Police Thuggery : is there a police brutality problem in Denver?

[yellowtail3]

Seems to be a lot of it going around these days. I'm not sure if anything has changed, other than... there's more cameras in more hands. Still, kops slide on things that would get any of us thrown into jail:
http://www.policemisconduct.net/is-there-a-police-brutality-problem-in-denver/
an instructive video: be very careful about offering to be a witness, if your testimony won't be pleasing to the Kops. Denver paid out $35K for this one, but the officers weren't charged. Can you opt to pass on the money, and instead administer appropriate beating to the Kop?

[streak]

Also shows you the type of people that are being hired for this position!

[Cuts Crooked]

Also shows you the type of people that are being hired for this position!

Yup! As I've pointed out multiple times, you get what you vote for.

[yellowtail3]

Also shows you the type of people that are being hired for this position!

Yup! As I've pointed out multiple times, you get what you vote for.

Sounds to me, Cuts, like what you're sayin' is something close to, "... and if you people paid us more, we wouldn't abuse you so much... it' your fault!"

[finisher]

I've pointed this out before, but here it is again:
Police agencies have a very limited pool from which to hire. I have a statistic from one of my old classes and I'll post up if I can find it that breaks this down, but until then I'll try to "guestimate"/ approximate  from memory.

This is according to statistics in Los Angeles County.

Of all the people (with enough issues to begin with for wanting such a job), something like 25% to 30% of them will be eliminated from the pool for obvious legal issues.

Another 25% will be eliminated for being caught in a lie (or not lying skillfully enough) during the interview process. This is usually with regard to drug use, or background in general. We are now down to HALF or more of the beginning pool. I really believe that the numbers were higher but I'm being conservative.

Another 10% will get DQ'd for medical reasons and yet another 20 to 25% will get DQ'd by the shrink for having either been deemed a potential "Hannibal Lector" or most likely being presumed unable to kill someone should it become necessary. In other words, not psychologically capable of handling the potentially dangerous  requirements of the job.

We've eliminated what, 80-85% now?

Now of that number remaining are a small amount of stand up guys that are very qualified and may never have any issues such as this in their entire career. But there is also a large number of goons that just never got caught for a lot of things and were either extremely good liars (just as many phsyco/sociopaths are) or for what ever reasons, they just slipped under the "goon" radar; perhaps because of hiring requirements that needed filling and they just had to take, as we've all coined it at one point or another, "the lesser of many different evils".


I'm not defending the actions of these particular goons in the video. I'm just trying imagine myself being in the position of having to do the hiring.

Anyone who's ever held a supervisory or management position knows that you have to work with what you've got. And once you've hired and spent the money to train one or several guys who turn out to be a goons, you can't just "shyte can" them all for a replacements because you've got budget issues to worry about.

This is the sad reality of it.

Cuts, wouldn't you agree or do you think I'm just talkin' a bunch of hooeee.

[Hairy Chest]

We need to see more facts.  What conversation took place?  What did the driver look like? 

[Cuts Crooked]

Also shows you the type of people that are being hired for this position!

Yup! As I've pointed out multiple times, you get what you vote for.

Sounds to me, Cuts, like what you're sayin' is something close to, "... and if you people paid us more, we wouldn't abuse you so much... it' your fault!"

Nope! Didn't say a danged thing about pay. Said you get what you vote for. The people you vote into office choose who gets hired and the criteria for hiring them....so "it's your fault".  Work on reading comprehension instead of trying to read things into posts that aren't there.
==========================================================

Finisher, add hiring quotas for minorities and veterans and you've pretty much covered it.

[yellowtail3]

I'll work on that reading comprehension, Cuts... but I don't recall ever voting for cop thuggery. I've never seen anyone run on a platform of, "we're gonna hire thugs & give 'em badges...." - so what is it that you have in mind, that we (citizenry) have voted upon, which brings up kop thuggery?

[nw_hunter]

Its not the cop's fault that there is thuggery in their ranks...The guys responsible for the thuggery, well its not their fault either. Its not the fault or responsibility of the LEO establishment to clean this crap up, either. The victims are responsible for this crap and their politicians.
.
 Its somebody else's fault_ _like the citizen victims voting for one of two party offerings and the politicians themselves. But it certainly is not the fault of guys doing the thuggery.. .
.
I need to get a job like this, when things go bad...its not my fault. Or maybe if I do some crime or break some regs...its not my fault.  Its the politician's fault.  Yeah, that must be it!
 
.
.
..TM7

I see this one getting out of hand quickly.SO! Any posts that are negatively personal in nature will be deleted ASAP.Follow the rules folks, and practice temper tantrums on you spouse or BOSS

[D Fischer]

Not surised one bit. When I lived near Greeley years ago, a special unit from Wyoming was brough down to catch a police officer rolling drunk's. One officer did the part of the drunk in the parking lot of the Expo Center. The cop they were looking for got caught, nothing happened to him.

In another incident, an off duty police officer walked into a bar, the officer was drunk. A guy walking out of the bar was putting his wallet back in his pocket. The officer pulled out his off duty weapon and shot him. The officer went to court over it and claimed he thought the guy was pulling out a pistol. the judge allowed that police work is high stress and there fore it was understandable what happen and let the officer go.

Welcome to Denver, Colo. The toilet bowl of Colorado.

BTW, both stories made the Denver Post!

[yellowtail3]

In another incident, an off duty police officer walked into a bar, the officer was drunk. A guy walking out of the bar was putting his wallet back in his pocket. The officer pulled out his off duty weapon and shot him. The officer went to court over it and claimed he thought the guy was pulling out a pistol. the judge allowed that police work is high stress and there fore it was understandable what happen and let the officer go.

apparently, the judge agreed with Cuts - we get what we deserve, or something like that. And apparently... we deserve gov't-backed thugs, that are essentially untouchable.

[45-70.gov]

there are  quite a few people that HATE  cops


people that  just see the uniform  not the man
people that  will even  kill a cop  if given  a chance  or if confronted by a cop


they  only see the uniform  and  judge the good cops 
buy the actions  of the few like the one in the video


the  good  cops are to stupid to realize  they may get shot one day
because they wear the same uniform as the men in this video


when  you post these videos  to inflame  people
you should  post the  names and address of the people doing the beating
if the police  won't  police them selves...
.then posting names and addresses  on the internet  might help


please  note  i am  not  anti LE
in  fact  i am  pro LE 
and  i saw a violent crime  commited  and went  unpunished

[Swift One]

I work in corrections.  We have been coined for decades (if not longer) as thugs, corrupt, and sadists.  This is a result from bad Correctional officers doing bad things.  I personally would like to welcome all the LEOs to our level.  The FEW good ones are being shunned at becuase of of the MANY bad ones you have in your ranks.  Now, pull up a chair, have a drink, and enjoy your new status as sadists, thugs, and corrupt (according to the public eye).  It is what it is and we have no one to blame but our own for putting us in this category.

[dukkillr]

I've posted this story here before, or you can do a search of it.  We had a Federal thug beat the crap out of some guy because he cut him off in traffic while undercover.  Unfortunately the local officer appointed to investigate the incident had the gall to tell the truth.  He was run out of the department and even denied the opportunity to work as a security guard.  It was not "a few bad apples" that got him.  It was not, "the 1%".  It was that the culture of LEOs, at least in our area, is one of protecting each other, regardless of right or wrong.  There wasn't one bad officer, it was an entire department's management, top down. 
 
The ONLY reason any of this came to light was because a Federal Judge learned of the story and was rightly disgusted.
 
As has been so often told to us, the job is hard.  It's stressful.  The pay isn't great.  So why would anyone do it?  The power.  My god they love that power.
 
I always look for the, "We won't be thugs" option at the ballot.  I haven't found it yet, and I always vote.

[Cuts Crooked]

In another incident, an off duty police officer walked into a bar, the officer was drunk. A guy walking out of the bar was putting his wallet back in his pocket. The officer pulled out his off duty weapon and shot him. The officer went to court over it and claimed he thought the guy was pulling out a pistol. the judge allowed that police work is high stress and there fore it was understandable what happen and let the officer go.

apparently, the judge agreed with Cuts - we get what we deserve, or something like that. And apparently... we deserve gov't-backed thugs, that are essentially untouchable.

Well at least your reading comprehension is getting better.

Look, you vote for the people who choose the standards for hiring, and in some cases, directly hire the people.......so you have to take responsibility for your own actions. If you put the guy in office, you are helping make the descision as to who gets the job too. You DID vote for "thuggery" if you supported the politicos who were at the top.........and if you didn't vote for them, you should have worked harder to get better ones in place. either way.........YOU, the voter, get what you vote for. It's part and parcel of living in a free and democratic republic!

How hard is that to understand?

Now, you have every right to gripe about "thuggery" but with that should come the responsibility to make sure it stops happening..........all the way from the top down! But not one of you has stated, "I'm gonna make sure that we vote the idiots out of office that made this possible. Could it be that the American voter doesn't want that responsibilty? That they'd rather just vote for their place at the trough and hope for the best for their personal encounters, thinking, "that will never happen to me!" ?

[Swift One]

In another incident, an off duty police officer walked into a bar, the officer was drunk. A guy walking out of the bar was putting his wallet back in his pocket. The officer pulled out his off duty weapon and shot him. The officer went to court over it and claimed he thought the guy was pulling out a pistol. the judge allowed that police work is high stress and there fore it was understandable what happen and let the officer go.

apparently, the judge agreed with Cuts - we get what we deserve, or something like that. And apparently... we deserve gov't-backed thugs, that are essentially untouchable.

Well at least your reading comprehension is getting better.

Look, you vote for the people who choose the standards for hiring, and in some cases, directly hire the people.......so you have to take responsibility for your own actions. If you put the guy in office, you are helping make the descision as to who gets the job too. You DID vote for "thuggery" if you supported the politicos who were at the top.........and if you didn't vote for them, you should have worked harder to get better ones in place. either way.........YOU, the voter, get what you vote for. It's part and parcel of living in a free and democratic republic!

How hard is that to understand?

Now, you have every right to gripe about "thuggery" but with that should come the responsibility to make sure it stops happening..........all the way from the top down! But not one of you has stated, "I'm gonna make sure that we vote the idiots out of office that made this possible. Could it be that the American voter doesn't want that responsibilty? That they'd rather just vote for their place at the trough and hope for the best for their personal encounters, thinking, "that will never happen to me!" ?

I think you are wrong my friend.  DkKiller has it right, most of your cops graduating academies today do it for one thing and one thing only- the power.  The absolute power that most of them fail to understand is a powerful tool that can work for them when the time and moral thought process behind it is right.  Or work completely against them when the time and moral thought process is completely wrong.
 
No doubt the old school Law Enforcement for the most part was something to look up to and respect as a citizen. Those days are done. I have seen very good, professional, straight laced correctional officers drink the whole gallon of Koolaid when they get hired as police.  Its not that the people in office allow for the thugs to get hired, its that the people in office allow for to much control and power to go to LE.  Plain and simple.  Oh ya, and our current society that allows for it to happen as they sit back and watch the traffic violator get felony stopped on COPS.
 
Last week, I was at an intersection in the small podunk town of Westville, Indiana.  Broad daylight, lots and lots of people and cars around.  Here is a podunk Westville police officer that has a little old lady pulled over- obviously for a traffic violation.  The cop is a young very in shape man- as he sits their glued to the side of the car, just behind the driver's window, only face exposed to the driver, and hand on his weapon with I am almost most sure that I saw his holster button unsnapped.   He should be ashamed of himself for being so scared to do his job. Yes, Cuts, the "us against them" cop mentality is alive and well here in NW Indiana and the people in office gave the cops the power to act like that.  It doesnt have s**t to do with standards of hiring for most of it when you look at the whole nasty ball of wax.
 
"He should be ashamed of himself for being so scared to do his job."
 
And that is pretty much what I yelled out my window to the officer as I drove past him.....

[D Fischer]

If you stop and think about all the interaction between police and the public every day, just how dangerous is the job? That at time's it can be very dangerous is a given but that excuse for BS has long out worn itself.

[Cuts Crooked]

Swift,

If I'm wrong, how do YOU propose to change this situation?

Again, this is one thing I haven't seen from any of the complainers.

[KIMBER45]

Another example of the Barney Fife Syndrome. Remember this one - There once was a deputy named Fife; who carried a gun and a knife...................... .

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Cuts:
"If I'm wrong, how do YOU propose to change this situation?
Again, this is one thing I haven't seen from any of the complainers."


There is no quick easy solution just as we didn't get here overnight. There is going to need to be a a whole shift of attitude from the top down. It seems to me that much of the LEO problems have come since law enforcement took on a much more military approach and line of thought.


Look at many LE agencies. Instead of the more traditional police uniforms many now dress in a much more military style which in turn encourages a more military mind set of us and them. Police should think of themselves no different than the average guy on the street. They should not refer to the public as civilians. 


There should be BIG incentives and PROTECTION for whistle blowing bad LEO behavior and cover ups. It needs to be drilled into their minds in a ongoing way that they are here to PROTECT AND SERVE, not harass, beat up, intimidate, threaten, rough up, over control,etc.


All urban LEOs should do much more foot, horse and bicycle patrolling so they have much more opportunities to get to know the people in their patrol areas and interact with them on a regular basis other than just when they are ticketing or arresting someone.


Young new LEOs need more break in time with older mellower LEOs and have much more training in de-esculating situations. It seems that female LEOs do a much better job of this. They also need much more training in dealing with people with mental illnesses, mental retardation and dealing with different cultures.


Have all LEOs wear video/audio gear at all times while on duty. If our local police can afford a (censored word) armored assault vehicle they can afford the video gear. Every police agency should have a local oversight board made up of citizens.


LEOs also need to be prime examples of modeling law abiding behaviors. Don't be breaking traffic laws. Don't be getting drunk at the local bar and then driving, Discourage LEO only bars. For example the Kansas law enforcement training center no longer allows participants to leave in the evenings due to past history of too much drinking, drunk driving and not making classes due to hangovers.


I am sure there is more but the above would be a good start IMHO. Well Cuts, I at least tried.
GuzziJohn

[Swift One]

To answer your question Cuts, read Guzzi's post.  Good ideas in there.  Law Enforcement didnt get all that power over night.  They slowly got on the high horse over time and easing there way into it.  I have no sympathy for the view the public gives cops these days.  They asked for it.  Like i said, I work in a job that has been ridiculed for decades.  we had it coming too.
 

[yellowtail3]

Last week, I was at an intersection in the small podunk town of Westville, Indiana.  Broad daylight, lots and lots of people and cars around.  Here is a podunk Westville police officer that has a little old lady pulled over- obviously for a traffic violation.  The cop is a young very in shape man- as he sits their glued to the side of the car, just behind the driver's window, only face exposed to the driver, and hand on his weapon with I am almost most sure that I saw his holster button unsnapped.   He should be ashamed of himself for being so scared to do his job. Yes, Cuts, the "us against them" cop mentality is alive and well here in NW Indiana and the people in office gave the cops the power to act like that.  It doesnt have s**t to do with standards of hiring for most of it when you look at the whole nasty ball of wax.
 
"He should be ashamed of himself for being so scared to do his job."
 
And that is pretty much what I yelled out my window to the officer as I drove past him.....

Be very careful yelling at them - that might be assault, CoC (Contempt of Cop) or something else that could get you into a nasty confrontation with an angry guy who can escalate force - startin with command voice through violence - with near-impunity, if there aren't enough good witnesses around.
IN OTHER MORE IMPORTANT news.... shot a spike buck this evening, on first day of muzzleloading. He discourteously rolled down the wrong side of a very steep hill. I'm wiped out from the drag...
 
 

[45-70.gov]

swift one.......i hope you hang in there trying to  do  good


but   from what i can tell  with my limited  knowledge
any   good cop  will have to   put his job  on the line  when  he sees   other cops breaking the law


a  good  internal affairs   could prevent some future vigilante act   against  an innocent  cop


watch  the second take down un nessecary  take down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHh2DMGWTRs


what would any of you do  if this was your wife/daughter/mother/or sister
i  sure  hope  her dad  is a very unstable man

[Swift One]

swift one.......i hope you hang in there trying to  do  good

45-70, my job comes in at the tail end of LE. And in all actuality, it really isnt even law enforcement in my opinion. And I am sure that most cops on this sight will 100% agree with that. Working in a prison is a completely different animal than being out in the street. 
 
However, even prisoners have rights and I do try and honor those rights.  There is a saying in prison. "Don't go looking for trouble because sooner or later trouble comes looking for you."  I think that if ALOT more LEOs looked at things that way, there would be alot less BS in copland.
 
On the flip side of the coin, there is also another saying in prison.  "The most corrupt place in the world is a prison....parking lot."  Any place that has alot of power over other humans will in fact breed some level of corruption, greed, and abuse.  it's up to the super powers to decide how much of that will be allowed to happen.
 
Security cameras (Freaking everywhere) have cleaned up alot of prison BS.  What baffles me is the fact that there are so many cameras out there in the streets catching this stuff with the cops- and they just keep doing it.  That by itself speaks volumes about how Police feel about citizens and shows their arrogance towards them.  There is technology out there now that can put a very small camera with audio right on a cop's shirt.  I believe it's only a matter of time before they are mandatory.

[Cuts Crooked]

Some good thoughts there but.....more later.
 
Meanwhile, the comments about paramilitary thinking......where do you suppose that comes from? Guess what boyz 'n girls....a high percentage of LEOs are former military! And they usually get significant "bonus points" on their application for that very thing. And they move up in the ranks to command positions, with some input into hiring, based on that experiance too. This isn't something new either, I've been a LEO since 1982 and it was that way long before I ever got into this. Just something to think about.
 
Back to the good thoughts: Ok, now how do you impliment these ideas, who's going to make those changes, who's going to rewrite hiring practices and testing practices to weed out the head cases?
 
Who?
 
Uh...maybe the people YOU VOTE INTO OFFICE? Y'all can wiggle and squirm, duck and dodge, deny, deny, deny but it always comes back to being your responsibility.
 
Full circle.....you get what you vote for.

[45-70.gov]

thanks Mr Crooked.......i   did speak  with one of the sheriff candidates prior to the primaries


i discussed with him the problems  with  ATF  forms 1 and 4 in the past sheriff


thanks to you  i think i will have another meet....thanks to you comments..
.job well done.....as you probly  noticed  i am very hard headed...lol

[Swift One]

I've been a LEO since 1982 and it was that way long before I ever got into this. Just something to think about

If you have been in it for that long, certainly you are some sort of a supervisor.  Dont put off on the people that get voted in. The old school should be policing their young.

[nw_hunter]

Some good thoughts there but.....more later.
 
Meanwhile, the comments about paramilitary thinking......where do you suppose that comes from? Guess what boyz 'n girls....a high percentage of LEOs are former military! And they usually get significant "bonus points" on their application for that very thing. And they move up in the ranks to command positions, with some input into hiring, based on that experiance too. This isn't something new either, I've been a LEO since 1982 and it was that way long before I ever got into this. Just something to think about.
 
Back to the good thoughts: Ok, now how do you impliment these ideas, who's going to make those changes, who's going to rewrite hiring practices and testing practices to weed out the head cases?
 
Who?
 
Uh...maybe the people YOU VOTE INTO OFFICE? Y'all can wiggle and squirm, duck and dodge, deny, deny, deny but it always comes back to being your responsibility.
 
Full circle.....you get what you vote for.

It's everybody's responsibly!I think a big part of the problem comes from complacency, and even fear of saying or doing anything about it.I personally know a woman that told me and others that she witnessed a brutal act by our small town police dept, and later when we talked to her about it, she looked like she wanted a place to hide, and didn't want to talk about it.Later she admitted to one of my friends she had been paid a visit by one of the local boy's in blue, and that was all she was going to say about it.


These random acts of violence by those who take the oath to protect and serve, should be dealt with harshly.This is very seldom done, if ever.Make it public and show the outcome on the six o. news.I agree with Cut's..........Most of the problems with our police departments are at top.Political! Sill! The individual LEO is responsible (Or should be) for his own actions.And when they step out off line should be dealt with accordingly.Thank goodness, there are more LEO'S doing a great job of policing than these Bullies with badges!

[Cuts Crooked]

I've been a LEO since 1982 and it was that way long before I ever got into this. Just something to think about

If you have been in it for that long, certainly you are some sort of a supervisor.  Dont put off on the people that get voted in. The old school should be policing their young.

Actually you would be wrong. I have been an "acting chief" and found that I did not have an "aptitude for command" (I cannot lie to the troops with a straight face, and civil administrators often have a hard time accepting the bald truth ) I have worked as an IA officer for a while and have participated in IA investigations since then, but I learned this about myself, I'm happiest as a patrol/beat officer and if I told you what I like best about it, you would probably call me a liar.

[45-70.gov]

you have  no motive to lie