Author Topic: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa  (Read 863 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« on: September 02, 2012, 08:24:50 AM »
I thought this had been discussed here recently but couldn't find it, so perhaps this is somewhat redundant.  However just today a friend on another forum brought these up and showed a good picture, maybe I can bring that here. 
 
I thought the guns were bronze, but looking at her good photo, they appear to be iron.  ??  Or they are heavily painted one of the two.  Here's an old school paper article about them, and since it had to have been written long ago, perhaps it is true.  I had totally discounted the possibility that the gov't had taken two old Spanish guns from St. Augustine's Castillo de San Marcos and sent them to U of N. Iowa, but now may have to reconsider.  Anyway, one of you was going to contact the Castillo NPS folks and ask about that story (if it is this forum that this transpired on, I mean.)  Here's article, will try to get the photo.  Go to 2nd page of article.  http://www.library.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/pager1.php?url=http://www.lib.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/ni/1900/00000551.jpg

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of Iowa
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 08:32:26 AM »
She sent another later article.  I am sure about one thing, these guns are 18th C. style at the earliest, so they are NOT 400 years old, and did NOT come to Florida with whatsisname at that time.
http://www.library.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/pager1.php?url=http://www.lib.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/ni/1973/00000157.jpg

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of Iowa
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 08:37:17 AM »

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 02:18:49 AM »
Good pics and some interesting cannon here. Lots of flank howitzers in Iowa.

http://www.iowacivilwarmonuments.com/cgi-bin/gaardlocate.pl?1
Max

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 07:54:40 AM »
Does anyone here remember discussing these guns on this board before this discussion began?  I'm sure someone was going to check with Castillo.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 10:20:03 AM »
Don't remember, but I don't remember a lot of things these days.
GG
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 11:36:33 AM »
Thanks for trying Mr. G.  For some unknown reason I really want the answer to this one, the first time I kinda shrugged it off and gave a quick answer but now I'm interested. 
 
So, where to now?  Well let's take a look at what was turned over by Spain to the US, in the treaty of 1821 on that subject.  I copied both English and Spanish versions of the treaty right from the original documents at the Library of Congress a few years ago, and found the Spanish one on the 'puter just now, let's take a look.  Here's the full-sized one in a link since the Graybd shrunken one may not be as legible as required:
 
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/Forums62/treatydocument19june1821artydetails.jpg
 
Note that it lists two forts, Castillo de San Marcos with most of the guns, and a nearby fort called Mantanzas with only two guns.  Iron guns were listed separately (on left) from bronze mortars and howitzers.  Turned over were 10 each 24-pounder iron guns and 11 each 18-pounder iron guns. 
 
Now looking at Al Manucy's classic "ARTILLERY THROUGH THE AGES" we see on pp. 48, in 1834 there were 5 ea., 24 pdr. iron and 4 ea., 18 pdr. iron present, however we don't know if those were old Spanish guns or new American guns, so we'll have to rely on the 1821 turnover inventory which were definitely Spanish guns.
 
This still does not prove the guns at UNI came from St. Augustine, but it does prove that this was possible since there were both sizes present, at least in 1821.
 
I got the size info from one of the articles linked earlier, which gave the fol specs for the UNI guns:
 
A.  Bore 6 1/8 in., Length 140 in.   B.  Bore 5 3/8 in., Length 124 in.
 
I mentally equated "A" to a Spanish 24 pdr., and "B" to a Spanish 18 pdr., but didn't do any look-up, so somebody ought to check on me there, I hate to go on my faulty memory but just don't have time to look it up right now.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 06:51:17 AM »
I thought this had been discussed here recently but couldn't find it, so perhaps this is somewhat redundant.   However just today a friend on another forum brought these up and showed a good picture, maybe I can bring that here. 
 
I thought the guns were bronze, but looking at her good photo, they appear to be iron.  ??  Or they are heavily painted one of the two.  Here's an old school paper article about them, and since it had to have been written long ago, perhaps it is true.  I had totally discounted the possibility that the gov't had taken two old Spanish guns from St. Augustine's Castillo de San Marcos and sent them to U of N. Iowa, but now may have to reconsider.  Anyway, one of you was going to contact the Castillo NPS folks and ask about that story (if it is this forum that this transpired on, I mean.)  Here's article, will try to get the photo.  Go to 2nd page of article.  http://www.library.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/pager1.php?url=http://www.lib.uni.edu/gateway/indexuni/ni/1900/00000551.jpg


I may have missed it, (especially if it was posted Jan.- Feb.) but I don't recall these guns being discussed here before.

I saved and enlarged the photo from the "Iowa Civil War Monuments" site, and I'd say that the gun in the foreground is definitely cast iron. I can't clearly make out the surface of the cannon seen behind it, but it certainly duplicates the front cannon in form.




RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Spanish siege guns at Univ. of N. Iowa
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 01:30:52 PM »
I checked, that discussion was in the SARA group, not here, sorry.
 
 Meanwhile I sent the link to this disc. to Joe Brehm, the "cannon guy" at Castillo.  He was unaware of that particular transfer, if it occurred, but he has seen photos taken around that timeframe of Geronimo's family members and high stacks of cannon tubes in the background.  Hopefully the stacks are clear enough for him to say if the cannons in it resemble those at Northern Iowa University.