Auto Shucker Vs Trombone?

[mcwoodduck]

I was looking for the tactical forum and could not find it.
But then I thought why not stick it here as this is a good sitting around the stove at the general store conversation.
I have a pump shotgun that I have been using for home protection and the local 3 gun shoots.
I have been toying (drooling) over a Benelli M2 Tactical auto loader.
Other than being able to recharge the mag while still being able to shoot (one handed) would you trade in the trombone gun for an auto loader and Why?

[briarpatch]

I have both and much prefer the auto. With an auto you dont have to worry about posistion or room to pump and I dont think in all the years I have had my auto I can remember a malfunction. Unless you practice a lot with a pump, in a tense situation it is easy to short stroke and that would be a problem.

[Shu]

I would take the Benelli. The Marine Corp has purchased a bunch of them and use them. All the field testing in the worst case scenarios have been done by them, no reason to be concerned with reliabilty or maintainability. The Benelli will eat any 2 3/4 or 3 inch shell you put in and can even mix them up. You can't rack the slide faster than you can pull the trigger either. The auto will also absorb some of the recoil better than the pump. If I remember right that model of Benelli has a spring and no gas port so it should not crud up and fail to function.
 
The pump if you sprain a wrist, smash a finger etc is awfully awkward to shoot and rack the slide one handed. The auto isn't awkward to keep functioning.

[blind ear]

Auto, keep it clean and any rubber gaskets or orings fresh. ear

[mcwoodduck]

Thanks guys.
I was hoping one of you would try to talk me out of spending about $1,300.

[45-70.gov]

any self respecting gun owner/american  has a pump shotgun


i suggest you not trade it in


any time you have an excuse to buy a new gun........DO IT


sure the auto is better.....most of the time


most of us will never  need that first shot  let alone rapid followup shots
the pump will be safer  in a stressful situation  or a more likely false alarm
all the reasons  i carry a DAO revolver  over an auto pistol


playing  the shooting games  ...seems to favor the autos

[PAHUnter04]

How about a Saiga -12 semi auto with a 20 round Promag drum attached, badabing! Can you say street sweeper..
 
PAH04

[Lloyd Smale]

for self defense shotguns ive got a mosberg 20 and a rem 12 set up with lights ammo holders ect. I also have a saiga ready to go. The saigas much more fun to shoot but if someone broke into my house the pump 12 would get the nod. Its just a better handling gun and alothough the saiga has proven to be reliable id still trust the pump gun a bit more.

[mcwoodduck]

any self respecting gun owner/american  has a pump shotgun


i suggest you not trade it in

Even if I trade in the 870 I still have 4 other pump guns.
A Win 1897 Riot model
A Steven 520 that has been cut down
A Benelli Nova
A S&W 3000 with a 26" and 30" barrel.

[mcwoodduck]

How about a Saiga -12 semi auto with a 20 round Promag drum attached, badabing! Can you say street sweeper..
 
PAH04

My boss has one,  I find it hard to reload.  I have an AK with 100 round drums and reloading them is a pain as the drum is heavy and akward.
I also live in CA and anything more than 10 rounds is not allowed as a new gun.
When I was in college there was a guy that said the "street sweeper" was the best shotgun ever.  I grabbed my 1897 and told him I challeange him to a contest as to who could shoot 18 round faster.  The street sweeper held 12 rounds in a cylinder.
He accepted and he had about 4 rounds out as I had 6 with the Win.  Tossing in one round at a time I was at 18 rounds long before he had 6 rounds extracted from his drum. 
 

[45-70.gov]

if a single blast is not enough  .....let alone 3 to 6 rounds


your paying too much attention to equipment 
and not enough attention to tactics

[PAHUnter04]

Single blast, maybe one assailant. How about multiple assailants? How about holding off four or five assailants in a SHTF situation. I had the opportunity to put the Saiga 12 through it's paces yesterday. Let met tell you it is the most devastating 12 gauge shot gun on the market. It WILL shoot 20 rounds from that drum, as fast as you can pull the trigger. Want less bulk, how about a 10 or 5  round magazine. Either way it has more fire power in one setup than any other shotgun period.
 
I also have Remington 870's, 870 P's, Mossberg 590's, Mossy 930 SPX's  tactical, Winnies, and few more. Let's face it this Saiga 12 is NOT a bird hunting gun, but strictly a tactical weapon.
 
It blew through 12 ga High Brass 4 shot, Federal 00 buck with nine pellets. But what was really interesting was the Remington single 0 Buckshot with 16 pellets at 25 yards. I put up a silhouette target and let fly three fast shots. There was more than 35 holes in the torso area.
 
Like the Judge, it isn't for everyone. But if you ever need mucho firepower this thing delivers in spades.
 
Regards PAH04

[Bugflipper]

I am issued an M4 Benelli at work. It is accurate and reliable. At home I just have a pump winchester. I honestly can't see paying an extra thousand or more for the benefits of an auto over a pump. The majority of home owners would never need to fire a shot, much less shots in rapid succession. The recoil difference isn't an issue while under stress. Even with hunting deer most people don't remember the recoil of the shot.
 One could make the argument that an auto would have faster follow up shots if multiple target were encountered. But without a lot of time in a shoot house I doubt there would be a significant difference seen. From what I've seen it takes about the same time to put 2-3 rounds on target with a tactical sub gun, pistol or rifle as it does to put one round on target with an auto or pump shotgun, when dealing with multiple targets. Shotguns recoil more, so follow up shots are slower. There is a little more recoil with a pump but the new round should already be in the chamber by the time the sight picture of the new target drops in. A semi auto can actually get you into trouble if you try to get rounds out quicker, due to the recovery time required with the shotgun's recoil. With a spray and pray method the auto would have a definite advantage. But that really wouldn't be conducive to a good self defense strategy anyhow. My vote is to save your money if it's for a tactical advantage. If it's for the fun factor spend away. 

[mcwoodduck]

I am issued an M4 Benelli at work. It is accurate and reliable. At home I just have a pump winchester. I honestly can't see paying an extra thousand or more for the benefits of an auto over a pump. The majority of home owners would never need to fire a shot, much less shots in rapid succession. The recoil difference isn't an issue while under stress. Even with hunting deer most people don't remember the recoil of the shot.
 One could make the argument that an auto would have faster follow up shots if multiple target were encountered. But without a lot of time in a shoot house I doubt there would be a significant difference seen. From what I've seen it takes about the same time to put 2-3 rounds on target with a tactical sub gun, pistol or rifle as it does to put one round on target with an auto or pump shotgun, when dealing with multiple targets. Shotguns recoil more, so follow up shots are slower. There is a little more recoil with a pump but the new round should already be in the chamber by the time the sight picture of the new target drops in. A semi auto can actually get you into trouble if you try to get rounds out quicker, due to the recovery time required with the shotgun's recoil. With a spray and pray method the auto would have a definite advantage. But that really wouldn't be conducive to a good self defense strategy anyhow. My vote is to save your money if it's for a tactical advantage. If it's for the fun factor spend away. 

I agree with you for the At home part.
I havew been looking for an old Winchester Defender for at home as it will feed and shoot the 1.5" shells.  May not seem like a big deal but that means that mag that holds 6 3" shells will hold 12 1.5" shells and that would be more than enough to handle any problems.
But the questions about a auto is based on my target shooting.  Three gun and tactical shotgun compititions at the local clubs.
I have an 870 with a pistol grip to make loading easier.  I am wondering if being able to shoot (yes I can hold a 12 gan one handed and shoot it with a pistol grip) and be able to still stuff shells into the mag is beneficial?

[PAHUnter04]

Don't forget you can get a Mossberg Tactical 930 SPX for around $650.00 give or take. That is like less than $200 more than a good 870P or 590 pump. The Benelli M4$ is an outstanding shotty, but the price is a killer, over a grand.
 
I have friends using the Mossy 930 SPX in three gun shoots. Just make sure you hold one in your hands and check the sights before buy one. Some of these 930's the front sights are canted to one side on this model. This is my personal home defense / shop shotgun.
 
I am personally faster shooting, and on target with a semi, rather than a pump.
 
Regards PAH04

[keith44]

if a single blast is not enough  .....let alone 3 to 6 rounds


your paying too much attention to equipment 
and not enough attention to tactics

Single blast, maybe one assailant. How about multiple assailants? How about holding off four or five assailants in a SHTF situation. I had the opportunity to put the Saiga 12 through it's paces yesterday. Let met tell you it is the most devastating 12 gauge shot gun on the market. It WILL shoot 20 rounds from that drum, as fast as you can pull the trigger. Want less bulk, how about a 10 or 5  round magazine. Either way it has more fire power in one setup than any other shotgun period.
 

Like the Judge, it isn't for everyone. But if you ever need mucho firepower this thing delivers in spades.
 
Regards PAH04

psychologically if the racking of a pump gun and the subsequent dispatching of an assailant followed by re-racking sounds tends to remove all but the most determined threats.  In SHTF situations 4 or 5 hungry and desperate attackers are looking for soft targets, any multiple shot weapon chambered for a known combat cartridge is likely to work just fine.  Worrying about action type is a waste of a good worry.

[Bugflipper]

It depends on the rules. If allowed the speed loaders are the fastest reload option. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz0Q51IUV2M


With regular reloading it just depends on practice. Strong hand reloads with shells mounted to the gun and weak handed reloads with shells on the waist are usually the preferred methods. But either could be improvised as long as the technique is dialed in. Not saying it can't be done, but the pistol grip only shotguns are slower to load in a lot of cases because you lose the shoulder anchor point to steady it. With practice I imagine about any method could be done fast though. It just boils down to muscle memory from repetition.
A friend of mine holds two shells in his forward hand on a pump when duck hunting. He can shoot his benelli nova(without a recoil buffer) with 3.5" magnums quicker than I can shoot an 1100 in 2 3/4. He slings 3 out and drops the other two one at a time with his finger tips when his hand is at the rear stroke of the pump. This is accomplished in about the time it takes me to fire 3 accurate shots. It is very rare for him not to take down 3 or 4 with those 5 shots. He's been dropping the extra 2 at the end for 20 years or better. It just boils down to technique and practice.

[45-70.gov]

''A WASTE OF GOOD WORRY''


i like that phrase!!!!


why to people focus  on 'super-fast''reloads  more the the need for a reload??


that fast reload looks  ''fun''to play with....but rther useless


but  those so obsessed with reloading....need to go back to a single shot


not saying the singleshot  is better
but  just to re-train their thinking


on second thought......
if in a REAL self defence  it FORCES them to focus  on the first abd maybe only shot
then  that person in that situation will be better served with a single shot


no  one is perfect or has all the answers
i feel  i don't practice  my draw enough
i only  carry a 5 shot 357.....never practice reloads
but have ultimate confidence in making a single hard hit withing my kbown distance
this known distance and ultimate confidence comes from practicing
and not ''wasting worry'' needlessly on reloads

[Dixie Dude]

I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle.  Best shotgun I have ever owned.  Easy to clean since it is not gas operated.  No tools takedown even down to the firing pin.  You just have to take off the magazine cap to get to the bolt and barrel.  If you want to take out the trigger assembly, it is only one pin to pop out.  Screw in chokes give you a variety of whatever you hunt.  Mine is light and fast.  I can shoot anything from #8 birdshot for sporting clays to 3-1/2" magnum shells for geese, turkey, or buckshot. 

[mcwoodduck]

I have a Benelli Super Black Eagle.  Best shotgun I have ever owned.  Easy to clean since it is not gas operated.  No tools takedown even down to the firing pin.  You just have to take off the magazine cap to get to the bolt and barrel.  If you want to take out the trigger assembly, it is only one pin to pop out.  Screw in chokes give you a variety of whatever you hunt.  Mine is light and fast.  I can shoot anything from #8 birdshot for sporting clays to 3-1/2" magnum shells for geese, turkey, or buckshot.

Thanks, I have sporting shotguns.from little 410 SXS to 10 ga and many inbetween, I am asking if the Auto really makes a big difference in the 3 gun and tactical games.  I know the tatical shotgun compititions were won not too long ago with a guy using a Winchester 1897.

[Dixie Dude]

I have had Rem 870 pumps, Mossburg pumps, Rem 1187's, Beretta 391, Browing Gold auto, Browing Auto 5, and the Benelli.  I like the Benelli hands down.  Easiest to clean, light, shoots good, never had a problem.  Early on before break in, because it is a 3-1/2" magnum, some light #8 shot shells would not eject properly.  After shooting a few buckshot and heavy loads, breaking in an lubing the mainspring well, I can shoot a 100 round clay shoot without problems. 

[mcwoodduck]

I have had Rem 870 pumps, Mossburg pumps, Rem 1187's, Beretta 391, Browing Gold auto, Browing Auto 5, and the Benelli.  I like the Benelli hands down.  Easiest to clean, light, shoots good, never had a problem.  Early on before break in, because it is a 3-1/2" magnum, some light #8 shot shells would not eject properly.  After shooting a few buckshot and heavy loads, breaking in an lubing the mainspring well, I can shoot a 100 round clay shoot without problems.

The Benelli Manual says about 50 to 100 rounds as a break in.
My friend was the Benelli rep and getting ready for the Sportsfair he would had a bunch of new guns to me and another friend to get functioning and clean for the fair where people came to shoot the guns. 

[mcwoodduck]

''A WASTE OF GOOD WORRY''


i like that phrase!!!!


why to people focus  on 'super-fast''reloads  more the the need for a reload??


that fast reload looks  ''fun''to play with....but rther useless

no  one is perfect or has all the answers
i feel  i don't practice  my draw enough
i only  carry a 5 shot 357.....never practice reloads
but have ultimate confidence in making a single hard hit withing my kbown distance
this known distance and ultimate confidence comes from practicing
and not ''wasting worry'' needlessly on reloads

Three reasons why I practice reloads.
1) part of most gun games, shoot , move and reload.  Teaching your self mussle memory is a good thing.  Heck I practice getting shells smoothly into my sporting clays guns.
2) Mr Murphy is never too far away from your gun.
A friend of mine owned a gun shop and when he first opened he carried a 2" 5 shot 38 on his hip.  Just before closing one night 7 gang members came into his store and demanded $ and guns.  He convinced them he would kill at least 5 of them and they left.  He went to the pistol shelf and pulled out a Glock 17 loaded it with 18 rounds and kept that on him the rest of the time he owned the store.  I hasked why he did not carry a spare mag on his belt, he said there would be no time to reload and 18 rounds were enough.  One day while I was in the shop he sat down and his mag hit the floor.  Mr Murphy hit the mag release.  Had it been a problem at the time the mag would have hit the floor bounced around and he would have to have gotten on all fours to reinsert it.  He then started to carry a second mag.
3) I understand that most gun fights do not go past 6 rounds total.  In your self protection just because you have used and hit what you are aiming at and stopped that threat there is no reason for you not to top off your revolver and be ready for any follow on danger, such as the problems friends showing up to take revenge and knowing how to get more ammo in the gun at critical times is paramount.  I would hat to be ready for only one gun fight with my 5 or 6 rounds and not be ready for a second.  Do you carry a spare tire on your car?  Think of a reload as a spare tire. not knowing how to change a tire in an energency is like not having one, and you can't call the NRA like AAA to reload your revolver.  And if you could do you really want ot be standing next to your revolver with card in hand for 30 to 60 minutes?     My night scatter gun has a 6 round side saddle of loaded ammo ready to top off the shotgun in case and I have practiced getting the ammo out of the saddle efficienty and into the mag tube.  As things go bump in the night and your grab that shotgun, all the problem solving ammo you have is going to be in or on the gun, untill someone invents the tactical bathrobe that has a holser, mag holder, flashlight pocket, cell phone holder that will work in speaker mode hiding the glow of the phone, and a bandoleer of 12 ga with  kevlar pannels sewn in. MMM did I just come up with the million dollar idea?

[45-70.gov]

all very good points
especially about the spare tire


tho a dead battery  has been  in my experience  a BIGGER problem
do you drive  stick shift....i do....most people don't
and  have replace equal number of starters to blown tires


i just ordered  my kevlar bath robe

[mcwoodduck]