will continue production. Te sales are up, although the numbers are probably distorted by sales to government. I think the sales trend for volt has been steadily upward, with monthly sales aboutthe same as total sales for the first year. GM is investing heavily in electric technology. I am seeing a lot more hybrids on the road when driving innthe city, even hybrids which cannot possibly pay for themselves in fuel savings, like the Ford Escape.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/07/03/volt-sales-beat-leaf-for-fifth-straight-month/

magooch · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:50:32 AM »

If what I was told by a guy in the business is true, you'd have to be a moron to buy an electric car. I was told that when the Leaf batteries go tits up, it costs $15,000 for a new set. That makes it a throw away vehicle--no trade in and no resale. The Volt is probably in the same category.

The thing that has to stop is government subsidies for buying these losers.

ironglow · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:57:52 AM »

Right; those sales figures are bogus. Along with the government purchases, which obama can order done, the govt is paying individuals something like $7,200 to buiy one.

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:58:23 AM »

To be fair, though, they said that about the Prius, except it was 10k for the batteries. However, the failures are not nearly as common as was expected by some, and there is an aftermarket for Prius batteries, and a replacement set costs about 3k.

I imagine the leaf batteries will continue to be relatively expensive because of the very low production numbers.

15k is about the price of replacing an automotive engine with a new one, by the way.

I think if you live in a warm climate and just drive around town, as many people do, the electric cars do make a fine option. I grew up in a neighborhood where almost nobody ever drove more than ten miles per day for years, typically owned two cars (one per spouse), and took an occasional road trip. In a case like that one of the cars could be electric, and the other conventional.

I frequently visit an area where golf carts are really deluxe now. Virtually cars. This is because people just drive around the island to shop or go to the beach or visit friends, etc. They do own cars, but most of their driving is in the golf carts.

http://www.luxurycarts.com/

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2012, 04:37:25 AM »

Here's another one: street legal electric vehicles.

http://www.roadratmotors.com/commercial-electric-vehicles

guzzijohn · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2012, 04:46:40 AM »

Quote from Ironglow:
"With his efforts to salvage the unions, Obammy decreed that GM build an electric car."
[/size]
[/size]Ironglow, Ironglow, Ironglow. What else are you going to blame Obama for? Obama was still a senator when GM was developing the Volt.

2007 Detroit Auto Show: Chevrolet Volt

GuzziJohn

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2012, 04:57:20 AM »

I think it's a good thing to have alternative fueled cars. It was so long between the 1970s gas crisis and the relatively recent significant improvements in fuel mileage. There are bound to be breakthroughs we can live with. As far as I'm concerned the Prius is a breakthrough in itself, truly a mainstream car that gets fantastic mileage and has over a period of 15 years proven to be reasonably priced to maintain.

Another good thing is the advances in clean diesel from Volkswagen and Audi. That's pretty amazing stuff. Super nice cars, great performance, excellent fuel mileage, environmentally friendly. We don't hear enough about these fine cars because so much of the focus is on electric now.

I think we can safely say that the flexfuel vehicles are on their way out of the mainstream, at least in terms of ethanol as an ascendent form of fuel. I think it's being realized that ethanol is not the future of automotive fuels, but instead a regional boutique fuel option

Guzzi: As for blame, I say we should blame him for anything and everything. Blaming is his legacy, so send a little back his way. Truth and facts don't matter in politics anyway, so why should they matter in this case?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2012, 05:12:25 AM »

Electrics and hybrids can't pay for themselves over the life of the AVERAGE time people keep a vehicle. I think diesels are a better bargan. They don't have batteries to replace, they cost more than gasoline, but less than hybrids. They get 30% better fuel economy than gasoline, yet cost only about 20% more, so they will actually pay for themselves. One couple drove a new Voltswagon 4 door vehicle from Houston to Virginia on one tank of gas, but never went over 60mph, and got 83mpg.

mannyrock · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2012, 05:14:50 AM »

Just a few thoughts:

1. When electronic calculators first came out in 1976, you could not buy them in any store. You had to order one by mail from either Texas Instruments or Hewlett Packard. I paid $425! (in 1976 dollars) for my first calculator, so I would have one for college. (Minimum wage was about $2.00 per hour, so it took my entire summer job savings to buy it.) Ten years later, the exact calculators cost $50. Mass production results in grossly cheaper prices per unit.

2. The first hybrid electric cars are now wearing out (the Prius), some approaching 10 years old. Guess what. The engineers are finding that the cars are falling apart, but that the batteries are still good, and I mean really good. Most have 90% to 95% capacity. There will be a huge business in selling used batteries for electric cars. We won't just throw these away.

3. I believe the U.S. was spending about $10 Billion dollars a month on the war in Iraq. Imagine if you will that the government had taken just one-half of a month of that money, and used it to buy and install electric car charging stations throughout the U.S. Interstate system. These charging stations cost about $5,000 to build and install. (My son is a director at Duke Energy, in charge of building them.) Check my math, but that ten billion would have paid for ONE MILLION charging stations. They would all pay for themselves by requiring the customer to swipe his credit card through the machine in order to get his charge.

4. I am not saying that the Leaf and Volt are perfect cars. Of course they aren't. Modern electric vehicles are in their infancy. But just imagine what our great grandfathers were saying about the new gasoline powered horseless carriages that were popping up around the countryside, that had to be started with a turn crank! They probably regarded them as a joke and firmly predicted that they would never ever catch on. And, I'm betting that 35 years ago, all of us regarded the Vick Commadore 54 Computer (sold by Captain Kirk on t.v.) as a passing toy fad, and that is was beyond our comprehension that massively powerful and cheap computers would be in everyones house and briefcase today.

The world moves on gentlemen, whether we like it or not.

Mannyrock

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2012, 05:30:00 AM »

MannyRock:

About #4 in your post, that's exactly what happened. Gasoline was seen as exotic and dangerous.

About the diesels, I think it depends on how much you drive. If you drive a lot, the new diesels are flaming awesome. Absolutely sensational. Great highway cars.

Larry L · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2012, 06:00:07 AM »

The Volt's not gone. They'll be running more cars thru the line. Next year GM plans to have one coming out of the same building but with a Caddy emblem on the front. It'll be the same car just upscaled a lot. Gotta make the money some how and porking the dimwits that buy into this crapola is now aimed at the ones with deeper pockets.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2012, 06:14:26 AM »

Donno about the Volt or the Prius. But I had the "opportunity" to drive an Escape hybrid from Iowa to Arkansas and back earlier this year. 24MPG was the best it could do and on the return trip it was down to 20 MPG.

My 1992 Dodge Caravan can do better than that!

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2012, 06:26:20 AM »

My buddy got an Escape, not hybrid, and has been really disappointed with fuel mileage. It's about the same as the bigger Explorer, but without the better towing capacity and interior space. The electric part of the hybrid doesn't do any good on a road trip, only in town. I do see a lot of highway commuters with Priuses and they are clearly not getting full value from the car. They'd be better off with a diesel, as would others who drive on the highway a lot.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:28:13 AM »

Here is the problem with the lithium batteries. China owns 90% of the lithium mines in the world. They will be able to name their price for lithium because they think that is the route we are taking...hybrids. The reason I mentioned diesel is because Germany decided to go to diesel vehicles several years ago to cut their imported oil. It worked. They have the best and lowest cost diesels so far. Toyota also makes diesels to sell in foreign markets, but not in America. Audi is working on a diesel with a flywheel for power storage. It is 20% better on fuel economy so far in tests than the regular diesel vehicle. So that means a flywheel diesel will get twice the mileage that a gasoline vehicle and be competitive with a hybrid. Flywheels are cheaper to make than lithium batteries.

That being said, I think the big three are going to come out with more diesel vehicles, especially larger ones to raise their mileage.

Sourdough · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2012, 09:56:26 AM »

If I wanted an electric vehicle I'd buy a golf cart. The company Obama set up to make the batteries went belly up, so there are no more batteries for the thing anyway. It's obsolite before it got out of the show room. Another Obama pushed taxpayer boondoggle.

If people wanted electric cars, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda would be making them.

It's not Obama's job to tell us what kind of car to drive. And as for that Ethanol in our fuel, glafd we don't have that stuff here in Alaska, our cars and trucks are running fine, we don't need that crap to mess things up. When I went south last year my car hardly ran on that crap.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:09:05 AM »

Fuel is going to have to get quite a bit more expensive or the auto companies are going to have to have a really good ad campaign to get most Americans to buy into diesel. I know and many here know that diesels for cars have come a long, long ways but I don't think the average person is aware of what current diesels are like. I know that I cannot help but to think back to the 80s when GM made some real junk diesel engines. I think most people still think of them as very noisy and smelly.
GuzziJohn

guzzijohn · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:10:58 AM »

Fuel is going to have to get quite a bit more expensive or the auto companies are going to have to have a really good ad campaign to get most Americans to buy into diesel. I know and many here know that diesels for cars have come a long, long ways but I don't think the average person is aware of what current diesels are like. I know that I cannot help but to think back to the 80s when GM made some real junk diesel engines. I think most people still think of them as very noisy and smelly.
GuzziJohn

Conan The Librarian · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:13:37 AM »

I think you're right about the public perception of diesels. I was prejudiced against them untiil I got to drive one of the new VWs. Awesome car. Powerful. Comfortable. No long wait for the glow plugs. Etc.

I worked for a guy in the 80s who had one of those diesel Sevilles. What a piece of junk. NO accelleration at all. It was horribly underpowered, although it did have a V8. I drove it a few times and it was scary. You really had to plan your intersections carefully.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:25:09 AM »

I had a diesel Caprice station wagon back in the 80's. Had very slow acceleration, but decent mileage. Got about 18-20mpg and it was a heavy vehicle. Germany has the lead on diesels. Japan has the lead on hybrids. I've also heard Jaguar in England is looking into flywheel storage for their vehicles, 20% better fuel economy, same as what Audi is doing. Hybrids get about 30% better but cost more. Flywheels can get 20% better and cost less. Hmm, maybe a slow step up at a time. I think in 10-20 years all vehicles will have either flywheel or hybrid batteries and probably average 30-50mpg on cars and 20-30 on trucks if the economy can improve. I think we also should be making synthetic fuel from coal, not ethynol. Food for food, not fuel. We have an 800 year supply of coal, lets use it for vehicle fuel and stop importing oil.

mcbammer · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:34:42 AM »

Only thing bad about diesel vehicles is the engine noise . You can hear one coming long before you see it.

DDZ · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2012, 12:09:44 PM »

The government has to give people a $7500 credit to get them to buy this piece of crap, and people are still not buying them. What does that tell us. If you run the heater, air conditioner, go over 55, or drive in cold weather, it lessons the miles you can drive on electric, which is about 30 miles. Then to charge, it takes at least 8-10 hours depending on again how cold it is. Then you would need a receptacle near by to plug into every day. Unless you want to roll out an extension cord every time you want to charge it. All this for 35K and 7500 of tax payers money. I wouldn't buy one of these if the cost was 10K.

People don't want this car period. I figure its only a matter of time before they stop production of it because of costs and no one buying them. Then again since the government owns a third of GM they can keep volt production running with more tax payers dollars. They could just let them pile up. Kind of what they are doing now. Wonder what it costs to have these pieces of junk sit on dealers lots. Maybe they can add a 20K credit to as a prop for the volt. The 7500 credit certainly hasn't worked.
This is what happens when government takes over a car company and tries to pick winners in the market place, because eco wackos and puffed up marxists decided that the future is electric cars.
A better idea would be to get the stinking government out of ownership in car companies, stop protecting greedy unions, that have helped decimate the auto industry in America, get rid of some of the regulations that are strangling the industry, and let the market decide what cars people want. I see this car as a novelty for people with money to burn. "Hey look at me I got a green volt"

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2012, 12:26:58 PM »

I want to try out a VW diesel, (some are now made in Chattanoga,TN) and see how noisy it is. How clean it is, and how smooth a ride they have. The 4 door model about the size of a Tarus Ford or a Chevy Malabu, is around $25,000 diesel. Lots cheaper than a $40,000 volt even with the federal discount.

I found out that tax is added to diesel that is higher than gasoline in some states. Diesel tax in Florida is higher than in Alabama. Don't know why. Diesel is only a few cents higher in Alabama than in Florida. It is about the same as 93 octane gas.

tobster · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2012, 12:35:36 PM »

Has anyone seen any real numbers on what it cost for the electricity to charge an electric car? All the ads on T.V. seem to give the impression that since you're not buying gasoline there is no cost associated with driving an electric car. ( If I ever get to where I need a golf cart, and I'm too not far off, I'll get one of those quiet little gas jobs that start when you touch the gas pedal, not a battery powered one.)

JonnyReb · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2012, 01:04:37 PM »

Everything obamas touched is failing and I see the signs of trouble not just with the volt, but with GM itself. A few local dealers are overflowing with cars and have had to rent parking space to hold additional HUNDREDS of vehicles. No surprise but the Freightliner plant(daimler/chrysler) in a neighboring town seems to be doing the same. They pumped up production to appear busy and to keep the union dues coming in but obviously have reached the point of market saturation. They'll be bankrupt soon enough, shoulda let them hit the ground when they fell the first time. imho. J

DDZ · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2012, 01:28:26 PM »

Depending on the cost of electricity around $1.80 avg. to charge. Add to the fact that electric costs are going to go up because we can't build nuke plants and EPA regulations are closing so called dirty coal fired plants.
Something GM and the media have been hush hush about is the car under certain conditions will use gas in the battery phase. Also its kept quiet that the gas engine requires premium fuel. So you might save around a couple bucks a day for a car that costs 20K more than car with a gas engine. I'd like to see this thing perform on a 0 degree day? Also the cost would increase to charge it in a cold environment. I guess if someone had the money to sink into this tin can, they probably have a nice heated garage to charge it in.
The batteries are expected to begin depleting before the 8 year 100,000 mile warranty is up. If that is the case GM will being buying replacement batteries at an estimated 8,000 per car. Or if your batteries last a bit past the 8 year 100,000 warranty you will basically have a car valued at no more than the price of scrap.
Just doesn't make much sense to build a car that takes 10-12 hours to charge, that has the equal capacity of a gallon of gas. Don't forget the tax payers are footing the bill for this little experiment. This car is done unless all of a sudden some better technology comes along.

DDZ · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:07:38 PM »

Quote from: JonnyReb on August 28, 2012, 01:04:37 PM

Everything obamas touched is failing and I see the signs of trouble not just with the volt, but with GM itself. A few local dealers are overflowing with cars and have had to rent parking space to hold additional HUNDREDS of vehicles. No surprise but the Freightliner plant(daimler/chrysler) in a neighboring town seems to be doing the same. They pumped up production to appear busy and to keep the union dues coming in but obviously have reached the point of market saturation. They'll be bankrupt soon enough, shoulda let them hit the ground when they fell the first time. imho. J

Exactly right, they should have reaped what they had sown. I figure too that they will be in need of another cash transfusion from the tax payers, and I'm sure our Marxist government will be more than willing to hand it over. Just wait a few more years until Obama's mandate on set pay scales for top positions in the company take their toll. Like design engineers where other auto manufactures will have gobbled up the best talent.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #27 on:** August 29, 2012, 10:11:55 AM »

I think I mentioned this somewhere else, that 85% of Germany's cars are diesel, because they wanted to cut imported oil. Diesel was the easiest and quickest alternative. We should do the same and it would cut about half the imported oil. Germany is now experimenting with flywheel/electric for energy storage and are getting 20% better fuel economy. If this pans out, they will have increased fuel economy by 30% over gasoline by switching to diesel, then once diesel/flywheel takes off, increase another 20%. That is double the fuel economy for about the same cost as a hybrid. Yet, not rare earth lithium, not hard to work on, and flywheels are much simplier than a lithium battery. Germany has and are doing this incrementally and the conversion is at an easier pace and lower cost upgrade each step.

That being said, other than oil and filter changes, are diesels harder to maintain?

DDZ · « **Reply #28 on:** August 29, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »

I wouldn't mind having a diesel car also. That is if the price of fuel oil cost less than it does now. The added fuel mileage for a diesel would not make it cost effective with the price of fuel, and the fact that a diesel motor costs 5K to 7K more, than a gas engine. You can buy a lot of gas for $5000. On a gas car that gets 25mpg and at $3.70 per gal. $5000 will get you around 34,000 miles. If you have a car that gets 30 mpg that same 5K will buy you 40,000 miles.

Diesel engines are easy to maintain. All you have to do is keep the intake filters clean and change the oil, and they about run forever. Diesels are built a lot stronger. The blocks and heads are iron. Not aluminium and other light weight materials gas engines are built from. Diesels have to be built heavier and with better materials, to withstand the high compression needed to ignite the fuel and air mixture. Diesels can way out last gas motors, because diesels run at a lower rpm, but with a higher torque/hp. Fuel oil is more of a lubricant then gas which helps with reduced wear on piston rings. Most diesels have a piston liner pressed into the block. So if you did have to rebuild one a new liner is installed. Compared to boring the block and buying over sized pistons. Of coarse the rest of the car will wear out before you ever wear out a diesel engine.
A diesel is a much better engine. Its why you pay more for them. Every car manufacture makes a car with a diesel, but they are all sold over in Europe, because of the strict EPA standards on emissions. The diesels made today are much cleaner and quieter, but with the EPA nothing is ever clean enough. I would love to have a subaru with their boxer diesel in it, but Subaru says it would cost them millions to make an engine clean enough to satisfy the EPA bureaucracy. Don't know how VW does it. Maybe they spent the millions.
I think natural gas fired engines are the future. Certainly a better future than electric. People would actually buy natural gas fired engines. We just need filling stations. Of coarse the EPA hates fossil fuels. Even clean burning natural gas. Its why government is trying to force electric cars. The problem is people just don't want them.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #29 on:** August 29, 2012, 01:39:08 PM »

Yes, I work in the natural gas industry. We can't get the compressor stations built at local gas stations. The cost of a dedicated natural gas vehicle is about the same as gasoline. This is because on a NGV, you don't have to install a catalytic converter, but that savings is offset by having a high pressure tank like an oxygen or acetylene bottle. It is therefor a wash if we had refueling stations nationwide. You can refuel in about 15 minutes. It is very clean burning, and it costs about $1.84 after adding the tax, per comparable gallon of gas. It isn't imported either. Now to install a compressor station takes a compressor and high pressure storage tanks which cost about $200,000. The compressor is delivered on a flat bed tractor trailer and is about 8' x 20-30'. The tanks and compressor could be installed in below ground pits with covers. We have 3 of the tanks at our station, and they are 4' diameter steel spheres tested at about 7,500 psi, but hold a maximum of 5,000 psi for safety. We have three spheres, and about 25 NGV's including Honda natural gas cars for marketing personnel.