Custer and Little Big Horn Battle Question

[Dee]

Historically I believe one can conclude, and history has concluded, that Custer split his men, and misjudged the numbers, thereby weakening them, and the Sioux were better armed. This is not to also include, that the General was on a mission of glory, while the Sioux was on a mission of survival. The fact that Custer was also a much recognized "tactical idiot" did not improve the situation.
Repeating rifles most likely would not have saved Custer and his men. Pried out copper casings were the least of their worries.

[clum sum]

Custer should have been shot.

[Dee]

Well sir, I believe he was. Multiple times.

[clum sum]

I ment a week before.

[Dee]

I think 20 years before would have saved more lives, and been overall, more productive.

[clum sum]

Agree.

[GeneRector]

   Howdy! An interesting tidbit I found was that the standard issue of ammo for the pistols was only 24 cartridges. I would have thought they would have more than 24; however, they carried 50 rifle cartridges with another 50 in a bag or pouch on their horse. Always, Gene
 
 

[Empty Quiver]

I think 20 years before would have saved more lives, and been overall, more productive.

The man must have exibited some sort of leadership qualities. You don't get to be the youngest ( or any age for that matter ) General officer with out some kind of redeeming quality.
 
It is pretty easy to arm chair quarterback with over 100 years of investigation and speculation on your side of the equation. Certainly he was overly bold but the same quality had gotten him to the loftiest of positions as well. Patton was a very bold leader, had gotten himself in hot water more than once. Where would he stand if he had his ass handed to him once in France, rather than delivering on his overly bold manuevers?
 
Lastly, I would remind you to watch your manners, I've been told by many relatives that General Custer is my kin through the Armstrong line. I have not seen the documentation, but the cities and names sure would indicate they are not making up stories.

[Dee]

Well Empty Quiver, I am repeating what history has dictated, and recorded, against one of the coldest blooded killers of women and babies the U.S. Calvary had. He was noted for this, and was thinking an easy victory, against women and children, at the the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn) the day he (as you say), got his ass handed to him. Politicians of the day, made military appointments, for reasons ranging in everything from, relatives, to low lifes willing to do the dirty work. Custer was making his reputation off of how many Indians he could kill, and thought he was ridding into a camp where the men were away hunting. Some relative "you think you may have but ain't sure" .

Lastly, (and this is the silliest part of your post) as far as my watching my manners. I along with thousands of other "Native Americans" am not in doubt of my lineage, as you are yours, and would say he didn't die soon enough, and good riddance to him. Along with several presidents that also practiced genocide against the first Americans, for the purpose of "clearing the way for whites". 

Now that your "PERSONAL" feelings have been appeased, everyone can get back to the discussion of Custer and the Little Big Horn Battle.
 
 

[Swampman]

You didn't need to practice genocide.  Just shaking hands with them could wipe out an entrie village and did.  My GGGGUncle was killed and eaten by the Cherokee.  Neither side was innocent in these matters.  The unprovoked and horrible acts commited against innocent women and childern by the Indians are too numerous to speak of.  All part of Manifest Destiny.  I'm about a 16th Native American and have no ill feeling toward either side.  War is war......it could have ended in no other way.  America was meant to be.....

[Dee]

 

[Swampman]

Your Hollywoodish ideas on the Indian Wars are common. 

[Dee]

While the last two posters have tried to make this a "PERSONAL ISSUE", with what I have said here, "which I find odd", I would encourage others actually interested in this topic, as I am, to research what is said here, and invest a little time in Captain Benteen and Major Reno's reports of the events, and their perceived cause analysis. It should be remembered that not everyone was wiped out at the Little Big Horn. There are soldier accounts, as well as Sioux accounts.

[texagun]

Custer was highly regarded as an effective and highly successful cavalry officer during the Civil War, primarily during the battle of Gettysburg.  His defeat at the Little Big Horn overshadowed his prior achievements.

"Custer developed a strong reputation during the Civil War. He fought in the first major engagement, the First Battle of Bull Run. His association with several important officers helped his career, as did his success as a highly effective cavalry commander. Custer was eventually promoted to the temporary rank (brevet) of major general. (At war's end, he reverted to his permanent rank of captain.) At the conclusion of the Appomattox Campaign, in which he and his troops played a decisive role, Custer was on hand at General Robert E. Lee's surrender.
After the Civil War, Custer was dispatched to the west to fight in the Indian Wars. His disastrous final battle overshadowed his prior achievements. Custer and all the men with him were killed at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876, fighting against a coalition of Native American tribes in a battle that has come to be popularly known in American history as "Custer's Last Stand"."

[Dee]

Post Civil War, his Michigan Calvary was disbanded after a mutiny over Custer's' heavy handed disciplinary tactics which included using a whip on his men. In 1867 he was court martial ed, and found guilty of being absent from his men, and misusing some, to do an "unofficial escort", whereon in he abandoned some of his men, and caused their death. i.e. He was AWOL, and had abandoned his post to go and see his wife, taking soldiers for his own personal protection. Also in the proceedings, he was prosecuted for ordering a "shoot to kill" on his own men for desertion, and his unjustifiable cruelty to wounded soldiers.
He was given another command only because of his support from General Terry, and their short handedness, and was working in disgrace from his insults to President Grant, General William Sherman, and his division commander General Sheridan. This was due to his shady "trading post allocations".
His rise thru the ranks at such a pace was more due to the press pressure, loving his flamboyant dress, arrogance, and exaggerated battle stories to that press.

He was indeed regarded as a "Civil War Hero", but over time, his true character revealed him, as an arrogant glory hound, that had no respect for his men, or authority, and as this thread topic reveals, it eventually got him, and over 200 of his men killed.

As was Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, JFK and others. Custer has been maligned to be something, they and he, were not. Hollywood and the press, has played a major part in this distortion of "actual history".

[BBF]

That Custer Dude  reminded my of a certain Company Commander I had the displeasure of being acquainted to in Korea. 'twas a good thing nobody was shooting at each other at that time. He was a good candidate for "fragging" by his own.

[Empty Quiver]

Well Empty Quiver, I am repeating what history has dictated, and recorded, against one of the coldest blooded killers of women and babies the U.S. Calvary had. He was noted for this, and was thinking an easy victory, against women and children, at the the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn) the day he (as you say), got his ass handed to him. Politicians of the day, made military appointments, for reasons ranging in everything from, relatives, to low lifes willing to do the dirty work. Custer was making his reputation off of how many Indians he could kill, and thought he was ridding into a camp where the men were away hunting. Some relative "you think you may have but ain't sure" .

Lastly, (and this is the silliest part of your post) as far as my watching my manners. I along with thousands of other "Native Americans" am not in doubt of my lineage, as you are yours, and would say he didn't die soon enough, and good riddance to him. Along with several presidents that also practiced genocide against the first Americans, for the purpose of "clearing the way for whites". 

Now that your "PERSONAL" feelings have been appeased, everyone can get back to the discussion of Custer and the Little Big Horn Battle.

Well Dee you took my post a bit too literal. The last bit was meant tongue in cheek. He truly was a relative though.
 
It was a different time and to judge tactics by modern standards is wrong. The US policy was in fact genocide ( as has been practiced from the dawn of time up to and including the 21 century ). I'm not about to advocate killing women and children. I believe he had already made a reputation from the number of confederate soldiers he could kill, the natives he killed only furthered the body count.
 
 Are you going to hold present day military responsible for what happens in Afghanistan? I'm betting the Afghan's have plenty of conversations about the Russian troops and the US troops being about the same. We feel we are there for the right reasons no doubt those we are killing have a different opinion on the subject.
 
You are allowed to be indignant over native deaths due to your heritage. I am allowed none of the aforementioned feelings? Custer the architect of Indian massacres was in turned massacred... by Indians. Why the good and true Indian people could have as easily captured Custer and his men and taken them into there villages and taught them the evil of their ways. 
 
The fact is Custer got himself and his command killed through his bravado. Remember though, that bravado had served him well throughout his career. Being on the receiving end does not change the fact he was a ruthless and capable fighter.

[bubba15301]

  I agree with basically all Dee said..but still seeking answer to the ejectors ripping clear through the cartridge rims..anybody know if that were a huge problem?
 
   Oh, BTW:  Didn't Custer turn down either cannons or gatling guns before the battle?

turned down gatling guns the cartridge cases were made of soft copper ,after being heated up from firing the cases would swell in the chamber

[Swampman]

It was a war.  The Indians always chose the wrong side in every war and so they sealed their fate.  Dee is about as Indian as I am.  Hollywood aside the idea of the noble savage was started by James Fenimoor Cooper in about the 1830s.

[Hellgate]

Every Indian tribe got to where they were located before Columbus arrived by massacreing or forcing out weaker tribes and occupying the land. Whites merely did to the Indians what the Indians had done to each other for thousands of years. Eventually a similar thing will happen to the occupiers of the U.S.

[ironglow]

Every Indian tribe got to where they were located before Columbus arrived by massacreing or forcing out weaker tribes and occupying the land. Whites merely did to the Indians what the Indians had done to each other for thousands of years. Eventually a similar thing will happen to the occupiers of the U.S.

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    Pretty much explains it...in a nutshell..

[GeneRector]

   Howdy! So that we can learn from history, what can we do to prevent the following from happening?
 
Eventually a similar thing will happen to the occupiers of the U.S.

[ironglow]

  Howdy! So that we can learn from history, what can we do to prevent the following from happening?
 
Eventually a similar thing will happen to the occupiers of the U.S.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
  Perhaps we can't...

[AtlLaw]

Every Indian tribe got to where they were located before Columbus arrived by massacreing or forcing out weaker tribes...

Seems to me I read somewhere the Sioux were originally a north eastern tribe that was forced west by others...    Iroquois maybe?   

[Hellgate]

AtlLaw,

Once white men showed on the scene, tribes were forced to move westward due to white expansion. This caused a ripple effect across the continent. Often those tribes with contact with whites had superior technology (guns, steel, horses) and were able to kick their traditional adversaries farther west. The Sioux were woodland farmers who were forced out onto the plains by eastern tribes (not sure who). I doubt that the Sioux had truely originated in the Black Hills (sacred homeland) prior to the white man but still, they had to kick someone out of there to begin with in order to claim it as "ancestral".

[mcwoodduck]

. Eventually a similar thing will happen to the occupiers of the U.S.

Occupiers of the US?
Is that political Occupiers as in it belongs to someone else and current people here are criminal trespassers or do you mena the people currently living here will be displaced by other groups moving in and moving out? 
Much like the Huns were forced out of the Steps by the Mongols and they then invaded and took over part of the Roman Empire.

[Dee]

It was a war.  The Indians always chose the wrong side in every war and so they sealed their fate.  Dee is about as Indian as I am.  Hollywood aside the idea of the noble savage was started by James Fenimoor Cooper in about the 1830s.

Proverbs Chapter 18 verse 6. OKJV

[coyotejoe]

Custer demonstrated exactly why he was last in his class at West Point by violating the three most basic rules of tactics.
First rule: Never divide your force in the face of the enemy.  Custer divided his battalion into three companies with three smaller detachments to split of from two of those companies. In all he had six detachments spread so wide that no one was in sight of any other.
Next rule: Never attack without adequate reconnaissance of the terrain. Custer had no idea of the terrain when he laid his plan and never considered any option except to attack.
Next rule: Never attack without reliable intelligence as to the enemy's strength. Custer did have reliable intelligence. His Crow scouts had told him "there are more Lakota than your men have bullets in their belts". Custer refused to take that seriously, derided the Crow as cowards and sent them back to Benteen's command. Most of the scouts survived.
Custer was absolutely fearless in battle, he was a fine horseman, and he was famed for his good luck. Those qualities were enough to make him an outstanding cavalry commanded during the Civil War. He always led the charge and "charge" seemed to be the only command he knew. That was greatly appreciated my his superiors and respected by his men. After the war however, he proved a terrible peace time officer. He was a strict disciplinarian, meting out harsh punishment for minor offences such as a missing button, while he himself never wore a uniform at all, preferring tailor made coats of his own design. His command had a very high rate of desertion which he thought he could end by even harsher punishment. He ordered two men shot for desertion who probably had not deserted but were only AWOL. Custer himself was often AWOL. If he wanted to go visit his wife or go hunting with Buffalo Bill it never occurred to him that he needed permission to take leave, he just packed up and went. He was court marshaled on something like 18 or 20 charge and convicted on a dozen or so. He escaped the charge of murder for the two men shot only  because the officers involved could not swear that Custer had ordered them shot in just exactly so many words, although it was clear that is what was intended and those officers were never themselves charged because it was clear they acted under Custer's orders.
Custer was the rock star of his time and like so may rock stars of today it went to his head and ended badly.

[Bear Rider]

It was a war.  The Indians always chose the wrong side in every war and so they sealed their fate.  Dee is about as Indian as I am.  Hollywood aside the idea of the noble savage was started by James Fenimoor Cooper in about the 1830s.

It goes back much further than that:

"I am as free as nature first made man,
Ere the base laws of servitude began,
When wild in woods the noble savage ran." -- The Conquest Of Granada, John Dryden, 1672

[clum sum]

The Europeans did nothing to the native Americans that they were not doing to each other. We only did it better.