Author Topic: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye  (Read 2336 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TM7

  • Guest
Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« on: September 01, 2012, 08:05:43 AM »
FYI......seems like fairly accurate account. Plus #11>>RTBA......TM7
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
.
AlterNet   
.
          /               By Richard (R.J.) Eskowcomments_image398 COMMENTS
.
Goodbye, Liberty! 10 Ways Americans Are No Longer Free
.
Our struggle for liberty is a fight against concentrated wealth
.
.
.August 29, 2012  |     
.
Like this article?Join our email list:Stay up to date with the latest headlines via email.      Our most fundamental rights, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, are under assault. But the adversary is Big Wealth, not Big Government as conservatives like to claim. Consider:
Life? The differences in life expectancy between wealthier and lower-income Americans are increasing, not decreasing.
Liberty? Digital corporations are assaulting our privacy, while banks trap us in indebtedness that approaches indentured servitude. The shrunken ranks of working Americans are being robbed of their essential liberties – including the right to use the bathroom.
The pursuit of happiness? Social mobility in the United States is dead. Career choices are increasingly limited. As for working hard and earning more, consider this: Between 1969 and 2008 the average US income went up by $11,684. How much of that went to the top 10? All of it. Income for the remaining 90 percent actually went down.
These changes didn't just happen. Wealthy individuals and corporations made it happen – and they're still at it. Meanwhile, Corporate America's wholesale theft of your individual liberties has been rebranded as a fight for … the corporation's individual liberty.
Corey Robin notes in the Nation that this conservative appeal to “economic freedom” has been met by Democrats who present themselves as “new Victorians,” standing for “responsibilities over rights, safety over freedom, constraint rather than counterculture.”
Not only is this politically and emotionally unappealing, it's demonstrably wrong.  The Merriam-Webster Dictionary's definition of a “right” is “something to which one has a just claim: as the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled.” Definitions of “liberty” include “the power to do as one pleases,” “freedom from arbitrary or despotic control,” “the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges,” and “the power of choice.”
Is that how you feel when you're dealing with your bank?
While the Right portrays popularly elected government as a faceless oppressor, large corporations and ultra-wealthy individuals – what we're calling “Big Wealth” -- are trampling on our individual rights and liberties every day. We should be fighting for “economic freedom,” as Corey Robin notes, and explaining how Big Wealth is crushing other fundamental liberties as well.
Here are 10 critical examples, drawn from the headlines and from our everyday lives.
1. Our American liberties end at the workplace door.
If you have a job, the Freedom Train stops at the workplace door. More employees are hired on a part-time or temporary basis to deny them rights and benefits. Many of your privacy rights are gone. Your employer can use your company computer to read your correspondence, and your company cell phone (if you have one) to track your movements.
Free speech? You can be fired for expressing political views online, even when you're not at work. As employment lawyer Mark Trapp told Bloomberg Business Week, the“freedom to speak your mind doesn’t really exist in work spaces.” Or, in some cases, outside it.
The longstanding right of workers to organize and form a union is also under assault. A corporate-funded group called ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, is coordinating the loss of union rights for public employees. Governors and legislators are using budget shortfalls created by corporate misbehavior and tax cuts for the wealthy to argue that governments can no longer afford to honor union contracts.
Your rights don't even begin where your, er, bathroom breaks begin. As Mary Williams Walsh reported in the New York Times, “employees at lower rungs of the economic ladder can be timed with stopwatches in the bathroom; stonewalled when they ask to go; given disciplinary points for frequent urination; even hunted down by supervisors with walkie-talkies if they tarry in the stalls.”
2. We're losing our “right to life” in many different ways--from birth through old age.
It's always striking when some of those who defend an unborn child's “right to life” ignore the fact that the United States ranks 49th in infant mortality, according to the latest statistics. Or in the fact that African American infant mortality is 2.5 that of Caucasians. Or that lower-income families of all ethnicities suffer much greater infant mortality in this country than their wealthier counterparts.
The next time you see another story about impoverished North Koreans and their seemingly mad dedication to their deluded leader and outmoded economic system, consider this: The average life expectancy for an African American in New Orleans is roughly the same asthat of a North Korean. It's shorter than that of people in Colombia, Venezuela, of Vietnam. In our nation's capital, the life expectancy gap between African American and white males is more than 13 years.
For poor whites the story isn't much better. A 2005 study showed that life expectancy for poor white males in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley is roughly the same as that of males in Mexico and Panama. They can expect to live nearly four and a half years less than average white male nationwide. Opportunities for an affordable education are disappearing -- and education correlates closely with longevity.
Then there's Medicare. Studies showed that mortality among Americans aged 65 and older decreased by 13 percent after Medicare was created, and they spent 13 percent fewer days in the hospital. The corporate-funded right is sponsoring a plan to replace Medicare with a voucher system that will provide less coverage for older Americans' healthcare with each passing year. They also want to raise its eligibility age. The studies show that these proposals would result in increased loss of life and more hospital days for older Americans.
3. We've lost autonomy over our own bodies.
While Tea Partiers and Sarah Palin prattle about “death panels,” many injured or ailing Americans enter a Kafka-esque maze of insurance executives, case managers, billing services, and customer service numbers with interminable hold times. Some of these processes were created as a legitimate response to physician overtreatment, itself encouraged by our privatized education and health financing systems. But they've turned into massive operations for delaying, frustrating, and thwarting attempts by patients and doctors to receive permission to provide necessary services.
Millions of Americans have to plead for needed treatment, then argue over a complex and error-prone system of copayments, deductibles, and medical bills denied for payment with incomprehensible explanations. If they're unable to devote hours to battling their insurer, or if they try and fail, they may then find themselves at the mercy of medical debt collectors whose own actions have been the subject of legal scrutiny and public criticism.
Long-standing assumptions built into our medical system deny virtually all Americans the right to affordable dental care, which is available in most other developed countries, while an antiquated and Puritanical attitude toward mental illness has been exploited to deny them adequate care for these conditions.
The right is attacking Medicare, one of our most popular government programs, and defending one of our nation's least popular institutions, HMOs. In fighting for Medicare Advantage's HMO subsidies and resisting wider access to public health insurance, they're using the language of freedom to rob Americans of the freedom to make their own medical decisions.
There are treatments which have unproven value, have unpleasant side effects, or which studies have shown to be over-used to provide financial gain to medical providers. People have a right to know that, and to be protected from this kind of abuse. But the denial of covered services is an epidemic in American healthcare – and a massive assault on American freedom.
4. We're losing the ability to rise up from poverty, earn a decent living, or work in the career of our choice.
The periodic economic shocks caused by our banking system allowed employers to demand wage concessions while paying ever-increasing salaries and bonuses to their senior executives. The power of unions has been systematically eroded. The drive to provide ever-increasing tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans has led to a decline government jobs, which has shriveled job opportunities in many lines of work.
The key to social mobility is education, and that doorway to opportunity has been steadily closing. A study from the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education showed that, as the University of Virginia's Miller Center puts it, “Since the mid-1980s the costs of higher education in America have steadily shifted from the taxpayer to the student and family.”
The study shows that during a period when median family income rose by 147%, college tuition and fees rose 439%. That's a tripling of education costs, in real dollar terms. The impact has been greatest on lower-income families. As the New York Times notes: “Among the poorest families — those with incomes in the lowest 20 percent — the net cost of a year at a public university was 55 percent of median income, up from 39 percent in 1999-2000. At community colleges, long seen as a safety net, that cost was 49 percent of the poorest families’ median income last year, up from 40 percent in 1999-2000.”
Some career options aren't even available anymore. Want to be a writer or reporter? Nearly 4,000 jobs in this area will disappear in this decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. A teacher? They're cutting those jobs back to help pay for tax cuts for the wealthy. Post Office employee? Ditto. The death of American manufacturing means that lower-income young people can't move into the middle class. Working-class kids can't even follow in their parents' blue-collar footsteps. They're falling behind their parents.
Those who have jobs find it increasingly impossible to lead a decent life. The US has a much higher percentage of low-income workers than most other developed countries. The New America Foundation observed that the share of middle-income jobs in this country has fallen from 52 percent to 42 percent since 1980, while the share of low-income jobs rose from 30 percent t0 41 percent. The fundamental rights we were told we had as Americans – to choose our careers, find a job, and live a decent life if we worked hard – are disappearing rapidly.
5. We no longer have the right to personal time.
Most developed nations recognize that the right to the "pursuit of happiness” includes the ability to enjoy leisure time – in the evenings, on weekends, and on vacation. But each of these rights is being lost to the systematic reversal of gains that Americans first started making in the 19th century.
The US is one of the few developed nations that doesn't require employers to offer paid vacation time to their employees. Employees are increasingly unable to take the vacation time they've been promised. A survey published last May showed that many employees find it difficult to take vacation time. Some said there's nobody to cover for them because of staff cutbacks. Others said they couldn't afford it, the result of the same wage stagnation which has enriched their bosses. Still more said they felt pressure from the boss not to take any time off.
A long-term study of 12,000 men with heart disease showed that those who took vacations lived longer. In a society where fewer and fewer people can take time off, that means more people are literally “working themselves to death.”
And it's not just vacations, either. As Michael Janati noted in the Washington Times, “Americans are working approximately 11 more hours per week now than they did in the 1970’s, yet the average income for middle-income families has declined by 13% (when adjusting for inflation).” Employers routinely use email and phone calls to intrude on workers' off hours.
Want to know what indentured servitude looks like? Look around.
6. We can't negotiate as free people with banks or corporations.
The buyer/seller relationship is no longer a transaction between free equals. Corporations routinely deprive us of vital information when we enter into a business relationship with them, aided by weak regulations and lax enforcement. Banks frequently hide balloon payments and other key loan provisions in complex and unreadable documents, for example, while bankers misrepresent the terms of the loan.
Many types of corporations are allowed to operate in as monopolies or near-monopolies, including cable television operators and health insurers. (Blue Cross of Alabama, for example, provides 90 percent of the health insurance coverage in the city of Birmingham.)
The combination of decepting marketing and near-monopoly situations destroys the “free market,” by any technical definition of the term. It denies us our freedom of choice and deprives us of our ability to negotiate our own contracts. And yet there's been a deafening silence from the libertarian movement, which has been commandeered by the Cato Institute and other institutions financed and controlled by large corporate interests.
Nowhere is our loss of liberty more apparent than in the banking industry, where MERS -- the Mortgage Electronic Registration Systems – deprives Americans citizens and the courts of the ability to know who holds their mortgages or the terms of that contract. Total household debt is nearly 12 trillion dollars. Americans now owe more in student loans than they do on their credit cards, and new evidence shows that banks have been resorting to the same illegal tactics to collect credit card debt that they used on mortgages.
Want to fight back? You've lost that right. Banks control FICO and other credit-scoring agencies. Corporations walk away from bad loan deals with their banks all the time, or threaten to walk, simply because that loan is no longer in their financial interest. But even when bank customers were deceived by their banks, they have little recourse. If they don't pay back that unjust loan their credit scores will plunge and they'll lose their ability to borrow money, rent an apartment, even to get a job.
And it's not just banks. Corporations have used media manipulation and corrupted arbitration clauses to rob Americans of the right to sue even when they or their loved ones have been robbed, maimed, or kill by corporate greed and neglect. Instead, Americans have been forced to accept “arbitration clauses” from monopolistic forces that are heavily weighted in favor of the corporation. If they don't they're likely to be deprived of critical services like banking, power, and communications.
7. We're losing our right to live or travel where we want.
There are 16 million underwater homes in the United States, housing some 40 million people. These homeowners owe an estimated $1.2 trillion in “underwater” real estate value that disappeared when the housing bubble burst.
The bankers to whom they owe than money created the bubble, and were wealthy beyond measure when it burst. These homeowners have been left holding the bag – and the debt, owed to the very people who misled them into taking out mortgages. The deception often included forgeries, lies about the loan's terms, and filing of false information.
While they pay these unjust debts – or foreclose and face the consequences of that action – these homeowners have lost the right to relocate to another town or city, even if they want to move in search of jobs that many of them lost after the bank-spawned financial crisis. Their debts make that impossible. Like citizens in the Soviet state, they must first ask permission of a cold and powerful bureaucracy – except that in their case its their bank, not the State.
We're told that the early Bolsheviks charged prisoners' families for the bullets used to execute them. Americans are paying to prop up the banks that oppress them – through their taxes and their inflated debts. Meanwhile, many of these wealthy bankers in gated enclaves behind fences and guards. Would you like to get a glimpse of their lavish homes? You can't.
8. We've lost our right to privacy.
The CEOs of Facebook and Google have both said essentially the same thing: The age of privacy has ended. Get over it.
Privacy is supposed to be an essential right. Yet Americans who claim they'd defend it to the death cheerfully sacrifice it every day to play Mafia Wars. Or to search for a celebrity. Or to connect with high school classmates they never really liked anyway.
Internet companies sell our personal data for profit, often by using cookies on our computers to track our activity. Facebook sold users' video rental records. Google pulled Americans' personal information via WiFi when it created Street View. Apple iPhones were tracking and storing their owners' movements.
The government is already using corporate data, sometimes without subpoenas. Corporations have voluntarily allowed the government to use their technology to spy on citizens, included one reported case where the government placed a spy server at an ATT location to track the activities of its subscribers. There's a lot more that we don't know.
We were taught that a person' home is his or her castle. But our electronic devices have breached the castle walls, and have placed spies in our living rooms, dens … and bedrooms. Americans, especially conservatives, should be demanding that corporations give us back our privacy rights.
9. We're losing our right to participate in our society as informed citizens.
As Bill Moyers observed, “In 1984 the number of companies owning a controlling interest in America's media was 50 -- today that number is six.” Largely as a result of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 – a Republican bill signed by Democratic President Bill Clinton – this has eliminated many dissenting voices from the mainstream media and left a shockingly uniform political consensus in our media.
Polling shows that online media have increasingly overtaken newspapers as a source of information. But they also show that the vast majority of Americans still follow the news through television, which -- when combined with newspapers and radio -- means that corporate media still shapes our perception of current events. And their consensus can become positively Orwellian.
Tens of thousands of demonstrators took to the streets for the 2001 inauguration of George W. Bush, only to be subject to an almost-complete news media blackout. An estimated one million demonstrators jammed the streets of cities in the United States and worldwide on February 15, 2003, to protest the invasion of Iraq. But their presence was either ignored by the mainstream media or subject to an artificial illusion of “balance” through the extensive cutaway shots to pro-war supporters than often numbered in no more than the dozens.
Even more Orwellian is the sight of reporters at news outlets like the Washington Post – which has outsourced much of its financial reporting to an organization run by right-wing billionaire Pete Peterson – to use labels such as “extreme” and “fringe” to describe politicians and organizations who are advocated for policies which in some cases are supported by 75 or 80 percent of all Americans. This creates a false reality which supports our final loss of freedom:
10. We're losing the right to representative democracy.
On issue after issue, the wishes of most Americans are ignored or marginalized by the nation's political and media elite. Views that are held by most Republicans – and in some cases even by most Tea Party members – are dismissed as “extreme” inside the Beltway. While 75 percent of most Americans and 76 percent of Tea Party supporters opposed Social Security cuts to balance the budget, leaders in both political parties were meeting to negotiate those cuts. (They were scuttled by a fallout between President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner; similar cuts were being negotiated between Speaker Newt Gingrich and President Bill Clinton when the Monica Lewinsky scandal erupted.)
Most Americans want tighter control on US banks, and that's considered politically impossible. They want much higher taxes for millionaires, which is also dismissed. Meanwhile, the nation continues to pursue policies that benefit the most unpopular institutions in the nation, according to that Gallup poll: big corporations, HMOs, and Wall Street banks. The only thing on Gallup's list that's more unpopular than these three institutions? Congress.
The Cause of Liberty
We need to take back the language of freedom. Freedom's struggle is the struggle against Big Wealth. That's the right argument, and it's a winning argument. As John Adams said many years ago:
“Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty. There is in human nature a resentment of injury, and indignation against wrong ... If the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling the differences between true and false, right and wrong, virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of mankind apply ....”
In the words of Corey Robin, “It’s long past time for us to start talking and arguing about ... the principle of freedom.”

Offline Empty Quiver

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2847
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »
I can only agree. Though some points are a bit overstated, they are only so because they havn't been given time to blossom, I fear.
 
The economic freedom to tell the world to go pound sand has been and is being removed. I do believe that is at the heart of this. It is what our founders recognised as fundamental to the freedoms we enjoy
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline twoshooter

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Gender: Male
  • Remember the Starfish......
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 05:18:59 PM »
The sad thing is that they are not being "taken" from us, we are rushing to trade them away. A Jacob and Esau story, I guess some things are forever.....
1000 years ago Men KNEW the Earth was the center of the Universe.....500 years ago Men KNEW the world was flat....... 15 minutes ago you KNEW man was alone in the universe.... Just IMAGINE what we will know tomorrow !! "K"- from Men in Black.

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 11:19:39 AM »
I don't think I agree with any of that.  The rights most people think they have, they don't.  Few things are "rights." 
1. What you get out of your employer does not come to you because you have a right to it.  Go to work, do your job, and do whatever it is you were hired to do.  You've no right to expect anything other than pay. 
2. Americans live longer now than ever before.  Old folks are taken care of. 
3. I have affordable dental care and I'm middle class.  I have affordable health insurance.  Try living where health care is free but your tax rate is 50% and the health care is almost non-existent. 
4. Rise up from poverty?  How the heck do you get into poverty in the first place?  If you're there, it's your own fault. 
5. Right to personal time?  You havae a RIGHT to vacation time? 
6.   Why do you need to know, or have a RIGHT to know, who holds your mortgage.  You're the one that signed the mortgage agreement.  You don't have a right to dictate how lending institutions manage their businesses.  Just pay your dern house payment on time, like you agreed to do.
7.  I don't even understand this one.  Right to travel?  Where did we get that right?  If you owe too much money, you are the one that borrowed it.  If a borrower's house is underwater, it's because he tried to have more than he could afford, or he's too sorry to keep up the payments.  How terrible for him that he can't buy an airplane ticket to go on vacation.
8. Don't put your private information on the Internet if you want privacy. 
9. You ain't got no right to be informed.  It would be nice if the media would tell the truth, but they are not damaging your rights by lying and slanting the truth.
10.  If the media lies or ignores important issues, your rights have not been touched.  Representative democracy is very real.  Don't forget that the idiots America voted for are all we from the voters are idiots themselves. 
I was recently warned to not respond to such topics as these, that they are bait to get me riled and say something that will get me banned.  I thought I could, but when crap like this comes up, my typing fingers seem to have a mind of their own. 
Just so I won't get banned because of this response, I would like to point out I have not directed any hateful or hurtful comment to anyone.  Just a response to show the other side of a pile of crap where the grass is greener.   

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 11:40:23 AM »
No, sir.  I don't rat on anyone. 

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4695
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »
Bravo Mike.  That article was a pure pile of liberal nonsense.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 07:46:45 AM »
The article might contain a bit of BS , but Mike you need to consider a few facts , Your home being under water is not your being able to afford it . It means you owe more than its worth. Here we got educated fast. The market dropped and house sales dropped. To keep building here the cost of homes was reduced . In one example the cost of a new home dropped over 50 thousand dollars . It was the same house with the same options that sold for 450 thousand only a few days before. So new home owner was upside down over night . How was it his fault ?
When you go to work you do so for pay, be it money or benifits and you have a right to collect.
As for a morage you should know who holds it why not ? Who furnishes the paper work when its paid off ? Suppose there is a conflict ? Its not a pipeline you pour cash . Its a business deal and both parties should be known. Some of the foreclosures were done with out paper work. is that fair ? BTW the morage co signed also  ;)
Right to be informed , so we are to vote in people with no knowlege of what they do ? toi send in tax payments with out knowing it is being spent correctly ?
poverty , so no one is born into it ? think wealfare ..............
I won't go on it makes my brain hurt .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4695
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 10:15:12 AM »
Quote
So new home owner was upside down over night . How was it his fault ?

 
 
Perhaps because he bought too much house in a high flying market, borrowed too much and put too little down.
 
 
 
Quote
As for a morage you should know who holds it why not ?

 
 
 
Because the mortgage documents indicate that they may be assigned by the mortgage holder, AND there is nothing that states that the identity of who it is sold to must be provided to the borrower.  If it's not in the agreement, it is not part of the agreement.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 01:28:57 PM »
 8)
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 01:30:58 PM »
No, sir.  I don't think people who are underwater on their home are blameless.  They had no "right" to an escalating market when they borrowed too much.  They didn't even have a right to the loan itself.  When it was approved, they should have considered the possibilities.  All that are underwater were greedy to start with.  They wanted a nice home they could barely make the payments on in the beginning.  Like any other investment, you live with what you buy.  I don't know why people can't look at history and consider what might happen again. 
As for knowing who holds your mortgage, you signed something acknowledging that it could be transferred.  If you didn't and it gets transferred, nothing illegal has occurred.  However, you certainly would be advised who holds the lien.  If you were not, you wouldn't know where to send the payments. 
My point is that living in America does not give us rights that are not specifically written into law.  We may want more rights, but we don't have them.  We can pursue changes in different ways, but your actual rights are specific and limited.  I think liberals see things differently; they want everything and they want it free and they think someone owes it to them.
With all that said, my own home is not far from being worth less in the current market than I have in it.  I tried to sell it a year ago for what the realtor said it was worth.  I got no bites.  I'm not blameless.  When I bought it new, I was in better health, but now it's difficult for me to maintain it.  I'm stuck with what I have.  But I won't whine about it or think I've been somehow stepped on or that my rights have been violated.  Stuff happens, but it's seldom the fault of someone else. 

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 01:37:43 PM »
Yeah, we got it casull....it's called 'gotcha capitalism'...........nice, huh??  ::) ,


.
.
.
....TM7
So let me see if I get this right?
Congress sets oversight on may of the coperations that deal with banking.
And the housing failure was based on Congress and Barney Frank thinking the banks owed minorities houses and demaded in the law that they make loans that noone could or would repay.  Epic fail was through a Liberal Democrat and his law.
The war on the rich only hurts the poor and makes it impossible for people to move up.
As the rich are heavily taxed and their disposable income is deminished they tend to spend less.  Again hurting the service industry in reduction in sales and tips.  Copmanies selling less get rid of the entry level positions first.  Again hurting the "little guy"
As taxes are increased it increases prices, a sale price is the cost of the good or service plus profit = sale price as taxes go up it adds costs driving prices up.  And may of you liberals want to yell about the profits but that is what is taxed, so if there are no profits then there are no taxes.
Also many retired people gain their incomes, through investments, either 401K, Stocks, or pension plans all relying on profits of companies to pay them.  Demisishing profits hurts the elderly and retired people in shrinking income and raising prices.
So the war on the rich may make you feel good for socking it to the rich but it is hurting the service industry, driving up prices, reducing profits, eliminating entry level jobs and making grandmom deside if she wants here medicine or food for the week?
So go ahead and rant about the private sector you are misinformed and should be ranting, and yelling about the liberals and their war on the poor.

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4695
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 01:39:55 PM »
Quote
Yeah, we got it casull....it's called 'gotcha capitalism'...........nice, huh??

 
 
 
It's only called "gotcha capitalism" by you, tm, and those twisted others that think the rich are somehow evil simply because they're rich.  To the vast majority of thinking individuals it's called "basic contract law" or "taking responsiblity for your own agreements".    ::)
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 01:52:01 PM »
The only right I see us loosing is the right to free speach.
The right to free speach is to beable to say what you want, not to be heard and obeyed.
The right to free speach depends on an unbiased press to educate and inform the readers.
The right to free speach requires a an exchange of ideas.
In todays America the Left demands to be heard,
The left uses the press to promote their ideas and does not refute their failed policies.
and the left allows free speach as long as you agree with them, if not they make fun of you, challange your linage, and shout you down.
The left can not have a free exchange of ideas as they are always proven wrong and their failed economic ideas only cause more misery for the people they say there are there to protect.
As the first amendment is abolished all the others will follow.
There is a very thin line bewteen Liberal and dictator.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 01:35:30 AM »
No, sir.  I don't think people who are underwater on their home are blameless.  They had no "right" to an escalating market when they borrowed too much.Who borrowed to much ? They got it covered the problem is after they pay for it it is worth less than what it cost to start with. I really don't see your point the home owner is the loser.  They didn't even have a right to the loan itself. Why not ? When it was approved, they should have considered the possibilities.So you seem to know the future in banking ? If so why didn't you let us all know ?   All that are underwater were greedy to start with. Now that is wrong ! show proof of that , I know people who are under water and making payments They wanted a nice home they could barely make the payments on in the beginning.Not true at all they are making payments   Like any other investment, you live with what you buy.Yes they are   I don't know why people can't look at history and consider what might happen again. Well many trust the govt. to look out for their intrest and protect from poor lending , price gourging etc. you know the things govt. is suppose to do.
As for knowing who holds your mortgage, you signed something acknowledging that it could be transferred.  If you didn't and it gets transferred, nothing illegal has occurred.  However, you certainly would be advised who holds the lien.  If you were not, you wouldn't know where to send the payments.  You do realize many morgage co's use collection agencies to collect payment on their behalf.
My point is that living in America does not give us rights that are not specifically written into law.  We may want more rights, but we don't have them.  We can pursue changes in different ways, but your actual rights are specific and limited.  I think liberals see things differently; they want everything and they want it free and they think someone owes it to them.
With all that said, my own home is not far from being worth less in the current market than I have in it.  I tried to sell it a year ago for what the realtor said it was worth.  I got no bites.  I'm not blameless.  When I bought it new, I was in better health, but now it's difficult for me to maintain it.  I'm stuck with what I have.  But I won't whine about it or think I've been somehow stepped on or that my rights have been violated.  Stuff happens, but it's seldom the fault of someone else.
Up side down isn't about rights it's about a market condition .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 03:31:25 AM »
SHOOTALL - I'm not an attorney, or a tax expert, or a realtor.  I don't know much about the mortgage industry.  But to clarify a bit if I might.  I say you don't have a right to a mortgage because there is no such right in existence.  At least not one that I've ever heard of.  It's the same thing as not having a right to enter Wal-Mart.  You can go there because it's open to the public.  But no specific right exists that says you can.  If the Wal-Mart greeter says, "Get the heck out of this store," we gotta leave.  We can contest such things as that and win, but it's not because our rights were violated. 
No, of course I don't know the future of banking.  I meant only that it's up to us to not buy too much. 
What the gov't is supposed to do is run the Post Office and provide protection.  Many do trust the gov't to look out for them in other regards, but they should not be that trusting, IMO.   
I reckon this sounds like I'm arguing with you; your the last person I want to offend.  I respect all your posts because they always seem on target.  Consider my position on "rights" as just my opinion, which I really have to work on keeping under control. 
Respectfully, Mike
 

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 04:02:41 AM »
SHOOTALL - I'm not an attorney, or a tax expert, or a realtor.  I don't know much about the mortgage industry.  But to clarify a bit if I might.  I say you don't have a right to a mortgage because there is no such right in existence.I would say if you meet the requirements like others you do have a right to recieve one if others do.   At least not one that I've ever heard of.  It's the same thing as not having a right to enter Wal-Mart.  You can go there because it's open to the public.  But no specific right exists that says you can.Better check on that one  If the Wal-Mart greeter says, "Get the heck out of this store," we gotta leave.That could cause a law suit if you had not caused trouble or were in the act of unacceptable behavior( note some walmart people pictures)  We can contest such things as that and win, but it's not because our rights were violated.  Then on what basis was the case brough before the court ?
No, of course I don't know the future of banking.  I meant only that it's up to us to not buy too much.  I agree with this 100%
What the gov't is supposed to do is run the Post Office and provide protection.  Many do trust the gov't to look out for them in other regards, but they should not be that trusting, IMO.   They regulate business and banking legal or not .
I reckon this sounds like I'm arguing with you; your the last person I want to offend.  I respect all your posts because they always seem on target.  Consider my position on "rights" as just my opinion, which I really have to work on keeping under control.  And I don't care to offend another Virgina resident . I just see the topic very close to home and wouldn't want all under water to be painted with a wide brush. The govt. forced loans that cause a least part of our banking trouble are not the same in all cases. BTW the housing industry helped cause part of the problem by inflatinf prices with out value , see the post about dropping cost 50 thousand over night . How do you do that and stay in business ? Well they tried to squeeze it out of sub contractors but it was not there. So they settled for less proffit. There ar home builders that won't accept a change orter for less than $1200.00 or when we charge $300 for and up grade they pass it on for $800 and so on. The value was not in the house to start with but some home owner was paying for 30 years .
Respectfully, Mike
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Online darkgael

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1656
  • The readiness is all. 4049 posts from the “old” gb
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 10:10:40 AM »
Mike:
Quote
I don't think I agree with any of that.  The rights most people think they have, they don't.  Few things are "rights." 



1. What you get out of your employer does not come to you because you have a right to it.  Go to work, do your job, and do whatever it is you were hired to do.  You've no right to expect anything other than pay. 
2. Americans live longer now than ever before.  Old folks are taken care of. 
3. I have affordable dental care and I'm middle class.  I have affordable health insurance.  Try living where health care is free but your tax rate is 50% and the health care is almost non-existent. 
4. Rise up from poverty?  How the heck do you get into poverty in the first place?  If you're there, it's your own fault. 
5. Right to personal time?  You havae a RIGHT to vacation time? 
6.   Why do you need to know, or have a RIGHT to know, who holds your mortgage.  You're the one that signed the mortgage agreement.  You don't have a right to dictate how lending institutions manage their businesses.  Just pay your dern house payment on time, like you agreed to do.
7.  I don't even understand this one.  Right to travel?  Where did we get that right?  If you owe too much money, you are the one that borrowed it.  If a borrower's house is underwater, it's because he tried to have more than he could afford, or he's too sorry to keep up the payments.  How terrible for him that he can't buy an airplane ticket to go on vacation.
8. Don't put your private information on the Internet if you want privacy. 
9. You ain't got no right to be informed.  It would be nice if the media would tell the truth, but they are not damaging your rights by lying and slanting the truth.
10.  If the media lies or ignores important issues, your rights have not been touched.  Representative democracy is very real.  Don't forget that the idiots America voted for are all we from the voters are idiots themselves. 
I was recently warned to not respond to such topics as these, that they are bait to get me riled and say something that will get me banned.  I thought I could, but when crap like this comes up, my typing fingers seem to have a mind of their own. 
Just so I won't get banned because of this response, I would like to point out I have not directed any hateful or hurtful comment to anyone.  Just a response to show the other side of a pile of crap where the grass is greener.   



+1 about that. People get into financial trouble and it is "somebody else's fault." At the risk of generalizing, there are too many people who feel that they are owed something when they are not. That comment about what a person should rightfully expect from a job is right on.
Free speech endangered......we are here aren't we? We have the right to say what we will here and other where. There has never been a guarantee that anyone will listen.
In debt.....don't borrow. It burns me when people complain about their bills....you bought the stuff, now you gotta pay for it. Interest rates on that credit card too high.... Maybe you didn't read the fine print.
The wealthy cause all of our problems. They should pay more? Why? Because they can afford to, is that it? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Straight from Karl Marx.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 10:16:48 AM »
Mike:
Quote
I don't think I agree with any of that.  The rights most people think they have, they don't.  Few things are "rights." 



1. What you get out of your employer does not come to you because you have a right to it.  Go to work, do your job, and do whatever it is you were hired to do.  You've no right to expect anything other than pay. 
2. Americans live longer now than ever before.  Old folks are taken care of. 
3. I have affordable dental care and I'm middle class.  I have affordable health insurance.  Try living where health care is free but your tax rate is 50% and the health care is almost non-existent. 
4. Rise up from poverty?  How the heck do you get into poverty in the first place?  If you're there, it's your own fault. 
5. Right to personal time?  You havae a RIGHT to vacation time? 
6.   Why do you need to know, or have a RIGHT to know, who holds your mortgage.  You're the one that signed the mortgage agreement.  You don't have a right to dictate how lending institutions manage their businesses.  Just pay your dern house payment on time, like you agreed to do.
7.  I don't even understand this one.  Right to travel?  Where did we get that right?  If you owe too much money, you are the one that borrowed it.  If a borrower's house is underwater, it's because he tried to have more than he could afford, or he's too sorry to keep up the payments.  How terrible for him that he can't buy an airplane ticket to go on vacation.
8. Don't put your private information on the Internet if you want privacy. 
9. You ain't got no right to be informed.  It would be nice if the media would tell the truth, but they are not damaging your rights by lying and slanting the truth.
10.  If the media lies or ignores important issues, your rights have not been touched.  Representative democracy is very real.  Don't forget that the idiots America voted for are all we from the voters are idiots themselves. 
I was recently warned to not respond to such topics as these, that they are bait to get me riled and say something that will get me banned.  I thought I could, but when crap like this comes up, my typing fingers seem to have a mind of their own. 
Just so I won't get banned because of this response, I would like to point out I have not directed any hateful or hurtful comment to anyone.  Just a response to show the other side of a pile of crap where the grass is greener.   



+1 about that. People get into financial trouble and it is "somebody else's fault." At the risk of generalizing, there are too many people who feel that they are owed something when they are not. That comment about what a person should rightfully expect from a job is right on. A job is a contract and the worker has a right to expect what was promised at time of employment . Company has the same expectation.
Free speech endangered......we are here aren't we? We have the right to say what we will here and other where. There has never been a guarantee that anyone will listen.
In debt.....don't borrow. It burns me when people complain about their bills....you bought the stuff, now you gotta pay for it. Interest rates on that credit card too high.... Maybe you didn't read the fine print.
The wealthy cause all of our problems. They should pay more? Why? Because they can afford to, is that it? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Straight from Karl Marx.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 12:36:37 PM »
I think I've been unclear.  This started with the term "rights" in the heading.  It's plain to me that SHOOTALL knows a heck more about finances and banks than I.  So, here's an easy way to get around my dribble to see what I'm really trying to say.
If you used a pencil and wrote a list of all the actual rights you have as an American, you'd have to exclude things like the right to go on vacation.  Just our stated rights goes on the list.  Most rights are assumed, and we get on fine most of the time.  On your list, you wouldn't write "Right to obtain a mortgage."  The things you would write would be like "Right to bear arms, right to a speedy trial, right to an attorney."  You would not list the "right to have a pet."  If you look at it from the other side, the side that tells us what we CANNOT do, you'd see the list of American rights is not all that lengthy.  Many more rights than other nations, still limited. 
Back to the mortgage thing.  2 men of the same sex, religion and race go in for a house loan and see the same banker on the same day.  Both men's credit are perfect.  One gets the loan, the other is denied.  The denied man screams "That ain't right," and he would be correct, but it's also correct that he has no American right to have a loan just because someone else got one.  He can take the bank to court and win, but he won't be able to produce as evidence a document that gave him a "right" to get a loan.  Maybe the banker had a limit of loans he could give out that month and so one man got the last one.  Or who knows what the reason was.  A matter for lawyers an courts. 
It's the same with jobs.  If I wanted to be a grocery clerk and didn't make it, the grocer did not violate any specific right that the government gave me.  Make no mistake.  All real rights come from the government.  What we have a legal right to do or have here is not the same in other countries.  Not to be confused with privilege.  Lets take it a little further.  As extreme as this sounds, we don't have a right to have children.  Not a legal right.  But that doesn't make it illegal.  It's just not a thing that would come up.  (Maybe in China.)  This country is falling on it's butt, and that's really bad.  The gov't restrictions on banks and everything else they can get their hands into is failing.  But that's a whole other matter than acting on rights we don't have.   

Offline joeinwv

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 105
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
Upside down is merely a financial term.

Regardless of price, a purchase is made when a buyer agrees to pay a seller for something. It stands to reason that at the time the agreement is made, the buyer feels that they are paying a fair price for the item received. (Otherwise, why purchase it?)

If on Monday you buy a house that you like and think is a fair deal for $450k - just because it appraises for less at a later date - that does not change that you thought it a fair deal when you made the original agreement. It also does not change your ability to honor that agreement - make the payments as scheduled and live in your house.

The problem occurs when people want to refinance their loan or make a sale prior to the end of their mortgage. If you are speculating on real estate being a high yield / short term investment - you had better be very market savvy.

If my house lost $50k in value tomorrow, I would be happy. Since I intend to honor the terms of my mortgage, I can easily continue to make my payments and enjoy lower property taxes.
<funny>

Offline Mike in Virginia

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 02:56:23 AM »
Yes, the real value of your home is not all about money.  Even if it's worse less than it was 2 years go, it's still your home.  If you were willing to pay for it at the beginning, you are still so inclined. 

Online darkgael

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1656
  • The readiness is all. 4049 posts from the “old” gb
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2012, 07:03:41 AM »
Ten vanishing freedoms.....freedom. What does it really mean? I suspect that if I were to ask ten people I would get ten slightly different and very generalized definitions, definitions that wouldn't be correct in every application.
Free speech.....can you say anything that you want without fear of reprisal? No.
Are there speed limits on our roads? Yes....limits.
Do we get to keep every cent we make?.....no, even if we don't want to pay taces, there is the tacit agreement to participate in the support of our common good.
Are there laws?....sure are and every one of them places a limit and/or a penalty on something.
Do children have the same "freedoms" as adults? No. If one has to be an adult to enjoy certain things, if certain choices are limited by age, is everyone free in the same way? Not hardly.
So....what is a free society?
"go where you wanna go;
Do what you wanna do"


Is that it?
Pete








Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2012, 08:33:27 AM »
free men have the right to do anything they want as long as it does not infringe on another mans rights. Our consitution only states a few govt. has all the rest remain with men(citizens) .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2012, 01:58:38 PM »
free men have the right to do anything they want as long as it does not infringe on another mans rights. Our consitution only states a few govt. has all the rest remain with men(citizens) .
The Bill of rights says what the State can do and can not do.
What we have is a Government led by the left that does not like being restricted and is working on getting bigger to eliminate those restraints and eliminate the freedoms enjoyed for almost 200 years.

Online darkgael

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1656
  • The readiness is all. 4049 posts from the “old” gb
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2012, 04:11:17 PM »
Quote
and eliminate the freedoms enjoyed for almost 200 years
Such as......the right and freedom to bear arms.Ok
And then there's......
Pete

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2012, 04:00:34 AM »
the state has no rights other than what is granted to it , but has taken rights under the commerce clause . How does education become commerce as example ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2012, 05:50:24 AM »
Quote
and eliminate the freedoms enjoyed for almost 200 years
Such as......the right and freedom to bear arms.Ok
And then there's......
Pete
Free Speach. 1st amendment has been trampled on many times.
Search and Seasure _Secret warrants
Speedy and impartial Jury- Years waiting for a trial is not speedy and Choosing a Jury by definition makes biased not to mention all the exemptions that allow different groups to be exempt from service on a jury.  Why do lawyers and police get a pass?
The 14 says equal protection under the law.  Clearly we have seperate classes in the country now and we have people with super rights.  The Illegal immagrants are not punnished for the laws they break but are rewarded.  How many of you would be able to get away with not shoing ID ot the police and only having insurance on a vehicle and have it registered.  How many of you could simply say I am not payoing federal or state income taxes and not know what the food tastes like at the State or Federal prison system?
Why can one group of law makers state that they disagree with laws made by other law makers and ignore those laws and then expect others to follow the laws they make?   Here in CA we have multiple cities and counties that not only ignore Federal law but proclaim tthat htey are sanctuary cities.  We have a State that has passed a law contrary to Federal Drug laws and no one is arrested from the Doctors that prescribe an open prescription to the corner stores that are selling it.  How many doctors would be arrested and loose their license if they prescribed OXYcodone to a patient and did not give a dosage or strength of dosage and unlimited refills?
We have DUI laws that have you punnished before you are convicted in court.  Sound like double jepordy.  Conviocted on site by the arrest and punnished, and then tried in court.  Sounds like a blaitent disreguard for our basic tennent of Innocent until proven guilty and more like France where you are Guilty until you proove your self innocent.
We have departments of the government that are creating policy and writting their own rules, enforcing those rules and you appeal to them.  Sounds like a kangaroo court to me and definatly not a check and ballance of the corupt power in our government. 

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: Ten Vanishing Freedoms You Can Kiss Good-Bye
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2012, 06:34:01 AM »
If my house lost $50k in value tomorrow, I would be happy. Since I intend to honor the terms of my mortgage, I can easily continue to make my payments and enjoy lower property taxes.
don't count on the gov't being quick to re-evaluate you house, when it drops quickly in value... they still wants they tax money
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.