Small caliber vs large caliber

[jeepmann1948]

Since everyone discussed the poorly placed large vs small caliber voiced their opinion,lets try another aspect.
Which do you think kills faster with a properly placed shot?
1 - A small caliber high velocity round (Example   243 Win)
2-  A large caliber  low velocity round (Example   45-70)
Modification:
 I think I did not give enough information for my post
I am a firm believer in the hydrostatic shock theory of a small caliber high velocity round creating more tissue and organ damage than a large heavy bullet that passes thru with albeit a large wound channel and exits leaving a blood trail which does help trailing, but I do not like to trail .Here in Texas we have too many things that have thorns to enjoy a trail.

Please speak from personal experience not from magazine articles from biased gun writers
Thanks
George

[knight0334]

I don't think it matters one bit.

Death isn't an exact science.  One critter may survive with a heart shot, while the next may die instantly from a hit to centermass that didn't hit any vitals.

I shot a woodchuck with my .223 that blew off it's left front leg.  The bullet didn't go into the chest cavity at all.  I caught it while it was sitting up, facing to the right of me - it was dead on the spot.

I've also shot them with my 45-75 and 45-120 where they have pretty much exploded, but the whistlepig was trying to drag the front half of his body down the hole.

The best thing you can do is put the bullet where it is most likely to kill as humanely as possible.

[Shu]

If a bullet of proper construction is placed right it doesn't really matter. Death occurs.
How dead is dead?
 Death can be almost instantaneous or an auto response like adrenaline can make it appear to take a few moments.
 
Not sure what you are trying to achieve with your questions, your last was very similiar and answered very well.
 
Shot placement is critical, a shooter must know and be familiar with his abilities and if he isn't sure he can make a shot he should pass it up. Caliber is almost like preferences of blond, brunette or redhead.

[Mike in Virginia]

I realize an animal and a human are different in terms of what it takes to stop them.  However, our soldiers found out that the .223 is not nearly the stopper as a .308.  An enemy shot with a .223 is likely to drag himself out of the line of fire before he croaks, where as the M14 round puts him down NOW.  Both projectiles being hardball.  Same thing applies to the military's switch to the 9mm from the .45.  Now you might be thinking if the smaller calibers don't work as well, why don't they switch back?  Because the little guns are easier for the girl soldiers to hit with, they can carry more rounds, and they can comply with NATO.  All silly reasons IMO. 

[petemi]

For me, it's really not a question of what I think kills faster, it's a matter of what I prefer to use.  I tend to favor the large, slower calibers and use them when the situation permits.  I believe both large and small kill well within their designed parameters, and I definitely use my medium and small bores.  I guess I'm addicted to the BANG....(sip of coffee)..................WHOMP..FLOP as opposed to the BANG WHOMP FLOP.

Pete

[jedman]

  I remember a article wrote by Jim Carmicheal years ago about a theory he came up with after shooting hundreds of big game animals.  He thought if the bullet impacts the animal at the exact time that the heart is pumping blood to the brain and organs that the game would drop on the spot and die very quickly.
 He used many of his own hunting experiences as examples, describing many animals that are normally hard to put down with the largest guns sometimes are pole axed by smaller less powerful cartridges even handguns when this hydraulic like shock of blood hits the brain.
  He claimed to have examinded the brains of animals that fell like this and it proved his theory.
  He was talking about normal heart lung area shots on animals.  I know in my own hunting I have seen similar effects that sometime are hard to explain.  I have seen 75 lb. antelope take a bullet from a 300 Weatherby thru the chest and take off like a scalded cat and run 40-50 yards and I also dropped a large antelope with a 357 mag at over 100 yards that dropped instantly and never quivered from a hit just above the heart.
Like others have said on killing , a shot to the right place and death will occure, I havent seen any caliber that will kill like lightning everytime.
   Jedman

[scratchmark]

I feel alot has to do with bullet construction. I've used match bullets for hunting since the early '80's and have never tracked more than 40yrds. They come apart fairly easy upon impact resulting in massive shock aka " buckshot in a bullet". I've hit deer with 300gr bullets of hunting design and have had to track for up to 200yrds. On the other hand fast can be a bad thing compared to a slower bullet. Would you rather be hit by a fast icepick or a slow swinging sledgehammer? just my experience
 
All the critters in my avatar were shot with 150gr sierra mk bthp and all dropped in there tracks from ranges of 20yrds to 200yrds within 2hrs. That was a great morning!

[ncloader88]

I believe that it depends heavily on your circumstances.  When you expect that you may be presented with a 150-200+ yard shot, use the light and fast.  When you are in the woods in thick brush, use the slow and heavy.  I would never intentionally take a shot through dense cover, but I also want my bullet to be able to push through that little twig that I can't see in low light.  Here in NC, lots of people are in their stands with a .243 when they know they will not be presented with a shot farther than 40 yards.  Nothing wrong with that, but I would rather use the "lowly" 44mag in this situation, slinging 250-310 grains of lead (you'd be surprised at what people outside of this forum say about this caliber).  That is the beauty of the handi, you have options with half the cost.

[RIF]

These are complete different methods of killing.

One is killing by hydrostatic shock and massive immediate trauma with a wound channel many times the diameter of the bullet.  The other is killing by penetration and deep cutting. 

Try shooting a row of milk jugs with a 45-70 and then do the same using a 243.  You will find that the 45-70 penetrates many times further than the 243.  But the 243 causes much, much more initial destruction than the 45-70 does. 

That is why it would not be appropriate to hunt rabbits for the table with a 243.  But you can hunt deer.  That is why it would not be appropriate to hunt water buffalo with a 243, but a 45-70 would be much better.

The laws of physics determines this and it is not my opinion.  A 243 Win makes a much more effective deer rifle in every regard especially if one wants to kill deer instantly, and I have studied 'brush busting' at length as well. The 45-70 is not even in the same league as a 243 Win when it comes to deer hunting.


Now if you are hunting deer and possibly game such a moose and large bear, a 45-70 would be a much better choice than a 243.  But I can think of much better rifles than a 45-70 in these situations, namely a 30-06. 

I do not enjoy losing game, or watching a deer go over the hill and jump a fence on private land, I do not enjoy tracking a deer all night with dogs, I do not enjoy arguing with other hunters when they are tagging a deer I shot, I do not enjoy thinking about the grief I caused an animal I truly love. 

What I do like is being in touch with my roots and nostalgia.  That is why I hunt with some primitive arms.  I know their limitations, and I know that given their limitations they kill game.  The 45-70 is not the ideal firearm.  It requires the shooter do many things in order that they even the playing field.  That is why I like them, but that does not make the 45-70 a deer laser beam either. 





 

[gstewart44]

My Properly Placed Shot is going to be just under the ear.  99% of my shots are 80 yds and less.   If I can't take this shot reliably I usually don't shoot.   I prefer the game to DRT.   I have done both the small/fast version and the big/slower version.   DRT is DRT.    I have many swampy areas where I hunt and don't want a critter bleeding all over and getting swamp muck inside and exit hole through the shoulders/ribcage.   

[RIF]

I am not trying to come off holier than though.  But you WILL wound some deer shooting them in the head at 80 yards.  I have been around a long time, and I have seen it all.  I have seen the hotshot head shooters blow off deers noses and jaws.  There was a famous head shooter here years ago who bayed a real large black bear and waited for it to rare up and  he shot it right in the head.  It dropped like a sack of taters and he ran up to claim his prize, the bear woke up and shook the life nearly out of him with the last two inches of his lower jaw, until another hunter shot the bear...properly...in the heart!  They mediflighted him to town and he spent three months in the hospital the first few days he was almost a goner. 

So you have never lost a deer shooting it in the head at 80 yards?  Whenever I try to hold on a deer they are constantly darting, twitching, and moving.  Is this something you feel is ethical to teach beginning hunters or just those that graduated sniper school? 

I am just an average shot.  I have average off the shelf equipment.  I have aging eyes.  I just cannot ever imagine trying to head shoot a deer at 80 yards unless it was a matter of starvation (which I am very far from at the moment )

[Ranger99]

myself, i shoot the pump station on deer.
i don't like bloody bruised up cuts of meat
that look like roadkill.
hogs get it in the noggin with a firearm.
with a bow they get the pump station with
a fixed blade cut-on-entry broadhead.
squirrels and bunnies in the noggin.
i always shoot my doves in the eye.


i've used large and small, but i won't use
blow-up or hyper-expanding bullets except
on varmints.


practice-practice-practice
repeat

[cwlongshot]

ANOTHER EXCELLENT TOPIC GEORGE!!!!


I am defienately a torque guy, torque does the work, HP is pretty...or like the golf analegy that says you Drive for show and putt for dough...

I like large diameter, heavy for caliber bullets. My preferance is for 35 and bigger calibers. I do not like head shots on big game. I like high shoulder/base of the neck. Do it right, it works like a light switch.If you miss by a inch or two, they never go more then a few steps. Miss by 2 to 3" they still don't go too far, cause there is a big hole thru and thru. 

I have probably done this 75 times since pop showed me, never once did it let me down. ONCE, just once, I shot a buck in the head... We tracked and chaced it for miles. I saw it twice, I shot its jaw off.  I never got another shot off...
I never will forget that and I never will do it again.

Try a shot at a steep angle with a little bullet at top velocity... My big heavy bullet will travel thru and very likely still exit. The small light one, may never reach the vitals, will likely leave a nasty challow wound that will end up like my head shot deer...lost to all.

CW

[twoshooter]

I have shot somewhere around 80-85 deer I think. I have shot several in the head, one I had to shoot twice because I was too low and took of the jaw also. I have no problem with a head shot, I can reliably hit a squirrel head at 40 yards, a deers is not exactly a challenge, and about 60 yards is the max I shoot like that. Many never even jumped or anything, just dropped straight down. I have shot deer with a 45/70 and a Whelan that left holes through their heart and they still ran 60-80 yards. The ones that were "killed " the fastest I guess were shot with a 270 Win, and a 7mm Rem mag. I also lost both shoulders and a chunk of loin due to bloodshot meat and bone fragments. The ones I shot in the head were perfect, no internal mess- the heart, kidneys, everything was as clean as a whistle. So was the hide.
    If I had to pick just one gun to hunt whitetail, it would be a 444, with 240 gr SP, and the shot I would use most often is high in the shoulder. That is an anchor shot, they go nowhere. It most often takes out the spine, does not make for a messy cleanup, and there is no tracking. If they are still alive when I get to them I can pop them in the head with a pistol shot or cut their throat. That don't appeal much to bone hunters, but then I never hunted for bone. I got dentures.

[keith44]

Ok, this is going to sound a bit like bragging, but read this entire post, before you accuse me of exaggerating.  I have tried both small and fast as well as big heavy and slow.  Both are effective, both have their place.  My goal with any bullet fired into game is to drop the animal where it stands.  I have had great success with .25'06 loaded with 100 grain bullets running 3,100 fps.  These are destructive and much meat is lost, but a hit is easily registered.  No Deer took a single step with this load.  However the downside is it is BORING!!!  If ya can see it, you can kill it.  This is not a satisfying hunt to me.  So For the most of the past 10 years I used a .44 Magnum.  240 grain cast SWC, loaded to 1,100 fps.  Out to 80 yards, if I am careful with shot placement it is also a "Bang Flop" arrangement.  Meat loss is much less, usually.  One deer I shot with a 300 grain XTP loaded to a muzzle velocity of 1,050 fps, was a total loss as far as meat was concerned.  I mis-judged the lead and hit him in the hip as he was quartering away.  The bullet exited the off-side shoulder and all meat along the bullet was badly bruised and full of bone fragments.  Again bang flop, tag it.


So as far as I'm concerned shot placement is more critical than how heavy or fast the bullet is.  Bullet construction?? Sure that is also a factor.  A heavy hard bullet needs a hard object to expand on, a bullet of lighter construction needs less resistance to expand.

[Fred243]

If a bullet of proper construction is placed right it doesn't really matter. Death occurs.
How dead is dead?
 Death can be almost instantaneous or an auto response like adrenaline can make it appear to take a few moments.
 
Not sure what you are trying to achieve with your questions, your last was very similiar and answered very well.
 
Shot placement is critical, a shooter must know and be familiar with his abilities and if he isn't sure he can make a shot he should pass it up. Caliber is almost like preferences of blond, brunette or redhead.

+1  agreed !!

[gstewart44]

I am not trying to come off holier than though.  But you WILL wound some deer shooting them in the head at 80 yards.  I have been around a long time, and I have seen it all.  I have seen the hotshot head shooters blow off deers noses and jaws.  There was a famous head shooter here years ago who bayed a real large black bear and waited for it to rare up and  he shot it right in the head.  It dropped like a sack of taters and he ran up to claim his prize, the bear woke up and shook the life nearly out of him with the last two inches of his lower jaw, until another hunter shot the bear...properly...in the heart!  They mediflighted him to town and he spent three months in the hospital the first few days he was almost a goner. 

So you have never lost a deer shooting it in the head at 80 yards?  Whenever I try to hold on a deer they are constantly darting, twitching, and moving.  Is this something you feel is ethical to teach beginning hunters or just those that graduated sniper school? 

I am just an average shot.  I have average off the shelf equipment.  I have aging eyes.  I just cannot ever imagine trying to head shoot a deer at 80 yards unless it was a matter of starvation (which I am very far from at the moment )

Sorry for any confusion....let me clarify that 90 %  of the game I take is Wild Hog - anywhere from 60 to 300+ pounds.   Where we hunt is the northern boundary of the Okefenokee swamp so it is very wet and mucky with scattered high spots of semi dry land.    We have several dozen permanent large stands set up and they do function quite well as solid sniper nests.     The shots I take on the hogs are with a Remington 760  in 3006.      I am very comfortable and confident with this set up for the hogs.     Just under the ear of the hog is where the spine enters the base of the skull.   It has proven to be a DRT shot for me.   I have had the same bullet on bigger hogs fail to exit when shot through the shoulder/shield leaving a scant blood trail.
 
I usually take deer every two or three years or so.   The last three I got were offhand shots and with my 30-30 Handi.   Two were high shoulder/base neck shots that dropped the venison immediately.  The third was a double lung shot and he ran close to 200 yds finally expiring in 12" of black mucky water.   
 
I have never experienced a jaw shot deer or hog.   I have been lucky I guess.    I consider myself to be an average shot off hand but I have been able to be much more precise from an elevated solid stand with exact distances known.   And as I said in my previous post I do not take the shot unless it is just right .....I have passed on many opportunities over the years that were less than ideal.   I do believe in the quick and humane harvest of the game.   
 
Back to the OP - with heavier game,  I think more mass (bullet) at a slower speed will trump speed/lighter bullet. 

[demented]

  I've hunted deer with 12 ga slugs on several occassions, ranges well under 100 yards, have never had a deer drop like they do when hit by a spitzer of sufficient weight starting out at 2,600 fps or better.   Most I've hit in the boiler with slugs have ran 50-100 yards, in turn a hit in the same spot with a 150 gr. 308 Win started at 2,800 will usually cause them to fall in place. 

[Land_Owner]

I shoot a Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight in .270 caliber with 150 grain Nosler Partitions at 2,540 fps muzzle velocity from a steady rest at distances up to and including 222 yards.  I don't use Nosler Ballistic Tips, Speer Grand Slams, Speer, Hornady, Federal, Winchester, etc., bullets because they don't shoot well in my rifle or they perform POORLY on the game when shot in the same place as the Partitions. 

I am a meat hunter, a reloader and, by practice, an effective shot.  I aim small and therefore miss small.  I don't want to track.  Like gstewart44, the swamp surrounding my east-central Florida woods is deep, thick, and unforgiving - but a HUGH Wildlife Pump.  I shoot a LOT of FL hogs (500+ since 1989; 24/7/365) and few deer (except when I go to South Carolina and there shoot 4-7 deer annually - usually).  I am happier when the game participates but satisfied for trying when they don't.

As a meat hunter, it does the game no good for it to linger in life after a bullet has been placed through its vitals.  The "Primordial Soup" of chemistry that follows the shock of impact and Flight for Life taints the meat.  For this purpose, putting an animal down DRT is significantly better than tracking a blood trail.  I will head/neck shoot a hog every day and twice on Sunday.  I will double lung (a good buck) or neck shoot a doe.  Bang-Flop.

The 150 grain Nosler Partiton in .270 caliber delivers the knock out necessary to prevent tracking, provided I do my part behind the trigger.  Everything else, from my perspective and what works for me, is experimentation, and I don't want or need to do that any more.

I also shoot a lot of hogs, in the "X" between the ears and eyes, from a steady rest, over corn as bait, at a distance not over 25 yards, with a stainless steel Ruger K77/22RP (.22 long caliber) bolt action rifle that is more accurate with cheap Federal 36 grain lead hollow points than my .270 Winchester or my hunting partner's Anchutz in .22 cal.  Bang-Flop.  Wait for the sounder to quiet down and go back to eating the corn, and repeat.  Small caliber doesn't scare away the pigs and makes quick work for BBQ's.

[keith44]

I shoot a Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight in .270 caliber with 150 grain Nosler Partitions at 2,540 fps muzzle velocity from a steady rest at distances up to and including 222 yards.  I don't use Nosler Ballistic Tips, Speer Grand Slams, Speer, Hornady, Federal, Winchester, etc., bullets because they don't shoot well in my rifle or they perform POORLY on the game when shot in the same place as the Partitions. 

I am a meat hunter, a reloader and, by practice, an effective shot.  I aim small and therefore miss small.  I don't want to track.  Like gstewart44, the swamp surrounding my east-central Florida woods is deep, thick, and unforgiving - but a HUGH Wildlife Pump.  I shoot a LOT of FL hogs (500+ since 1989; 24/7/365) and few deer (except when I go to South Carolina and there shoot 4-7 deer annually - usually).  I am happier when the game participates but satisfied for trying when they don't.

As a meat hunter, it does the game no good for it to linger in life after a bullet has been placed through its vitals.  The "Primordial Soup" of chemistry that follows the shock of impact and Flight for Life taints the meat.  For this purpose, putting an animal down DRT is significantly better than tracking a blood trail.  I will head/neck shoot a hog every day and twice on Sunday.  I will double lung (a good buck) or neck shoot a doe.  Bang-Flop.

The 150 grain Nosler Partiton in .270 caliber delivers the knock out necessary to prevent tracking, provided I do my part behind the trigger.  Everything else, from my perspective and what works for me, is experimentation, and I don't want or need to do that any more.

I also shoot a lot of hogs, in the "X" between the ears and eyes, from a steady rest, over corn as bait, at a distance not over 25 yards, with a stainless steel Ruger K77/22RP (.22 long caliber) bolt action rifle that is more accurate with cheap Federal 36 grain lead hollow points than my .270 Winchester or my hunting partner's Anchutz in .22 cal.  Bang-Flop.  Wait for the sounder to quiet down and go back to eating the corn, and repeat.  Small caliber doesn't scare away the pigs and makes quick work for BBQ's.

I like the way you think.  I gotta remember that bit about the hogs if they ever come to my area.

[mechanic]

One thing I can attest to.  A shot in the neck near the spine is always immediately effective.  If I see any movement at all once the animal is down, I place another in the head. 
 
A 243 will scarcely expand in the neck, but the shock is quite effective.  A 45-70 makes a bigger hole, but the animal is still just dead.
 
Hit through the lungs with either the animal will die, but perhaps not right where it stands.  I've had the same shot with different results on different animals at different times.
 
If the animal is close enough to make me confident, and is quietly browsing, I will take a neck shot all day regardless of armament.
 
Ben

[surehuntsalot]

I'm kinda "old school"I believe in big bore bullets and big bore guns

[twoshooter]

Re: Land owner. We raised hogs most of my life, and most "hogs" people here refer to are just feral domestic stock, not true "wild boar", and over the years I saw my father ( who would have been 100 this year) cut their throats with a butcher knife, therefore the expression " squeal like a stuck pig". Most hogs however, were killed with a simple 22 magnum rifle and fmj ammo into the head.  Where you need big stuff is if you are wading around in muck and brush on their level, that can be a bit dicey.... I would take as much as I could get there.

[FPH]

Here in West TX and NM people tend to over estimate their capabilities and take long shots.  I've seen more animals wounded by .243's, .223's, .22-250's than by .270's on up.  I've taken smaller game such as the pronghorn at 400 meters with my 6mm rem., however, I was able to shoot from a good rest, and was not rushed.  Elk and Muley's are a different story.  They are tough beyond belief.  The larger calibers are more effective in my area.

[garyRI]

I now hunt with a 270 from time to time but my deer rifle of 40 years is a 308. I've shot a few dozen large animals including a couple caribou & a black bear. I would not think twice about using it on elk or moose.
I shot one deer at 160 yards with a borrowed 243 in TX. If I lived in Texas and wanted a deer/pig rifle it would be a 243. In my old age I prefer less kick & that deer I shot, in the chest, w/90 grain bullet, dropped like a rock.
Very few of the animals I have shot at were doing anything but standing or walking slowly.
A 45-70 round, more or less, has the same muzzle velocity as a saboted shotgun bullet or a muzzle loader. Hunting in RI & MA I am limited to shotgun and muzzle loaders. I can't imagine why anyone would limit themselves to lower muzzle velocities if they had a choice.

[jpshaw]

Shotguns rarely knocked a deer down for me.  Rifles do.  They may get up and run 60 yds.  I guess that's why the formula is vel squared x weight not squared (divided by 450,400).

[keith44]

I can't imagine why anyone would limit themselves to lower muzzle velocities if they had a choice.

To quote Elmer Keith..."if you ever have the opportunity, try the 45-70 and you will understand."

[Empty Quiver]

I can't imagine why anyone would limit themselves to lower muzzle velocities if they had a choice.

To quote Elmer Keith..."if you ever have the opportunity, try the 45-70 and you will understand."

Been there done that, ate the meat.
 
I don't have the vast experience with rifles that many here do. But it is like this. 300win mag in the shoulder and out the hip equals a dead black bear and a dead elk. I used a 180 NPT on both and the range was 60 yards for Mr. Black and 35 yards for the elk both put in about an identical 75 yard run. I'm happy right?
 
Next season I bring an 1895 Marlin 45-70. Mrs Black takes a LeverEvolution through the lungs, at 50 yards, it's lights out. A long month later a nice 5X elk has a very similar experience, at 85 yards, its lights out. Both these animals made a stunning death run of about 20 yards, hell the elk simply wandered for about 10 yards and stumbled the last 10. I'm happy again right?
 
Now I take both guns, and prefer it if the terrain dictates a levergun. Big and slow kills very well thank you. Small and fast provides more goo inside though.

[garyRI]

The original question was to compare a 243 & 45-70 for use in Texas. The 243 is easily good out to 200 yards. The 45-70 (and any other sub 2000 fps muzzle velocity rifle) is fine to perhaps 125 yards. After that the projectile is dropping like a rock. Hunting in Texas offers the possibility of long shots on a solid rest, because of mostly private land hunting where feeders are allowed.

[mechanic]

Terrain plays a big role, as well as the animal hunted.  If I were in Texas hunting deer, with the choices mentioned, I would probably go for the 243 to cover the wide open spaces often presented.  Here in my area of Ga. any shot over 100 yds is probably on a greenfield or power line easement, and most are not...so 45-70.
 
I like big old bullets, but once you get to the range where you have to calculate hold over...I'll go smaller and faster.
 
Ben