Author Topic: Dictator Base (Read 3038 times)

MKlein · « **on:** September 01, 2012, 03:53:59 AM »

Trying to build an acurate dictator base, is it iron plate and angle or a iron T with plate on both sides. Original photos on the net aren't real clear. Some pictures look like rusted plate on and hollow center on each side. http://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/13-inch-mortars/

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2012, 05:55:33 AM »

Contact Antigue Ordnance Publishers and they can provide detailed drawings at a reasonable price of the Dictator and many other cannons and mortars.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2012, 06:23:11 AM »

Hey Douglas, of course you know that dictators used to be based in Russia, Italy and Germany, but now they've all been put to bed.

Welcome to the forum, sm! Google 13-inch seacoast motar, Dictator mortar, and also Civil War photo sites, and you should be able to turn up some good pictures.

MKlein · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2012, 06:48:57 AM »

Funny
We have dictators in the US too!!!

Greens plans have angle but no angle shown in this picture, you guys are the experts. I could just screw some water pipe to a shoe box and call it a civil war replica of the Dictator and put it on the mantle here in Alabama. Roll tide!!!

"Mortar practice- 13-inch shell mortar, as used by the Federal government- weight of mortar 17,000 pounds." —Leslie, 1896 http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/11200/11245/mortar1_11245.htm

Notice Bolt Pattern vs "Full Size Remake" Attached Pic

OK, Check this out in my own state. I'm embarrassed.
http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=0753be31-30ad-4928-bbd0-7b97a16e0e2b

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2012, 07:00:50 AM »

Yeah, hopefully that's going to change soon.

Dominick is a sponsor here, and he used to make pop can and golf ball versions of the 13-inch seacoast mortar, so he should be able to give you some advice.

MKlein · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2012, 07:08:23 AM »

I'm ready for some change. We got jipped last round and got slugs instead of change. Just wish somebody like Gen Wesley Clark was running.
I'm still drawing it on autocad.
If I take the time to do it I would at least try to make it correct.
Shooting for golf ball size and maybe a smaller version later.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2012, 07:49:12 AM »

Not much, but something.

Edit: The drawing that I had originally posted here was so cheesy, that I removed it for the sake of decency.

This one should at least be a little more useful.

shred · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2012, 02:41:46 PM »

When I was doing my model, it seemed to me (from photos only, no on-site inspection) that the originals were not reinforced with angle a-la the Green plans-- it appeared to me there was an inner and outer sheet on either side, then the edge reinforce pieces connected somehow in the middle.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2012, 03:31:18 PM »

Click on photo no. 3; there appears to be angle iron under the steps.

http://www.hmdb.org/Marker.asp?Marker=22897

Zulu · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »

I have always thought it was an I-beam type setup. Look at this picture .
Zulu

MKlein · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2012, 04:38:24 PM »

1. I agree with Shred it looks like there had to be 2 plates on right and 2 on left with some type spacer in between. That is the reason for all them bolts.

2. As Cannoneer pointed out, you can definately see angle under both sides of each step.

3. It also looks like the bottom flat piece is thicker and wider.

Old Nukee · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2012, 04:45:17 PM »

According to the AOP plans, the shoe iron (base) and cap iron (top) are T-shaped. The cheeks are 1/2 inch thick and bolted to the outside face of the irons. There are a set of internal braces that extend radially from the trunnion seat to the shoe that are bolted to the cheeks. The lower step extends into the bed as a transom, the center transom holds the ratchet fulcrum, and there is a cross bolt at the rear. I count over sixty bolts per side. That, and fitting the braces, would make for a very time consuming build if you want historical accuracy.

MKlein · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2012, 05:07:26 PM »

Here is a pic showing what I think is proof of it being two plates.
I have noticed some trunions have two dimples on them. I'm thinking it is for the thing in the picture, I think it is some sort of aiming device. What is it?

See attached pics

Double D · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2012, 06:55:17 PM »

No old Nukee is right. The cheeks are each one single flat 3 inch thick plate to which is bolted various shoes, braces, caps and transoms.

It is clearly identified in Plan set No 48 from AOP which are copies of the original drawings used to build the orignal guns

shred · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2012, 03:55:22 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on September 01, 2012, 04:18:07 PM

I have always thought it was an I-beam type setup. Look at this picture .
Zulu

Is that an original carriage? IIRC the tube is concrete and the original replica carriage was also: http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pete/dictator.pdf (neat 1930's article about casting the tube & such, including the 90 year old confederate vet from Petersburg that would hike out and pester them)

The odd bolt lines look very much like attachments for internal radial braces. I can't think why you'd add a line of weakness to a solid plate in just the worst spot.
I couldn't find any externally visible flanges bolting the caps on in any pictures I could find when I built my model (which is one solid plate with decorative bolts), so I'm thinking old nukee's two plates bolted together sandwiching the T-caps and internal reinforcements makes sense and goes with the sad picture of the deteriorating mortar (assuming that carriage is also not a replica).

Zulu · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2012, 04:41:07 AM »

shred,
I posted that article about the concrete mortar a while back. It is an interesting story.
I do not know the status of the bed in the picture.
Zulu

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 04, 2012, 06:45:32 PM »

This is a pdf on the conservation of a 15-inch Rodman gun and barbette carriage, but both this gun's top carriage and the 13-inch mortar bed's cheeks are constructed in the same manner.

NOTES ON THE PRESERVATION OF THE 15 INCH RODMAN GUN, TOP CARRIAGE, AND CHASIS .....
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/guis/15_rodman.pdf

P.8, C. "The TOP CARRIAGE: The assembly consists of the following main subassemblies: Two CHEEK ASSEMBLIES of sandwich construction in a general vertical triangular configuration, of which the major components are two sheet metal CHEEK PLATES, inner and outer, right and left. These are bound together around their circumference by “T” shaped FRONT CAPS, REAR CAPS, and at the bottom by SHOE IRONS. At the very top is the loop-shaped TRUNNION BED which receives the TRUNNIONS of the GUN."
Also read pp.10-11 starting with "CHEEK PLATES: There are four CHEEK PLATES in the TOP CARRIAGE."

Skidmark has already posted this site; but you can clearly see the thin outer plate of the beat up Ft. Moultrie mortar bed in the enlarged photo.
Craig Swain's blog: To the Sound of the Guns, Civil War Artillery, Battlefields and Historical Marke
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50467989@N05/5069720652/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Waymarking: The Fort Moultrie mortar from the other side; look at the bottom rear of the cheek. I do believe this is an original bed, and I also think that the second photo skidmark posted in reply # 12 shows the same original bed.
http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=4ec81720-211f-4ecb-a879-e654966524b0

The third photo (enlarged) on this "Hisorical Marker Database" link that I posted before, also clearly shows the two iron plates with the bracing sandwiched in between them (seen from the front).
http://www.hmdb.org/PhotoFullSize.asp?PhotoID=79087

MKlein · « **Reply #17 on:** September 09, 2012, 01:36:28 PM »

Ok still no "Civil War Era" sketch, or photo of what is on the inside and what that thing is mounted on the trunion.

Must be a big mystery. A Big, Real Big Government Secret! I do appreciate all the info and photos everyone has supplied. I must press on and just make my own version. I'm not sure if the lower strap under the trunion is just a piece of flat stap bent to the radius of the trunion or a machined piece. I wish I had more of the document canoneer posted. $:-\$

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** September 09, 2012, 04:43:23 PM »

Why don't you just order the plans from AOP and see what the item is you don't understand?

GGaskill · « **Reply #19 on:** September 09, 2012, 07:20:53 PM »

Yup, AOP No. 41, $15 plus $8 shipping. A bargain at twice the price.

MKlein · « **Reply #20 on:** September 10, 2012, 03:32:03 AM »

Ok, OK, I'll buy the Plans. I know some of you have these plans and won't share the info.
I have never bought from AOR but I will try them and hopefully the Quality will be better than the green plans and also be more detailed.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #21 on:** September 10, 2012, 03:42:37 AM »

AOP plans are exact copies of the original drawings. I have used them for three different carriages, a coehorn mortar, and an eight inch siege mortar.

MKlein · « **Reply #22 on:** September 10, 2012, 04:33:24 AM »

Thanks Artilleryman for the assurance, I have the order ready to send for plans 37 and 41.

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** September 10, 2012, 08:42:04 AM »

I know some of you have these plans and won't share the info.

Yes, some of us have bought the plans and won't give away the info. It's not like they are expensive (you are going to spend a lot more than $23 for materials) and you get more than just a few drawings. Speaking for myself, selling plans is how AOP produces the income to print more plans. They are a mom and pop operation that gets no subsidies from universities or other tax payer supported institutions (like the internet does.) If we give away their plans, they stop producing new ones.

MKlein · « **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2012, 10:07:35 AM »

Good Answer, and I'm fine with supporting other peoples research and hard work. Must be some good people, not some company in China.

Put my order in the mail an hour ago. Looking forward to see the what you guys are talking about.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #25 on:** September 10, 2012, 11:36:57 AM »

I know the person who publishes these plans. He is a good person and has been very helpful to me. He is also the man who was in charge of the long range artillery match at Grayling this year.

little seacoast · « **Reply #26 on:** September 11, 2012, 04:57:09 AM »

I will be spending the first week of October in Charleston SC. If there are any particular portions of the base that you would like pictures of, let me know and I'll photograph them for you. The 13" on the Battery has always been a favorite of mine.

MKlein · « **Reply #27 on:** September 11, 2012, 01:20:47 PM »

Little Seacoast take some close-ups if it is not out of your way. Get one of bottom step where it attaches on the inside. I think it folds up and is bolted to sides. I am doing some Military Duty on Gulf Coast right now. Plan on going to Fort Morgan this week and take some pictures there.

MKlein · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2012, 01:47:52 PM »

Ok, went to Fort Morgan and got eat up by mosquitos.

I originally tried Facebook but now I think Flickr is better for posting photos. I am going to try it. Seems like a good place to put pictures without having to know what everyone is doing every second of their life.

Lets see how this works. Here is the link to a few Cannon and Mortar pics I took.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87356288@N06/sets/72157631562398945/

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #29 on:** September 14, 2012, 08:26:10 PM »

Nice pictures. Thank you for posting them to the FB.