Author Topic: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...  (Read 1615 times)

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Offline keith44

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hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« on: September 16, 2012, 09:08:12 PM »
I am returning to rifle hunting (using a rifle as primary gun) after 10 years of handgun hunting.  I have been using a Ruger Super Red Hawk with 7 1/2 inch barrel, chambered in .44 magnum.  My two best shots were:


80 paces, deer quartering away (mis-judged lead) hit near side ham, bullet exited in front of offside shoulder.  Meat recovered: one ham, one shoulder, all else deemed a loss.


Three does ten to thirty paces, each one shot = belly flop.


The loads in question were both running about 1,100 fps, one a 300 grain xtp, the other 240 gr cast swc.  The xtp destroyed much too much meat.  A couple years ago I tried cast bullets in the 45-70.  Two deer, ten shots total, all hard hits to chest and shoulder area, both ran in excess of 50 yards, both were eventually recovered. 
Loads were running 1,800 fps. 


I want to give the 45-70 a chance to redeem itself.  This time using 300 grain Hornady hollow points.  I want the deer to drop when hit like with my .44, or my .25'06 that I hunted before I switched to handguns.  So I am thinking 1,800 fps at the top end (I was thinking 2,100 fps, but doubt the bullet would hold up and penetrate properly to the vitals).  On the lower end of muzzle velocity I am leaning toward 1,600 fps, but there seems to be evidence that 1,200 fps would be a better choice (the velocity of the 300 grain .44 magnum load that penetrated the length of the deer at nearly 80 yards)


I welcome your thoughts and input...max range expected is 50 yards.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 12:14:21 AM »
Bang flops are best created with either shot placement to the "electric center" or shock with fast bullets.

Your 45-70 is fully capaple of bang flops under both situations. Personally I don't use the 300HP's, prefering the 400 and 405 at 1900 fps. But the 300 is fully capaple as well, factory ballistics are about 1800 so 1600 is actually a pretty light loading. It will still do the job, but the bullet is not a hand gun bullet and may not preform as your thinking that slowly.

I have dropped nearly every deer I have shot with my maxi's bang flop/DRT what ever you want to call it. 180g at 2200 fps muzzle.

CW
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Offline jpuke

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 02:32:49 AM »
In 2008 I shot two deer with my 45-70, 415 gr bullet (RCBS 405-45-FN) loaded to 1830 fps.  Both required only one shot, one at 80 yards the other at 70 yards, and both ran about 60 yards after that but left a VERY large blood trail.

In 2009 I shot another at 120 yards, same load, same result - one shot, 60 yard dash, easy recovery.

Last year, I shot three deer with a 45/70, loaded to 1700 fps, same bullet.  The first was a 30 yard shot, right behind the shoulder, quartering away slightly.  She dropped about ten feet after being shot because the bullet broke her off side leg.  Expired about 15 seconds later.

2nd deer in 2011 was shot at 70 yards, one shot behind the shoulder, ran 40 yards.

3rd deer in 2011 was 35 yards away, one shot behind the shoulder, ran about 100 yards because I hit him quartering towards me rather than the quartering away shot I thought I had (last light fooled me) and the bullet exited his belly rather than the off side shoulder I thought I would hit. 

I really don't expect the bang-flop with my 45/70.  What I do expect is that it will pass through completely, leave a large blood trail, and not destroy meat.  In 2010 I tried my 30-06 again for fun but was disappointed by all the meat loss and went back to the 45/70.  I'm using the same load this year.



Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 06:27:14 AM »
jpuke, I want the deer down within 15 yards.  Where I hunt if they make much more than 30 yards recovery is difficult at best.  DRT, bang flop, or drop in tracks is what every other caliber has delivered.  Including a 30-30 I used as a kid.  There is no reason the 45-70 should not deliver the same performance within 100 yards. 


cw, last load I tried in the 45-70 was hard cast (first mistake) 405 grain round nose flat points (second error) running 1,800 fps.  One buck (field dressed weight of 115 pounds) took six through the shoulders, and heart lung area and had to be tracked 65 yards.  Postmortem showed clean holes through heart, lungs, and both shoulder blades (with no breaking of bone, just drilled holes)  Off side or exit holes showed zero sign of expansion.  So IMO a lighter bullet, of lighter construction, should deliver more energy into the vitals, and hopefully drop the deer quicker.  Targeted area has always been where shoulders, spine and the top of the lungs are close together.  This is usually the big "off button" for deer.


First load tested today consisted of the 300 grain bullet and 52.5 grains of IMR 3031. Load data says this should give 1,700 fps.  The gun I am using is being fired with open sights.  First target was a drink can set at 25 paces.  Hit center with full caliber hole through can.  Second shot I jerked and the shot went low into a 4 inch oak log, centered below the can about one inch.  The can flew straight up into the air and was torn into two pieces from the impact of wood splinters, and the bullet protruded through the log, but did not fully exit.   ;D   I might add another 1/2 grain of powder, but in my mind this should do the trick nicely.


Thanks for the replies.
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Offline Land_Owner

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 11:08:39 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but the 45-70 was putting Buffalo on the ground for Decades in the black powder era.  Nothing new in that and should be a good-to-go caliber in this smokeless powder era.  Aim small miss small.  Bullet placement is KING so practice-practice-practice.

Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 11:46:38 AM »
The 45-70-500 was a military cartridge from about 1872, and yes at aproximately 1,200 to maybe 1,400 fps was effective for Buffalo.  Even today these same (67 grains of powder and 525 grain bullets) loads or similar are fired at 1,000 yard targets successfully.  What I am after is the bang flop DRT (dead right there) effect I get from .44 Magnum loads.  This has proven difficult with past attempts, even with shot placement being identical. 

The problem is .44 magnum bullets are designed to expand at velocities from 750 fps to 1,500 fps, while most .458 diameter bullets (proper diameter for .45-70, .458 Win Mag, and .458 Lott etc) are designed for heavy game and velocities the .45-70 can not achieve, so there is little shock effect from the bullet impact, and like bow hunting you must wait for the blood loss / lack of oxygen to take effect.  With Hornady's 300 grain hollow point having a maximum recommended velocity of 1,900 fps this bullet holds promise of delivering enough shock to cause the rapid loss of blood pressure to have the desired effect.  ;)

Been studying this for three years.
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 12:02:45 PM »
kinda talking out of turn here since
i don't load 45/70 and don't own one.
i would think way back then, they didn't
have the harder alloys to cast with that
we have now. maybe a softer bullet
would get you where you need to go?
i read an article a while back where
ross seyfried was casting bullets with
dead soft pure lead for the nose and
hard alloy for the shank section.
maybe that would work for you?
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 12:17:04 PM »
and we have a winner!!

Yes a softer alloy should work, something like a lead tin alloy of 20 to1 ratio.  But since I have read so much about the effectiveness of the Gould 330 gr hollow point for deer I wanted to try the jacketed 300 grain bullets before buying a custom mould and going through the casting, and lubing and load development.  Another avenue I may also consider is paper patched bullets
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 12:22:06 PM »
i didn't realize there was a contest :-[
just trying to be helpful.


what do i get?   door  #3 ?


a teaspoon of 2400 ?  ;D
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »
Have you tried the 400g Speers?  Would you like me to send you some to try out? 

I have seen the 300 HP's over expand I simply don't like HP's for deer hunting.  ;)

I  load the 400's to 1600 in the handi with excellent success and reasonable recoil.

The 300HP @ 1600 just may be the ticket. I do not know. I do know the same bullet at 2200 is not so great. ::)

(I may have some 300 hp's too if you would like them. Your call)

CW
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 12:48:31 PM »
CW, after what I saw with the 300 grain bullet at about 1,700 fps, and the accuracy potential I will not push it beyond 1,800 fps, and may slow it down to 1,600 fps, depending on some penetration test results.  I'll post pics later, but hitting and penetrating a 6 inch thick piece of oak caused jacket seperation at 1,700 fps.  A raking shot that gets a hip needs to pass through and get to the boiler room.  Now there is exactly ONE condition where I would take such a shot on a deer.  That is the first shot did not do as intended, and the deer is making a hasty exit.
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 12:51:39 PM »
i didn't realize there was a contest :-[
just trying to be helpful.


what do i get?   door  #3 ?


a teaspoon of 2400 ?  ;D

hmm, door number 3 seems to be broken.  If you want to claim a teaspoon of 2400 in person you can.
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 12:57:36 PM »
hmmmm. . . .


gimme a bit to mull it over. . . .
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »
that's better!
a bowl of ice cream always
helps me decide.


i'll pass on the spoon of powder
and try for 10 empty cases!
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Offline Bugflipper

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 09:30:34 PM »
 I don't know if you cast, or buy them. If you cast I have good luck out of ranch dog 350 gr 6 cavity mold. It drops as .461 and doesn't need sized. It has been extremely accurate from 1500- 2000. I haven't shot them over that. For deer you need to transfer the energy into them. The 45-70 wastes the energy because the weight of the bullet just punches right through. HP cast is known for breaking the tip off and not expanding. That's not always the case, but a lot of times folks complain about it.
 I have tried 2 different things to get the bullet to deliver enough energy to a whitetail. The first was a piece of paper in the mold about 3/4 the way up the nose. You trim the paper and load as normal after it's cast. On entry it opens up and the main piece will mushroom. The two halves just go their separate ways. The base exits. It produced good results of 10-30 yard runs but no bang flops behind the shoulder with WW for me.


What I do now is cast pure 000 buckshot. I put them in the oven at 500 then drop in the nose and put WW on top of them. With the flat nose they expand pretty good. I have had 3 bang flops and 1 18 yarder. They are ran at about 2000 fps or so. My chrono gave up on me so I am just guessing. I haven't recovered one from a deer but they leave an exit hole about an inch or so. The inside is usually in bad shape, No excessive meat damage yet, just a normal entrance and expanded exit so far.
Molon labe

Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 05:53:00 AM »
dual alloy bullets?  ( buckshot with the bullet cast around them )


I've cast several times for the 45-70, but so far not happy with the bullet performance, buying them did not improve performance, so I switched to the jacketed 300 grain bullets for now.
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM »
This is the bullet (300 gr Hornady) that penetrated 6 inches of oak.  Jacket fully separated, but stayed close to core



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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 06:02:40 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but the 45-70 was putting Buffalo on the ground for Decades in the black powder era.  Nothing new in that and should be a good-to-go caliber in this smokeless powder era.  Aim small miss small.  Bullet placement is KING so practice-practice-practice.

Good post , was thinking the same thing . heap big gun for deer it's not if it will go stem to stern but will it take a couple or three with one shot.
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 06:27:22 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but the 45-70 was putting Buffalo on the ground for Decades in the black powder era.  Nothing new in that and should be a good-to-go caliber in this smokeless powder era.  Aim small miss small.  Bullet placement is KING so practice-practice-practice.

Good post , was thinking the same thing . heap big gun for deer it's not if it will go stem to stern but will it take a couple or three with one shot.


A .44 Magnum 240 grain SWC launched at 1,100 fps will pass through a deer stem to stern.  Heck I've read articles where 415 grain bullets have passed through African game when launched at 1,200 to 1,600 fps.


The search is to find something that expands rapidly, and imparts energy (shock) inside the animal.  The premise is this :  A .44 magnum launches my handloads at 1,100 fps.  Inside 50 yards (ranges from 7 feet to 55 paces) produce telling effect (that is the animal drops at the shot or within 10 feet)  This has been noted with both 240 grain bullets as well as 300 grain Hornady XTP's.  A .45-70 loaded to launch a 300 grain bullet at 1,700 to 1,900 fps should at least equal the performance of the .44 Magnum.  The issue seems to be finding a bullet of light enough construction (soft enough lead (or lead core) and or thin enough jacket to expand on thin skinned game.
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Offline Bugflipper

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 06:58:51 AM »
dual alloy bullets?  ( buckshot with the bullet cast around them )


I've cast several times for the 45-70, but so far not happy with the bullet performance, buying them did not improve performance, so I switched to the jacketed 300 grain bullets for now.


Yes sir. The pure lead ball is warmed up so they stick together. It's dropped in the warmed mold with wheel weight alloy poured in. Then water dropped. A hard exterior encasing a soft mid-front section. BHN of exterior 18, BHN of ball 5. They mushroom like a foster style shotgun slug in water. Just an assumption of the same in deer, judging from the exit hole. 




Had to edit. The ball is warmed so the wheel weight alloy will stick to it. If not you get a lot of flops. The mold gets 3 or 4 straight WW pours until it's heated enough to drop uniform bullets. Then the balls are dropped in and WW poured over them. Store bought buckshot won't work very well because it has a graphite coating that the WW doesn't adhere to as well. A round ball with a big enough diameter will be at the exact same spot towards the nose every time and is perfectly centered.
Molon labe

Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 07:40:50 AM »
I'll look into that...

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Offline jpuke

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 03:54:07 AM »
What I forgot to mention, because I figured you might not want to do the extra work is to try the paper-patched bullet.  All of the deer that I mentioned taking in my previous post were taken with a paper patched bullet cast of very soft alloy (30:1).  Entry holes were a perfect 45 cal. and the exits were 1.25-1.5". 

Paper patched bullets might be a little less work than the dual alloy idea and you can drive them up to 2200 fps (faster with harder alloys).    As has already been mentioned, it looks like you'll have to pick your shot if you want the bang-flop with a 45/70.  I just haven't seen it happen in my experience.  Good luck!

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 04:33:52 AM »
Keith,

I was wondering if the care package of bullets arrived yet?

CW
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 04:46:23 AM »
no sign of it yet, but mail is slow getting here. 

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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 05:25:15 AM »
I'm rushing it I think.... I only shipped Thirsday. So tomorrow or Wednesday you will see it! Img not the most patient person. ::)

CW
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Offline jhalcott

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 09:40:07 AM »
 Bang flops with the 45-70 have only happened with dual alloy or split bullets for me. Split bullets are those with a bit of paper or aluminum foil held between the mold halves as the soft lead alloy is poured in. The dual alloy slugs are soft nose alloy followed by a ww base (using normal base pour molds!). Even 20/1 - lead /tin alloy seems to be hard for consistent bang flop of deer. Soft 30/1 paper patched slugs SHOULD work fine at moderate speeds, especially at the close(under 100 yards) ranges you are shooting. I can tell you this, I've SEEN more bang flops on television than in the fields I hunt! Every once in a while a deer will take a certain instant death shot and run about 100 yards into a briar patch! NO MATTER what bullet is used! I've hunted public land and had a deer run less than 60 yards. I got to the deer as another "hunter" was gutting it. I now shoot for the high shoulder shot that shocks the spine and drops the deer instantly (usually)!

Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 12:32:54 PM »
jhalcott,
I have been sucessful in filling my tags for 27 of my 35 deer hunting seasons.  That's aproximately 54 deer, only 14 have not been down within 15 yards.  Like your experience most do not drop immediately, but that is my goal.

I have come believe that softer bullets, at any speed are the best suited to the task.  The minimum impact velocity seems to be 900 fps, but the most likely speed to produce the desired effect is 1,200 fps. (at impact, not the muzzle) Also, Yes the high shoulder shot (what I call the "big off button") is where the spine, major arteries, and skeletal structure are all in the same place, this is the most likely shot placement to actually drop the deer. 
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 12:37:12 PM »
cwlongshot,

WOW!!  THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

A treasure trove of goodies, some similar to what I have on hand, several I have not tried yet.  Mail came as I was getting ready to leave for work, I'll post my thoughts on them when I have time to sort and load a few.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 07:06:57 AM »
cwlongshot,

WOW!!  THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

A treasure trove of goodies, some similar to what I have on hand, several I have not tried yet.  Mail came as I was getting ready to leave for work, I'll post my thoughts on them when I have time to sort and load a few.

Your very welcome Brother!   ;) Just spreadin' the "love"...

Actually it's a little "Pay it forward".
 
 Petemi on the board here and I PM a bit. Last week he sent me some brass. Just cause he knows I have a rifle in that caliber and can use it. (THANK YOU AGAIN PETE!!) So, I saw a chance to "repay him" as he didn't want anything for the brass.

I hope there is enough there to get a idea of what will work best for you!

CW
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Offline keith44

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Re: hmm, how to duplicate past performance with a different gun...
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
There is enough to play with, and get an idea, and then some.

never tried a pay it forward based on internet contacts, locally I always share the bounty of my garden, I've paid for meals at resturants for strangers, hmm... This has potential.

Thanks again, brother
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