Author Topic: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?  (Read 2847 times)

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Offline jlwilliams

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Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« on: September 16, 2012, 01:29:15 PM »
  I'm wondering why there are no longer, more powerful 25 caliber pistol rounds.  There are bunches of 22 and 32 rounds that have been in common use over the last hundred years.  Why not more action in the .25 size?  25acp is the 'king' of that little world.  A round that is no one's idea of all that it could be.  Best praise I've ever heard is ".....better than nothing....".  Wow, that's swell.  It's definitely not like the 25acp is so good that it deserves to be the last word in 25 caliber handgunning.
 
  Why not a 25 Long Colt?  Why not a 25 long automatic? 25 automag? A straight walled cartridge two or even three times as long as a 25acp, either rimmed or rimless.  A rimless version could stack a whole bunch into a grip that wouldn't be too thick.  1500+, maybe even creaping up on 2000fps could be done with projectiles similar to the ones made for 25acp, except they would have to be made with higher velocities in mind than the old 25acp developes.  A rimmed 25 long revolver would be a great small game gun, and a lever action carbine to match would be fine with me.  A modern counterpart to the 25-20, which was pretty popular in it's day.
 
  With the modern trend toward small caliber, high velocity, PDW type stuff; a high power .25 would certainly fit the bill for low recoil and flat shooting.
 
  I think that the 25 caliber is kind of overlooked.  Why?  There are plenty of 25 cal/6mm rifle rounds.  Why not some 25 pistol rounds that don't suck?

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2012, 02:18:13 PM »
  The 25/20 Winchester makes a pretty good handgun round, and it works great in a revolver.  Just need to get the factories to chamber it, and make some good factory loads to match.
 
  DM

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 12:17:52 AM »
25/20 is a good pistol/lever gun round.  So how come no one ever followed up with something that fills the same niche? 

Offline jedman

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 01:37:10 AM »
     I see your point,  there isnt much between 22 and 30 cal. for a pistol cartridge.
  There have been a few like the .256 mag but you could make something 25 cal. from a 22 Hornet case pretty easy.
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Offline Cemo

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 01:49:21 AM »
Where's the market? Would it offer much over the .22 and .22 Mag?
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Offline Nobade

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 02:24:52 AM »
I have often thought that what you describe would be a good idea. The 25 Stevens was a good round and quite a bit more effective on game than the 22 LR. A centerfire version of that would be a good thing. However, without getting a run of custom cases made it is kind of hard to do.

What I built is a .27 Hornet for my wife in a small Sako. That one is easy, essentially it is a 270 Ren but longer. Hornet cases blown out straight with a 90 grain flat nose bullet from Mountain Molds, very mild loads are good for 1800 fps and full power loads with the bullets paper patched will go 2300 fps.

If you wanted to do this in a revolver just figure out how long the case would have to be to allow the round to fit in the cylinder of whatever revolver you were going to use, and make it that length. A converted K-22 or a sleeved centerfire would be pretty slick. No recoil and quite effective on game as well as a lot cheaper to shoot than a 22 mag.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 03:12:53 AM »
25/20 is a good pistol/lever gun round.  So how come no one ever followed up with something that fills the same niche?

  I wouldn't say "no one ever did", because i did... 
 

 
  This is my S&W "K" frame revolver chambered in 25/20 Winchester,
 

 
  DM

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 11:28:48 AM »
Where's the market? Would it offer much over the .22 and .22 Mag?

  I think it would be a bit better than 22 Magnum and be reloadable.  Not ten times better, but a little better.

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 11:34:09 AM »
25/20 is a good pistol/lever gun round.  So how come no one ever followed up with something that fills the same niche?

  I wouldn't say "no one ever did", because i did... 
 

 
  This is my S&W "K" frame revolver chambered in 25/20 Winchester,
 

 
  DM

  By "....no one ever did..." I didn't mean that no one ever made 25/20 revolvers. I meant no one ever made a modern round to fill the niche left by the 25/20 riding off into the sunset.
 
  Nice job.  I'll bet that's a fine little lead delivery system.  Why can't we buy something kind of like that right off the shelf?  There's my beef.
 
  On the auto loader fron; imagine how many rounds of a straight walled rimless 25 you could fit into a Glock grip.  Probably two dozen.  Sarah Brady would shed a single tear if she evn thought of it  ;) .

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 12:31:41 PM »
FNH Five seveN, that about what you want, or does it need to be a straight wall rimmed cartridge? Twenty of those rascals in a reasonable sized pistol. Plink, target practice, hunting small game, trapline, self defense, pretty much covers it all does it not?
 
Perhaps Ruger needs to put it in a Blackhawk to make it a legit woods round.
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Offline cpileri

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 12:54:25 PM »
Maybe hot load the 5.75 Velo Dog?
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 12:54:48 AM »
FNH Five seveN, that about what you want, or does it need to be a straight wall rimmed cartridge? Twenty of those rascals in a reasonable sized pistol. Plink, target practice, hunting small game, trapline, self defense, pretty much covers it all does it not?
 
Perhaps Ruger needs to put it in a Blackhawk to make it a legit woods round.

 
  I know that there are lots of options.  There is the 5.7, the 22 Jet and what not in the 22 cal range.  There are and have been plenty of 30 to 32 caliber options from 23 colt to the 327.  My point is that there are none in 25.  That caliber only has the 25 acp and briefly the 25 NAA, both pocket pistol rounds.  I'll also add that I'm not so much wanting to get one as I am just wondering why no longer, more powerful 25 caliber cartridges were brought out in the whole 20th century. 

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 07:24:06 PM »
I'm going to guess that a .25 round could not bring anything to the table that could not be addressed by a .32 or  or a 22rimfire for that matter. What would you do with a .25 long that could not be done with the .32 family? The size of the gun itself changes little from .25 to .32. Recoil changes little, weight changes little and when it comes to slow pistol rounds diameter does make a difference.
 
I believe what little demand for a .25 long was met by both the .22 long rifle and later a .22 mag.
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 01:31:52 AM »
  No question that the 22 mag basically replaced the 25 Stevens.  I think the 25 was a little heavier projo, but I'm not sure.  Best guess as to why the 22 won out is that manufacturers could use the same rifled blanks for more than one cartridge.  At least that sounds plausible.
 
  I won't argue that a 25 would do something that isn't covered well enough by other rounds.  There are lots of rounds that have overlapping territory.  That certainly doesn't stop ammo companies from continually introducing the newest way to skin the same cat.  Show me a new round that does something different from something that was already available.  I just don't see why the ammo and gun companies have historicaly had a blind spot over the quarter inch bore size.  I'd think they would have been hawking whizz bang newest way to skin the cat guns and ammo in that bore, but they never did.

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 06:15:01 AM »
You have a point on the marketing angle. That is sorta where I was headed with my comment that it isn't bringing anything to the table, 'cause if it was, the gun companies would be jumping all over it.
 
 
I am one to believe that the military is the primary reason behind all successful cartridges. Troop training exposes untold thousands to a particular round. The military is pretty good at brainwashing people, it makes sense to convince a troop they have excelant equipment in there hands. Then there is the surplus side of the equation, cheap loaded ammo and cheap components. Third you have tooling and inventory that is already paid for at the factories, easy enough to take .30 bore tubes ( inventory otherwise unusable, witness the fence around Grant's Farm) and chamber them any way you want. The .38 /.357 and .40 S&W are the only rounds that don't fit this mold.
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Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 03:58:31 PM »
Isn't the 256 Win Mag just what you need? It is a great little rifle round, make the cases easy in one stroke (I think) from 22 Rem Jet from PRVI...cheap too...

Offline Nobade

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 02:26:50 AM »
Kind of big and very high pressure. I agree with the OP, a rimmed 25 ACP the length of a 38 spl with .257" dia. bullets would be really neat. A reloadable 22 mag, with more hit.
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline deer140

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 01:51:26 AM »
Ok,I have been working on just what you are looking for no fancy dies needed, one stroke forming, no recoil.Right now have a t/c barrel for it a lot of fun to play with. I need to do a little more work on it.Have killed pigs up to about 60-70 lbs.50-60 yards does ok.If I can get bugs out will chamber a rifle for it.

Offline deer140

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2012, 02:24:04 AM »
After thinking about it I rembered that there was a 25/25 stevens round many years ago. You could get some brass make for it. Last box of 25/25 I saw was 175.00 for 50 rounds.

Offline Nobade

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2012, 03:00:21 AM »
25 Hornet with the body shortened enough to fit in a revolver cylinder would have much cheaper and easily available brass.....
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2012, 11:56:12 AM »
25 Hornet with the body shortened enough to fit in a revolver cylinder would have much cheaper and easily available brass.....

  WHY?  When we already have the 25/20 and it works just fine in a revolver.
 
  DM

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2012, 02:29:03 AM »
  Just to be clear; I'm not looking to do this, just wondering why it has never been done.
 
  The .25 caliber niche has (for generations) been dominated by the 25acp.  A cartridge that can hardly be said to be all that could be.  In fact, the best I've ever heard any 25 acp proponent say about it's ballistics is....."It's better than nothing"  Wow.  Stunning endorsement there.  Considering the oal of the 25acp is just under an inch; how much imagination would it have taken to make a similar round that's about an inch and a quarter long.  You could rpobably get about a third again as much powder into the case with the same size bullet.   

Offline Nobade

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2012, 02:49:13 AM »
25 Hornet with the body shortened enough to fit in a revolver cylinder would have much cheaper and easily available brass.....

  WHY?  When we already have the 25/20 and it works just fine in a revolver.
 
  DM

Haha - you're sure right about that. But why? Well, it is the wildcat forum, and because you can! If I actually did one I'd do it like yours and make it a 25-20. But I also like converting Remington 580 actions to small centerfires and the 25-20 is too long for that. So a little shortened 25 Hornet would be kinda neat for that. Mainly all we're doing here is musing anyway, so why not?
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline briannmilewis

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 05:13:13 PM »
Because we can is the only explanation necessary ;D

Offline deer140

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 02:55:53 AM »
Hi, After looking in my gun room I found what you are looking for.1 will work in a m-1 carbine and and a amt 30 carbine pistol. a 30 carbine necked down to .25 works well on hogs and small deer out to 100 yards.2-The other will work very good in a wheelgun or leveraction.Haven taken hogs,large deer and one 2 yr. old elk cow ,elk at about 50 yards.This one I don't say what it is, one of the big boys may want it.If you do want one would be Blackhawk or s&w.This I might would make for you.Do know how much when I made mine prices were a lot less than today.

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 08:50:31 AM »
Because we can is the only explanation necessary ;D

 That works for so many projects.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 08:54:34 AM »
how about a 256 winchester ?
6mm TCU
mauser made one for the broom handle I think as did China.
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Offline twoshooter

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Re: Why is there no .25 long pistol round?
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »
There is a certain "magnumitis" for one thing, the idea that bigger is always better. There was mention of the 30 or 32 calibers, an let me point out that they too are mostly orphans. I love the 32/20, and even the 32 H&R, but they never caught on. The 327 Mag was another attempt to upgrade the little guns, but was largely stomped on by the 357 guys. In fact, there is pretty much nothing between the 22mag and the 357. I think there are a lot of guns that are sold, fulfill someones fantasy, and set forever in a drawer. They are never really used , so their utility is mostly on paper. The fix is in so to speak, as anything that does not meet the "self defense round" criteria is somehow useless, when in fact it is exactly the opposite. Maybe one round in a million is actually used in a self defense situation vs the BILLIONS of 22 LR rounds fired. A sub-35 caliber handgun/ rifle makes very good sense, very practical. Unfortunately, most firearms are sold for , as I said before, fantasies , not practical utility. When I was young I thought that the 22 mag had to be the most worthless round ever invented. Later in life, a synthetic stocked stainless steel 22mag became the most used firearm I owned for 20 years, until my grandson really really "needed" it.  ;) 8) Now that niche is at present co-occupied by a Hornet and a 357 Handi Rifle. There is a lot of space between a 34 gr Hornet @2850fps and a 140gr JHP @ 1650. I share your sentiment entirely, when the little Marlin CL's in 25/20 and 32/20 came out in the 80's I was in no financial shape to pick one up, I always regret that. I wish they had more to offer. Maybe someday someone will realize that you don't have to go to the grocery store in an F350 dually, and that just because you don't, it doesn't mean you want a PRIUS. 
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