Author Topic: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.  (Read 1035 times)

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Offline powderman

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ACLU challenges California DNA collection practice that police use to solve cold cases  Published September 17, 2012
Associated Press    SAN FRANCISCO –  An Alabama man was charged this month with the 1980 murder of an Oxnard teen. A Placerville man was arrested last month for a 1986 rape and murder of a San Mateo teen. A San Francisco man is currently on trial for the murder and robbery of a tourist two decades ago.
 
Technological advances in genetic research and computers in recent years have turned solving "cold cases" into near-routine police work. The California Attorney General reports that the state's DNA database of close to 2 million samples spits outs more than 425 "hits" a month, more than double the average monthly rate of 183 in 2008. More than 10,000 suspects have been identified in the last five years.
 
But on Wednesday, the American Civil Liberties Union will argue before a federal appellate court in San Francisco that California's DNA collection efforts have become unconstitutionally aggressive and that the spike in hits comes at the expense of civil liberties.
 
The ACLU is asking the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to strike down California's Proposition 69, which authorized police to obtain a genetic sample from every person arrested on felony charges, not just those convicted. Some 25 other states have enacted similar laws since 62 percent of the California electorate passed the measure in 2004.
The issue of the warrantless swabbing of the cheek with a Q-tip of everyone arrested for a felony has sparked one of the hottest "search and seizure" debates in state and federal courts in decades.
 
The U.S. Supreme Court has already signaled its willingness to review Maryland's DNA collection law after a federal appeals court there ruled it unconstitutional in April. The California Supreme Court has agreed to review a lower court's overturning of the California law. Several other state and federal courts have already ruled or are weighing the issue throughout the country.
 
While the courts are sorting out the issue, California law enforcement officials are collecting more than 11,000 samples a month.
"Cold hit DNA is integral to bringing criminals to justice," said San Francisco District Attorney George Gascon, whose office is prosecuting William Payne for the 1983 strangulation murder of Nikolaus Crumbley. Crumbley's body was found in the city's McLaren Park along with DNA that was finally matched to Payne earlier this year. Payne denies killing Crumbley, saying his DNA was found at the scene because the two had had consensual sex. The match was made after Payne submitted a DNA sample after an unrelated assault conviction.
"Almost three decades later, we have charged the person responsible for this horrific murder," Gascon said.
 
The 9th Circuit itself has previously upheld the California law, which went into full effect in 2009. But underscoring the importance of the debate, a majority of the court's 24 judges voted to reconsider that divided ruling of three-judge panel. The matter now goes before a special "en banc" court of 11 judges.
Judge Milan Smith Jr., in writing the majority opinion of the three-judge panel, likened the expanded DNA collection efforts to nothing more than the 21st Century's answer to fingerprints.
Since 1998, California has collected DNA from convicted felons to help solve crimes. In addition to solving cold cases, the technology has also led to the exoneration of at least 200 wrongly convicted nationwide.
 
But California's proposition expanded DNA collection to those arrested for felonies — an important distinction to the ACLU and privacy advocates. They argue the cheek swab of the arrestee comes too early in the criminal justice process, because not every felony arrest leads to a felony conviction, and every American is innocent until proven guilty. The critics aren't challenging the state's right to collect samples from those convicted of felonies.
"Testing those who are actually convicted serves the state's legitimate interests in obtaining samples from proven criminals while avoiding the threats to privacy created by testing everyone arrested, including those who are innocent," the ACLU's Michael Risher argued to the court.
 
The ACLU is representing three Californians who say they are among the 50,000 people arrested for felonies every year in California but never convicted of a felony. They say their privacy was invaded by the cheek swabbing during their arrest and incarceration, usually during booking.
 
Lily Haskell, one of the plaintiffs, gave a cheek swab after she was arrested at an anti-war rally in San Francisco three years ago and charged with a felony. The felony charges related to the protest were quickly dropped.
"Now my genetic information is stored indefinitely in a government database, simply because I was exercising my right to speak out," Haskell said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/17/aclu-challenges-california-dna-collection-practice-that-helps-solve-crimes/?test=latestnews#ixzz26jdJBMrM
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Swift One

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 04:04:57 AM »
All of our inmates can be subjected to DNA swab tests.  Invasive, yes  but you loose certain liberties when you become a felon.  I for one advocate the swab tests.  We have closed some cold cases with them and brought justice to the families of the victims in these cold cases.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline dukkillr

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 05:13:46 AM »
I've got no problem with the DNA testing on INMATES or CONVICTED felons.  An entirely different proposition to do it on someone who has been ACCUSED of a crime.
 
Just this morning I read a piece from Ironglow encouraging us to withhold judgement when someone has simply been accused of a crime.
 
It never, and I mean never ceases to amaze me what percentage of people claim to be "Pro-Constitution" but in reality they are, at best, Pro-Second, the parts they like of the First, and maybe the Tenth.  It's as if they don't even know what they are claiming to be in support of.  Oh wait...

Offline powderman

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 05:47:23 AM »
DUK. I really do understand what you are saying, but those  arrested have usually done something to be there. I've done nothing wrong but if giving a dna swab would clear me, great, I'm all for it. OTOH, were I guilty then you bet I'd object. Not sure but seems I seem to remember a hi profile rape murder in Lou a few yrs ago that was solved by a random dna test of inmates. Afterward he confessed. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 06:00:20 AM »
DUK. I really do understand what you are saying, but those  arrested have usually done something to be there. I've done nothing wrong but if giving a dna swab would clear me, great, I'm all for it. OTOH, were I guilty then you bet I'd object. Not sure but seems I seem to remember a hi profile rape murder in Lou a few yrs ago that was solved by a random dna test of inmates. Afterward he confessed. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Again, testing INMATES is certainly not a problem for me.  It's done routinely here in Kansas.  If you would choose to simply give your DNA to the government, more power to you.  It's yours to give, and none of my business.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 06:43:36 AM »
Invasive, yes  but you loose certain liberties when you become a felon. 
It's waaaay too easy to be a 'felon' these days. Think on that next time you drop you kids off on school property with a weapon in the car.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Swift One

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 07:06:25 AM »
Well, be aware of what you have in your car in sensitive places. 
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline ironglow

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 07:10:02 AM »
  I would like to see conviction before collection.
  ..But I guess I may be willing to lower the threshold to misdemeanor..particularly if there is a history of lawbreaking by an individual, understanding that anyone who has a fairly complete law-breaking history has likely committed some serious crimes which have not yet been uncovered.
 
  Perhaps the biggest joke of the last 70 years, is that the ACLU is truly interested in "justice"..over all other considerations.
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Offline Old Fart

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 08:14:31 AM »
Invasive, yes  but you loose certain liberties when you become a felon. 
It's waaaay too easy to be a 'felon' these days. Think on that next time you drop you kids off on school property with a weapon in the car.

Perfectly legal in my state. But I agree YT it is getting easier to be charged these days.
 
Back on topic I don't have a problem with DNA testing on convicted felons. In our state we have what they call career centers. It's a off branch of our vo-tech system. Some of thier programs are self supporting, by that I mean they make poducts that are sold on the open market. Other programs contract work outside the prison walls and they go out and work. In all cases they make a small paycheck that is used in the prison commissary. Also in cases where a profit is made it goes back into the training program and a victims fund. For the most part, but obviously not all cases, it's been a fairly positive program. I've got several friends who are instructors in the program and they all say the prisoners want to be there, so they act better than most free folks do at work.
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Offline m-g Willy

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 08:31:11 AM »
. I really do understand what you are saying, but those  arrested have usually done something to be there. I've done nothing wrong but if giving a dna swab would clear me, great, I'm all for it.POWDERMAN.  :o :o

Got to disagree with ya on that.
I do not do drugs,never been busted for drugs , and not a felon ,,,,BUT I have to be tested and proven innocent before I can work.
No big deal to some people ,but I don't like having to prove that I am innocent at least once every year!
 
 

Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 09:27:09 AM »
Nobody needs to be in anyones mouth without a warrant. Dont throw the constitution away over spit. Its not that a guilty man is getting away its the idea an innocent man may go to jail.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 10:54:47 AM »
Nobody needs to be in anyones mouth without a warrant. Dont throw the constitution away over spit. Its not that a guilty man is getting away its the idea an innocent man may go to jail.

Question....how can a DNA match put an innocent man in jail?
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Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 11:03:51 AM »
Going down the road smoking a cig, toss butt out the window beside a pile of bones you cant see, mower man finds bones prosecutor nifong finds butt.
Next day wife finds note in wallet from miss new woman, calls law and says you hit her, cops run cotton ball down throat. You and bubba face off for the next 50 years.

Offline powderman

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 12:21:41 PM »
BRIARPATCH. Good points. I guess I'm a bit naieve on such matters. My point was that If there was probable cause to arrest somebody, seems there would be probable cause to test him too.  I just didn't see the harm in testing an innocent man. POWDERMAN.  ??? ???
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 05:41:59 PM »
Going down the road smoking a cig, toss butt out the window beside a pile of bones you cant see, mower man finds bones prosecutor nifong finds butt.
Next day wife finds note in wallet from miss new woman, calls law and says you hit her, cops run cotton ball down throat. You and bubba face off for the next 50 years.

Not a good example. Any forensic investigator, worth a pinch of s#1+, could tell that the butt had not been there as long as the bones. And if it had been there that long the DNA would not be viable as evidence due to degredation. (see....I know jist enuff to get in trouble  ;) )
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline williamlayton

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 01:30:44 AM »
What some of you folks are doing is expecting perfection.
None of us is perfect and there is no perfect system come up with by man in this world.
DNA is collected as a routine from newborns in hospitals to HELP protect baby swapping by accident. Can't happen? Guess again.
My mother claimed I was swapped---said she could not have possible brought such an ugly child into this world.
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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 01:55:49 AM »
Not a good example. Any forensic investigator, worth a pinch of s#1+, could tell that the butt had not been there as long as the bones. And if it had been there that long the DNA would not be viable as evidence due to degredation. (see....I know jist enuff to get in trouble  ;) )
Cuts you know good and well that a prosecutor on a mission won't be detered by that, nor will the cops... if they're feelin' confident that they can make it stick, AND THEY'VE STARTED GATHERING EVIDENCE as opposed to investigating.
 
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 02:17:58 AM »
Cuts you know good and well that a prosecutor on a mission won't be detered by that, nor will the cops... if they're feelin' confident that they can make it stick, AND THEY'VE STARTED GATHERING EVIDENCE as opposed to investigating.
 
knowwhatimean, vern?


Uh huh! I'm sure that little senario will happen with great regularity! ::)

You do have SOME understanding of just how intricate and detailed the collection of and processing of DNA evidence is......don't you?
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"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 02:57:56 AM »
Cuts, notice the name of the procecutor? DNA, how long or whom did not matter. If the Duke boys had not been from rich families they would all be in jail now. Thanks to cops, procecutors and investigators. If you doubt it go back and review the case. Money and influence saved the day. We dont all have such avenues and the prisons are full of those that did not.
Besides, lets say the butt was throwed out on a fresh body. 

Offline Swift One

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 06:18:41 AM »
Quote
  Going down the road smoking a cig, toss butt out the window beside a pile of bones you cant see, mower man finds bones prosecutor nifong finds butt.
Next day wife finds note in wallet from miss new woman, calls law and says you hit her, cops run cotton ball down throat. You and bubba face off for the next 50 years. 

Total and complete circumstantial evidence that can be totaly expalined away in a court of law.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2012, 07:07:18 AM »
Quote
  Going down the road smoking a cig, toss butt out the window beside a pile of bones you cant see, mower man finds bones prosecutor nifong finds butt.
Next day wife finds note in wallet from miss new woman, calls law and says you hit her, cops run cotton ball down throat. You and bubba face off for the next 50 years. 

Total and complete circumstantial evidence that can be totaly expalined away in a court of law.


Swift one, you have already lost. To be in court means you have been charged, now you are fighting for your life. Remember, you have to prove your innocents.


Circumstantial evidence, Drew Peterson, anyone?


Would you want to be the one in court hoping that is the case, with your tax payed lawyer that has nothing on his mind but his next date he is secretly texting from court?

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 07:31:27 AM »


Circumstantial evidence, Drew Peterson, anyone?


Would you want to be the one in court hoping that is the case, with your tax payed lawyer that has nothing on his mind but his next date he is secretly texting from court?

Uh.......Drew was convicted with HEARSAY evidence not circumstantial ::)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 07:39:46 AM »
Would you not say a lot of it was circumstantial, a combination of both? Would you not say hearsay should/would be weaker in court than circumstantial? Cuts, it happens every day in every court room in America. The weakest mouthpiece loses.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 10:38:13 AM »
You guys are missing the point.  If you would like to vountarily give the government your DNA, please feel free.  It's yours to give, and it's none of my business.  Those of us who would choose not to give the government unfettered access to something so powerful and personal, we have the fourth amendment.  Take a gander at it if needed.  Some trust the government, and some prefer a more self reliant approach to freedom.  To each their own.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 10:45:02 AM »
Would you not say a lot of it was circumstantial, a combination of both? Would you not say hearsay should/would be weaker in court than circumstantial? Cuts, it happens every day in every court room in America. The weakest mouthpiece loses.

No I would not. THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE EXCEPT THE HEARSAY in that case. ::)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline briarpatch

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2012, 02:00:32 PM »
You guys are missing the point.  If you would like to vountarily give the government your DNA, please feel free.  It's yours to give, and it's none of my business.  Those of us who would choose not to give the government unfettered access to something so powerful and personal, we have the fourth amendment.  Take a gander at it if needed.  Some trust the government, and some prefer a more self reliant approach to freedom.  To each their own.
+1 
Cuts I would feel they talked about missing women and blunt trama to a dead woman but I dont know for sure how it went or what the courts call it. I'll just take your word for it.
I think Dukkiler has set us straight.

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2012, 03:05:35 PM »
You guys are missing the point.  If you would like to vountarily give the government your DNA, please feel free.  It's yours to give, and it's none of my business.  Those of us who would choose not to give the government unfettered access to something so powerful and personal, we have the fourth amendment.  Take a gander at it if needed.  Some trust the government, and some prefer a more self reliant approach to freedom.  To each their own.

Cuts I would feel they talked about missing women and blunt trama to a dead woman but I dont know for sure how it went or what the courts call it. I'll just take your word for it.
I think Dukkiler has set us straight.


Testing a CONVICTED felon yes! Someone awaiting trial?Without a felony conviction on record? I cannot believe so many on this forum would agree to such a law against the Constitution. Especially the ones claiming to be Conservative.Just goes to show you how far into the brainwashing stage we have allowed ouirselves to be taken. And some even think Misdemeanors should be included ::)
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Offline powderman

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 03:13:27 PM »
DUK. There are a lot of things I'm not really up on, dna is one of them. Other than my dna being falsely used to convict me of a crime I didn't do what would somebody do with a dna swab?? I'm rather ignorant on the subject so why is it bad to give a sample, other than being used in a dishonest way?? POWDERMAN.  ??? ???
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2012, 03:30:48 PM »
Cuts I would feel they talked about missing women and blunt trama to a dead woman but I dont know for sure how it went or what the courts call it. I'll just take your word for it.
I think Dukkiler has set us straight.

None of which connected peterson to the crime. The only thing that hooked him to it was the hearsay evidence.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: DNA swab tests has solved old cases, aclu backs criminals of course.
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 12:10:33 AM »
This is interesting a nd I am trying to keep up---but have gotten lost on a couple of things.
Who is Drew Peterson?
Give me a hint as to how this guy is brought into the subject.
Yes, I have re-read the thread a couple of times but this name and situation are not explained.
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