Author Topic: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.  (Read 996 times)

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Offline powderman

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The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« on: September 08, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »
ATF’s latest gun grab    Agency reduces due process for seizing firearms


The Obama administration is making it easier for bureaucrats to take away guns without offering the accused any realistic due process. In a final rule published last week, the Justice Department granted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) authority to “seize and administratively forfeit property involved in controlled-substance abuses.”

That means government can grab firearms and other property from someone who has never been convicted or even charged with any crime.
It’s a dangerous extension of the civil-forfeiture doctrine, a surreal legal fiction in which the seized property — not a person — is put on trial. This allows prosecutors to dispense with pesky constitutional rights, which conveniently don’t apply to inanimate objects. In this looking-glass world, the owner is effectively guilty until proved innocent and has the burden of proving otherwise. Anyone falsely accused will never see his property again unless he succeeds in an expensive uphill legal battle.

Such seizures are common in drug cases, which sometimes can ensnare people who have done nothing wrong. James Lieto found out about civil forfeiture the hard way when the FBI seized $392,000 from his business because the money was being carried by an armored-car firm he had hired that had fallen under a federal investigation. As the Wall Street Journal reported, Mr. Lieto was never accused of any crime, yet he spent thousands in legal fees to get his money back.

Law enforcement agencies love civil forfeiture because it’s extremely lucrative. The Department of Justice’s Assets Forfeiture Fund had $2.8 billion in booty in 2011, according to a January audit. Seizing guns from purported criminals is nothing new; Justice destroyed or kept 11,355 guns last year, returning just 396 to innocent owners. The new ATF rule undoubtedly is designed to ramp up the gun-grabbing because, as the rule justification claims, “The nexus between drug trafficking and firearm violence is well established.”

The main problem is that civil forfeiture creates a perverse profit motive, leaving bureaucrats with strong incentives to abuse a process that doesn’t sufficiently protect those who may be wrongly accused. Criminal forfeiture is more appropriate because it’s tied to a conviction in a court with the option of a jury trial and evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Innocents like Mr. Lieto have to fight against the might of the U.S. government with a watered-down standard that stacks the legal deck so prosecutors can get a quick win.

The rule extending civil-forfeiture power to the ATF recognizes this dynamic, stating with perhaps unconscious cynicism that an uncontested civil forfeiture “can be perfected for minimal cost” compared to the “hundreds or thousands of dollars” and “years” needed for judicial forfeiture. Nowhere is there any recognition of the burden placed on innocent citizens stripped of their property, or of the erosion of their civil liberties. In fact, the rule argues that, because in the past the ATF could turn over requests for civil forfeiture to the Drug Enforcement Administration, there has been no change in “individual rights.”

Instead of expanding the profit motive in policing, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. should be working to eliminate it.


Read more: GHEI: ATF's latest gun grab - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz25po4j5Tg
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 05:03:49 AM »
just wait until husseins second term when he really turns the hounds loose.
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Offline guzzijohn

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 09:54:45 AM »
Once again this all started through republicans, in the case of forfeiture laws through Reagan. Once again let pile on Obama when does not deserve it.
GuzziJohn

Offline srussell

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 10:23:01 AM »
Once again this all started through republicans, in the case of forfeiture laws through Reagan. Once again let pile on Obama when does not deserve it.
GuzziJohn
shame on you guys .  blaming the chosen one ::)

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
Once again this all started through republicans, in the case of forfeiture laws through Reagan. Once again let pile on Obama when does not deserve it.
GuzziJohn
silly me, I thought obama has been the pres for the last few years.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 02:53:09 PM »
but if these laws  keep drugs off the street!!!!!!!
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Flash

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 05:12:48 AM »
but if these laws  keep drugs off the street!!!!!!!

Are you serious? You really think that this is aimed at alcohol and drug abuse? Its attacking a group of citizens who don't even care about themselves and are almost guaranteed not to offer any resistance to losing a constitutional freedom. However small their numbers might be, its still a percentage of the population. Think if what might be next. Divorces? Terminated employees? Foreclosure victims? Fatal disease patients? Points on your drivers license? Living in a city? Poverty income level?
Wake up man and vote him out!!!!!!!!!
And just for the record, Obama broadened the scope of a current law to include DUI  offenders and controlled substance abusers. Neither of these were targeted by the original law written during the Reagan administration. That makes his ass responsible for round two, nobody else.
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 01:47:52 PM »
do you actually want  pot smokers nd drunkards to have guns????


next thing you know a woman will be able to buy  gun after she has had an abortion


WE NEED TO IMPOSE  OUR MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Flash

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 02:28:24 PM »
do you actually want  pot smokers nd drunkards to have guns????


next thing you know a woman will be able to buy  gun after she has had an abortion


WE NEED TO IMPOSE  OUR MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!

If i had to choose right now, id vote to have yours taken away.......just saying
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 03:19:49 AM »
why??.........any gun i want  is a mouse-clik away   


i have a feseral license  so  if
my gun can be taken  yours surely can
if  my rights  arent protected  who will protect yours??
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 04:06:30 AM »
C'mon anything done in the interest of drug crime is fine. Take the house, take the car, why not take the guns too? I would sooner give up a Raven .25, than a nice house in the city.
 
I can't believe some of you folks. Am I to believe there is a line to be crossed in this "war on drugs" that goes to far? I mean how on earth are you going to find yourself caught up in some sort of druggy problem for this to ever effect you? Camels nose you say? :o ::)  Grinding away your rights? :o ::)  Well those in charge are determining just what rights you have a right to these days. You won't have any rights to self determination soon enough. This crap has a habit of going around and then coming around. So now that the camel manure is getting into the fan you are concerned?
 
 This has a certain libertarian feel so stop reading here if you may get offended. Keep your opinions to yourself. Do not restrict the rights of others lest your rights be restricted. What I do with my free time and money is my business. Unless you can show tangible personnel loss STHU about my proceedings in life.
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Offline Flash

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 10:47:25 PM »
C'mon anything done in the interest of drug crime is fine. Take the house, take the car, why not take the guns too? I would sooner give up a Raven .25, than a nice house in the city.
 
I can't believe some of you folks. Am I to believe there is a line to be crossed in this "war on drugs" that goes to far? I mean how on earth are you going to find yourself caught up in some sort of druggy problem for this to ever effect you? Camels nose you say? :o ::)  Grinding away your rights? :o ::)  Well those in charge are determining just what rights you have a right to these days. You won't have any rights to self determination soon enough. This crap has a habit of going around and then coming around. So now that the camel manure is getting into the fan you are concerned?
 This
[/quote

Its not only drugs, its DUI charges too. Drink three beers for dinner at a restaurant and lose your guns? How many politicians drive from celebrations that are trashed
And i bet they won't lose theirs?
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 03:57:01 AM »
they should not be allowed to vote without a drug test  and breathalizer
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 07:21:46 AM »
C'mon anything done in the interest of drug crime is fine. Take the house, take the car, why not take the guns too? I would sooner give up a Raven .25, than a nice house in the city.
 
I can't believe some of you folks. Am I to believe there is a line to be crossed in this "war on drugs" that goes to far? I mean how on earth are you going to find yourself caught up in some sort of druggy problem for this to ever effect you? Camels nose you say? :o ::)  Grinding away your rights? :o ::)  Well those in charge are determining just what rights you have a right to these days. You won't have any rights to self determination soon enough. This crap has a habit of going around and then coming around. So now that the camel manure is getting into the fan you are concerned?
 This
[/quote

Its not only drugs, its DUI charges too. Drink three beers for dinner at a restaurant and lose your guns? How many politicians drive from celebrations that are trashed
And i bet they won't lose theirs?
My point exactly. Druggies, drunks, fist fight ( why now you are a terrorist), cussing someone of a different life experience ( hate crime / terroristic threats) the list is un ending. Those who support this **** want the legal precident to detain you, jail you, and deprive you of your possesions, for whatever the reason du jour might be.
 
This is how the legal system works folks. A lawyer maintains that if A+B is illegal then A+C must also be illegal and if that is true anything involving A,B,or C, by association is also illegal. This is a creeping disease that will be the end of the society we have grown up in. Watch your A's folks cause the rest of you is soon to follow.
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Offline muznut 54

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2012, 08:09:26 AM »
I think guns should be taken away from drug dealers. With that said I sold one on payments and loaned two other firearms to my nephew and the little bastard got busted for growing pot. He lived a few hundred miles from me and I only saw him once a year but anyway I had no clue what he was up to until he got busted. Long story short I went to court a half a dozen times driving 400 miles a trip. The judge liked me and said if he could he would order the sheriffs department to give them back. Also my nephew didn't even have the guns at his house or where he grew the pot he had them at a friends house because he knew it would be a harsher penalty if he got busted, But I guess the cops were watching him and made him give them up and the cops sold them. I wonder how that works?  The only problem with the theory of this thread is that happend under the Bush admin. You guys should google the Bush gun control and see what he had his attorney general doing. 

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 04:36:53 AM »
contitution protects  ''people''  not ''property''


you are intitle to due prosess
your property  isn't


many  times firearms are taken  then charges are dropped
but  fire arms  are not returned


i recently had a client  who had to pay me to help him jump through  hoops
do  get his  own guns returned
he was falsely arrested
they ordered him to surrender   his ''registerd guns''...so much  for registering
then charges were dropped
mean time he moved out of state
over a year later  we arramged the return of his guns


if government can tell you you can't take drugs
they can tell you you can have guns
YOU GIVE GOVERNMENT TOO MUCH POWER
 OR YOU LIMIT GOVERNMENT POWER


you either believe in freedom or you   DON'T
it  is really that simple
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline mac60

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Re: The dems latest gun grab attack using atf.
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »
45-70.gov - That's the bottom line. You either believe in freedom or you don't. Unfortunately you're arguing with people who actually believe the word "freedom" means that everything they want should be free!