Author Topic: A Question  (Read 2100 times)

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Offline Spirithawk

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A Question
« on: September 09, 2012, 01:01:24 PM »
Ok, here's the deal. My Great,great,great-grandfather fought for the Confedracy. I know this for two reasons. 1) My grandmother had his Captains uniform and his sword ( Both stolen years ago or I might get info from the uniform) 2) I've found records of him applying for a Confedrate pension. My problem is that I can find no record of him actualy serving other than the pension application. Any ideas why that might be? His name was Charles Patty. Any thoughts much apreciated.

Offline GeneRector

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Re: A Question
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 03:27:51 PM »
 :)  Howdy! Ancestry.com is a source that may have your answer. They have Civil War Records for search. Hope this helps!  Always, Gene
 
 
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Gene Rector
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 03:38:18 PM »
:)  Howdy! Ancestry.com is a source that may have your answer. They have Civil War Records for search. Hope this helps!  Always, Gene

Thanks but I tried there first. That's where I first found a record of his having aplied for a pension. I've searched several Civil War data bases and keep coming up blank. I'm wondering if he could have served with a militia or a guerrila group? He had to have served with a legitimatly recognised Confederate outfit though or he wouldn't have been elligible for a pension.

Offline reliquary

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Re: A Question
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 02:33:43 AM »
Brother:  did you check the state archives?  Same thing happened with my ancestor...the official Confederate records were spotty at best, but we finally got his enlistment and discharge papers from the Texas state archives in Austin. 
 
Check also for alternative spellings of the last name.  Sometimes they vary from source to source.
 
Another outside chance might be something called "The Official Records of the War Between the States"...a massive set of the bound, official correspondences of both sides (cables, orders, etc)...usually the state libraries have one...he might be mentioned in there if he was that high-ranking.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 04:31:44 AM »
Brother:  did you check the state archives?  Same thing happened with my ancestor...the official Confederate records were spotty at best, but we finally got his enlistment and discharge papers from the Texas state archives in Austin. 
 
Check also for alternative spellings of the last name.  Sometimes they vary from source to source.
 
Another outside chance might be something called "The Official Records of the War Between the States"...a massive set of the bound, official correspondences of both sides (cables, orders, etc)...usually the state libraries have one...he might be mentioned in there if he was that high-ranking.
Thanks. :) He Lived at the time in Tatum, Panola County, Texas so I'll definitelycheck the state archives first. I sure do apreciaye the advice.

Offline srussell

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Re: A Question
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 07:37:37 PM »
some states have great records, SC is one of them


Offline reliquary

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Re: A Question
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 03:02:55 AM »
Spirithawk:  I'm having trouble with the PM system...can send but not receive on GBO...shows up OK in my email, though.  Does the pension application show what unit gggp served with?  Sometimes, if this is known, it's possible to trace down the unit records/unit diaries.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 03:58:09 AM »
Nope it didn't show.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Question
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 11:31:58 AM »
A lot of the records were destroyed at the end of the War for various reasons.  And many more lost over the years due to poor storage and such.  The hints given you seem to be steering you in the right direction.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 03:01:56 PM »
A lot of the records were destroyed at the end of the War for various reasons.  And many more lost over the years due to poor storage and such.  The hints given you seem to be steering you in the right direction.
I apreciate it Joe. Don't know if you were ever able to read my message but I was told there's a stage station in Texas, still standing, that was owned by my family. Not sure exactly where though. wish I did know. Just one more tidbit to dig for.  ;D Been busy, my mother's in the hospital and I'm facing heart valve replacement soon, and haven't had  the chance to call John Patty but I will soon. Going bow hunting with my son tomorrow so maybe I can call him Sunday. Will let you know if he's related. Thanks again.

Offline reliquary

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Re: A Question
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2012, 09:24:33 AM »
hawk:  a link you might find interesting.
http://civilwarroster.com/cw/cw-tx.html
 

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 04:30:48 PM »

Offline sidewinder319

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Re: A Question
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 04:42:00 PM »
Get a Veterans record application for CW Vets. If a Vet filed it will be on record if paid or refused and why, I checked one which we thought was a militia unit turns out he was regular army. These records are damn good going back to the ARW.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Question
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2012, 02:03:24 AM »
You might want to dig through this too:  http://digital.library.cornell.edu/m/moawar/waro.html

The War of the Rebellion: a Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies

Author: United States. War Dept.
Title: The War of the Rebellion: a Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies
Other Title: Official records of the Union and Confederate armies
Publisher: Govt. Print. Off.
Place of Publication: Washington
MoA Volumes: Series I, 1-53; Series II, 1-8; Series III, 1-5; Series IV, 1-4 (1880 - 1901)
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline garbhead

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Re: A Question
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2012, 02:23:19 AM »
This may be a dumb question but, who would one apply for a Confederate pension from? The Confederate Govt was non-existant after the war, wasn't it?
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Question
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2012, 03:15:39 AM »
This may be a dumb question but, who would one apply for a Confederate pension from? The Confederate Govt was non-existant after the war, wasn't it?

Generally paid by the individual states.   Most who fought for the CSA were members of state militia. 

ADDED:  Not a dumb question at all.  It does seem a puzzlement - how could one collect a pension for service rendered to a government no longer in existence.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline scotsman

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Re: A Question
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 07:35:31 AM »
Spirithawk I second the checking of every alternate spelling of the name you can think of. Records were poorly kept at times and the spelling was just as bad. One of my ancestors George Chronister had his name spelled Geo. Kronsater (also in a Texas Cavalry unit.)

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 10:37:37 AM »
All great and much apreciated advice guys. Thank ya kindly. Garb, ya know? I wondered that too. You actualy helped me out by asking. Wouldn't it seem likely that if he applied for a pension that he must have served in a militia unit? That would certainly narrow the search a bit. You guys are awesome. Thanks!

Offline reliquary

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Re: A Question
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 04:07:08 PM »
Technically, all the troops belonged to the States from which they enlisted.  Their units may have been assigned to Army-this or Corps-that, for command and control purposes, but they were enlisted by the individual states.
 
Most states would accept a privately-raised "unit" into their "regular service".  If someone wanted to be a captain, for example, he could equip & uniorm, and enlist to him a group of at least 50 men (assuming he had the money).  If they were found to be acceptable for service, they would then be incorporated into the state's regular troop list with him as the commander. Commisions could also be purchased from the states by paying for them, and suitably connected individuals of the higher levels of society would often be commissioned "gratis".  Some folks enlisted as private soldiers and were commisioned because of individual merit. 
 
Late in the war, states sent out "enrolling officers" to enlist soldiers and enforce the draft.  States also had things similar to "home guard" units, made up of those otherwise unfit to fight, but even they are considered veterans, and rightly so. 
 
If your gggp was a captain, there should be some record of his service somewhere.  But he or his widow would ordinarily be paid their pensions by the state for whom he served.  Some widows were paid from the US Treasury after 1900 or so, but the application by the soldier would be sent to his state. 

Offline ironglow

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Re: A Question
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 04:19:35 PM »
  I have a friend who is our town historian and often searches out just such records, I'll ask him for some tips.  Since I live in the north, records are usually a bit more accessable, their not having been as badly interrupted as some of the southern records were.  I'll see what I can find out..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 05:04:40 PM »
Thanks again guys, you're awesome. Charle's son, Zorable Patty, owned a plantation in Winston, Mississipi. When it was becoming obvious the South was losing they sold the plantation and moved to Tatum, Penola County, Texas. They were die hard Confedrates. My grandmother was the spitting image of Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies in every way. She had a taste for moonshine and was quite good at making it. Speak ill of the South in her presence and you might find yourself staring down the barrels of a side by side 12 gauge. At the least you were shown the door and told not to come back. Once a doped up guy with a knife tried breaking in. At the young age of 78 she emptied a .38 Special through the door. He never made that mistake again! ;) I had been told she had been cozy with gangsters. When the movie with Warren Beaty came out I asked her if she knew Bonnie & Clyde. She got a miscievious grin and said wait a minute. She left the room and when she came back she layed a pic on the table. there was Granny standing arm in arm in front of an old V8 Ford with Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker! She raised me from birth and I wouldn't go to sleep at night without a story of her life, one of her family, or of Texas. Wish I had them all written down they'd make one heck of a book! Saddly I've probably forgotten more than I remember. Anyhow, she's the reason I have a passion for learning more. :)
 
PS, the family name was originaly Patey, at least that's the way it was spelled on James Patey,s will back in 1765. His son was Jesse and it's he who first spelled it Patty but I have also seen it spelled as Pattie or Patie. Being half Cherokee, and familiar with mispelled Cherokee names on the Rolls and records, I'm familiar with how often names can be altered. All too often the person writing it down could barely spell and spelled it the way it sounded to him or her.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Question
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 06:41:05 PM »
You might also want to as on the MS and TX pages here:  http://history-sites.com/

Can't hurt anyway.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironglow

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Re: A Question
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 06:26:22 AM »
Sounds like you're gaining on it Spirithawk.  My historian friend says for v eterans, you should check with the state Dept of Parks..of all things.  They keep some records here in NY state...perhaps something to do with memorial parks..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2012, 11:52:17 AM »
Sounds like you're gaining on it Spirithawk.  My historian friend says for v eterans, you should check with the state Dept of Parks..of all things.  They keep some records here in NY state...perhaps something to do with memorial parks..

Cool, thanks! :)

Offline reliquary

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Re: A Question
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 02:05:27 AM »
Brother:  I still think that there is most likely someone in your family line who knows which unit your ancestor served with.  If you get that established, you're well on the way.  Put out the word through the families and see what comes.

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: A Question
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2012, 11:41:01 AM »
My mother's family was all in Texas and I've lost touch with them. I need to call that number you gave me but been bow hunting and haven't got the chance. Think I will tonight though. thanks. :)

Offline Larry L

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Re: A Question
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 04:16:03 AM »
Hopefully this is helpful. I also have family that fought and died in the Civil War. My Great, Great GF was a surgeon with the Union but swapped sides when the Union troops burned his plantation to the ground in Virginia. He was with Sibley on his march thru New Mexico and Arizona. I have other family that fought in the south at mostly unknown places. Because I have the interest, I have a lot of links that I commonly research. If you find an exact match to your family, you're lucky. My one GGGF was named Jacob Grounds but he's listed as Jesse as is his pension statement at his address in Calaveras, Texas. I'm seeing a C F Patty listed which may be your family member. He was in the 14th Texas Infantry under Captain W L Pickens, commanded by Col. Edward Clark. Hopefully this is your family. Here's a listing for your research:
http://www.texansinthecivilwar.com/14th_Infantry/14th_infantry.html


This was the only Patty I've found with the exception of a Capt James S Pattie with the 16th Texas, Company D but I would think that's a stretch. Maybe a relative?