Author Topic: Self defense video..may be controversial  (Read 1041 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Self defense video..may be controversial
« on: September 23, 2012, 01:49:50 AM »
  http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/for-self-defense-22-beats-45/
 
  Scroll down to video... Agree or disagree?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 02:33:07 AM »
More or less agree, with the caveat that there's no Absolute Truth here, just preferences & opinion.
If I'm going to be in an armed confrontation, my first choice of defense will be, to be somewhere else. 2nd will be, have a shotgun. 3rd would be, have a different shotgun or a rifle. If I'm reduced to a pistol I'd rather have Model 23 on hand, but a .22 in hand beats the Model 23 (or Hi-Power or CZ or 1911) left at home or in the car any day of the week. We all know this. So, it's more having the weapon handy, than measure of cartridge. I've an old jennings j22 which, before it became jam-prone, was a lot of fun to shoot, and it was easy to shoot very fast... and it was easy to have on hand.
I note in the video the guy touted suppressability (is that a word) as a .22 virtue.. not sure that's much virtue for us here, wihtout federal okay.
btw, I think a 380 is sufficient... pref in Bersa since it's fun to shoot, but LCP is more likely to be in hand at any given moment.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 02:42:56 AM »
I agree to a point.....shot placement always trumps caliber.
 
Ben
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline DDZ

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 05:22:02 AM »
The only part I believe to be true is, the shotgun being the best. Don't see LEO's or our military personal carrying 22's, nor do any of us agree that a .22 is a better cartridge for deer. A human male is generally much heavier than a normal sized deer, so why would we think that a .22 is not ample for deer, but one of the better calibers for stopping bad guys. Maybe if someone doesn't practice with a .357 or .45 than maybe the .22 is better for them. If on the other hand you can handle a .357 or .45, no way is the .22 a better choice.     
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 06:35:02 AM »
In any case a reliable carbine trumps everything.  Preferably an AR in 5.56.
I'm voting 3rd party in this election by writing in Jesus Christ for president.  Sadly even if this were an option most of you would still vote Republican because "It's a two party system."

Offline finisher

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 10:48:13 PM »
I've heard this stance before in the past. And there is some logic to it if you're up close and can guarantee multiple head shots.


When I was in high school debate club I did a thing on gun control and used my mothers experience from working as a phlebotomist in the Huntington Memorial trauma center as part of my research.

She said that the overwhelming majority of the bullet wounds that she saw were small caliber(.22LR, 32 and 380 ACP) and good amount of 38 Spl.

According to the stories, she found that there were more instances of fatality with the small caliber shootings that were up close and personal (10 feet or less) than the ones that were at a distance. Logical right ::) . She said that she'd seen a number of guys survive 38s, 9mms, and 45s, shot from a distance but they were never the same physically. But the 38s up close, she said were usually fatal.There were a couple of 357 cases and shotgun blast cases neither of which the victim survived.

There are always various factors. There are those that will say that the 9mm is a bad stopper, but at what ranges. How big was the guy?

My brother was shot in the shoulder area where deltoids and chest muscles come together with a .22LR at about 25 yards by his estimate, while he was chasing some goblin after he caught him crawling out of his apartment window. He said he stopped in initial shock and the goblin did as well and when my brother realized he was shot but still up he became enraged and charged at the guy (now keep in mind that at that time my brother was fresh out of the military, super healthy and strong and weighing about 260 pounds).

The goblin emptied his magazine in a panic scoring no further hits, and turned and started to run. But it was too late as my brother caught up to the guy and pummeled him until he(my brother) passed out (I guess from shock).

The guy was beaten so badly that the authorities were considering charging my brother, but the case was fortunately dropped.

On another occasion, at a party gone out of hand, he took a gut shot from a 32 ACP and he said that one dropped him but not before he was able to grab the guys gun at the moment it went off, thereby jamming the mechanism and preventing any further shots. People pounced on the shooter and got things under control before the police arrived. (yes my brothers lived an "interesting "life).

Back to my moms experience. She also said that she saw a higher percentage of fatalities from knife wounds, both stabs and slashes than from gun shots in general.

She saw another guy walk in, yes WALK in with a hatchet stuck in his head. And he lived.

Yet another guy walks in with a black eye and some minor facial bruising wearing a beenie cap and complaining of an excruciating head ache, but not knowing why. He said he had been involved in a gang fight but was only punched once and could not figure out why his head was on fire. Docs pulled off his beenie and found that it was soaked with blood towards the back of his skull. Upon further examination they discovered a bullet, later determined to be from a 25 caliber pistol, lodged between his scalp and his skull.

Apparently the bullet entered somewhere in the corner of the orbit of his eye and some how skinned its way across the inside of his scalp to the back of his head. He didn't recall hearing any gun shots in the fight so it was assumed that the shot was fired from a good distance.

My G-ma and G-pa used to run a neighborhood dance club in Boyle Heights. Guy comes in tries to rob the place holding my G-pa at point with a .22 with everyone there. G-pa grabs the guys gun hand and in the struggle the gun goes off and G-pa is hit in the foot. G-pa back hands the guy into the bar where he is promptly met with a barrage of wing tips to the head and ribs (just a friendly little East LA massage). Turns out that the bullet went through  G-pas foot, ricocheted off the floor, and traveled upward through his leg and stopping about midway in his thigh muscle severing the femoral artery on the way up.


Lot of military vets and a couple nurse wives in that old place including G-pa. Knew exactly what to do and saved his life with the help of the neighborhood doctor (good old Doc.Offenberg). Doc said that a lesser man might  have lost the leg but G-pa was very fortunate to have been treated quickly.

Like I said, lot of different factors. Against a withered tweeker, a.22 might do the job excluding head shots. But if you come up against a raging 300 pounder , you might be in trouble. If you know what your doing, a decent sized knife may even serve you better in that case, or a 28 ounce ball peen hammer.

What it boils down to is make the best of what you've got.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 12:52:23 AM »
   I appreciate the answers received..I especially liked Finisher's 1st & 2nd hand accounts, very informative.  Finisher, have you left that neighborhood by now?  I hope so, sounds like a place that can be 'hazardous to your health".
  Not ong ago on a family website, my grand-niece who lives in Fairbanks asked my opinion on a carry weapon for her.  She would be hard pressed to reach 5' and 97 lbs.  I reccomended a .22LR revolver with as many rounds cylinder as she could comfortably carry, smooth the action if necessary and practice, practice, practice. Aim to get where she can comfortably hit a 4" target @ 10'.
  My reasoning..dependability for one..a 97 pounder may just "limp wrist" or be moving the gun toward the rear while under severe pressure. Loads could be intermittent, HP, roundnose, hyper, velociter, or segmented..that way, if a HP for instance won't penetrate clothes..perhaps the solid or hyper will.  Some revolvers hold up to eight rounds and are still quite compact.
  I felt somewhat vindicated when her uncle (a camp Perry competitor & instructor of police in handguns..approved of my suggestions.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 06:38:03 AM »
  Not ong ago on a family website, my grand-niece who lives in Fairbanks asked my opinion on a carry weapon for her.  She would be hard pressed to reach 5' and 97 lbs.  I reccomended a .22LR revolver with as many rounds cylinder as she could comfortably carry, smooth the action if necessary and practice, practice, practice. Aim to get where she can comfortably hit a 4" target @ 10'.
H&R makes a sweet 9-shot, or used to...
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline finisher

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 09:25:34 AM »
IG, if the cost of ammo is not too much of an issue, I would recommend a .22WMR loaded with hyper vel hollow points for your niece and focus her training on head and heart shots.


I used to get old soft balls and practice at various ranges. A deck of playing cards also works quite well.


I believe that Ruger has been putting out limited numbers of their SP101 in a 32 H&R Mag. The 4" barrel may be a bit large for your petite niece to pack but the 2 1/4  could be just the ticket if she can get past the blast and slightly stiffer recoil.


For someone of her size, that set up might be comparable to an average size man handling a 2-1/2 S&W Mod.66 with mag loads. It's stiff, but manageable. And I think a 32 Mag. would ruin any ones day at close range.


Otherwise, the 22 WMR, I think would be the better choice. Small fast bullets do crazy things once they've made contact with something. They con simply lodge themselves somewhere or like in my G-pas case, end up in a completely unexpected part of the body. The impact itself did very little to him yet he almost died from blood loss caused by that tiny little bullet.


Yeah IG, believe or not, Boyle heights back then was a pretty nice place to live, but it had it's elements. My G-pa and G-mas place was considered a respectable place for couples; dinner, live music and dance; beer and wine only no hard liquor at all. It was an isolated incident. I was about 3 years old when that happened and my dad was conducting the band in those days. It just happened to be the night that my mom took me to go watch him. We've long since moved to better pastures.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 09:49:07 AM »
nothing beats cubic inches , carry as large as you can. Someone mentioned that more small cal. bullet wounds were seen in the hospital or such. DUH the large cal wounds were seen in the morgue  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »
YT;
  H&R used to make a nice 9 shot revolver..I almost bought a 999 years ago..now I wish I had.  I have a Taurus 941, .22 mag revolver (8 shot)  with a 4" bbl.. she could carry such a gun in her purse..but a 2" might work a bit better, size wise.
 
  Yes Finisher, I think the .22 mag is a self defense round which works way out of porportion to it's size...from what I understand those mag bullets really do strange things upon contact with the bad guy....all painful.. 
 
Shootall, knowing my grand-niece, I don't think she would be best off with a heavy caliber..with her, I just figure a couple .22 hits would be better than a couple .40 cal misses.. ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline finisher

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 08:39:18 PM »
I'm thinking back to Ronnie Reagan. He took two or three, I think, at relatively close range but not point blank. One of those slugs stopped very close to his heart if I remember the reports correctly. And that tough old bird WALKED into the emergency room according to the press. Wasn't Hinkley using a .22?


I guess what it comes down to is that a .22 is still very very lethal when wielded skillfully. I wouldn't be whinin' one bit if it was all I had.



Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 03:17:32 AM »
I only mention killing is not the same as stopping .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 05:17:51 AM »
I'm thinking back to Ronnie Reagan. He took two or three, I think, at relatively close range but not point blank. One of those slugs stopped very close to his heart if I remember the reports correctly. And that tough old bird WALKED into the emergency room according to the press. Wasn't Hinkley using a .22?
He was; he shot six rounds in about two seconds, missed with all but last which hit the limo, flattened  into a dime, ricocheted & hit Reagan under arm, slipped between ribs and landed in lung near heart.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline finisher

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 05:21:23 AM »
I only mention killing is not the same as stopping .
**********
No doubts there SHOOTALL.


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 01:52:02 AM »
I'm thinking back to Ronnie Reagan. He took two or three, I think, at relatively close range but not point blank. One of those slugs stopped very close to his heart if I remember the reports correctly. And that tough old bird WALKED into the emergency room according to the press. Wasn't Hinkley using a .22?
He was; he shot six rounds in about two seconds, missed with all but last which hit the limo, flattened  into a dime, ricocheted & hit Reagan under arm, slipped between ribs and landed in lung near heart.
Don't forget Brady got shot and his wife went on the war path aginst gun ownership.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironglow

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 03:24:31 AM »
I'm thinking back to Ronnie Reagan. He took two or three, I think, at relatively close range but not point blank. One of those slugs stopped very close to his heart if I remember the reports correctly. And that tough old bird WALKED into the emergency room according to the press. Wasn't Hinkley using a .22?
He was; he shot six rounds in about two seconds, missed with all but last which hit the limo, flattened  into a dime, ricocheted & hit Reagan under arm, slipped between ribs and landed in lung near heart.
Don't forget Brady got shot and his wife went on the war path aginst gun ownership.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
   ...And wouldn't you think she and the "Brady bunch" would be campaigning hard to keep that attempted murderer in lockup? 
  She may have, but if so, I haven't heard of it.   Money talks!!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 04:34:45 AM »
I can't give any thing other than a "crap" rating to such videos.  Perhaps the statement the speaker made about more people being stopped by a .22 vs. a .45 is true.  But that is a statistic.  The reason behind statistics are not often considered.  We dom't know from that particular statistic how many people injured with a .22 didn't go ahead and kill the defender.  It doesn't tell us whether the shooter with the .22 was the bad guy or not. 
We can surmise that most people can shoot a .22.  Whoopee.  I don't own one in any configuration  That's what I think of them.  Whatever it is a .22 can (beyond being cheap to use) is better done with something else. 
"A 9mm won't save you," is a money making operation that's been in business for a long time.  What we saw in that video was not a commercial for the .22, it was a commercial to watch more of such videos." 
No sane person on the plantet prefers a .22 in his hands when he needs a gun to defend himself.   

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Self defense video..may be controversial
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 06:53:31 AM »
I'm thinking back to Ronnie Reagan. He took two or three, I think, at relatively close range but not point blank. One of those slugs stopped very close to his heart if I remember the reports correctly. And that tough old bird WALKED into the emergency room according to the press. Wasn't Hinkley using a .22?
He was; he shot six rounds in about two seconds, missed with all but last which hit the limo, flattened  into a dime, ricocheted & hit Reagan under arm, slipped between ribs and landed in lung near heart.
Don't forget Brady got shot and his wife went on the war path aginst gun ownership.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
   ...And wouldn't you think she and the "Brady bunch" would be campaigning hard to keep that attempted murderer in lockup? 
  She may have, but if so, I haven't heard of it.   Money talks!!

It wasn't the poor boy who pulled the trigger it was that arwful gun that did it and forced that nice young man to help. It's not his fault !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !