Author Topic: .444 for this season. (Read 2394 times)

jpshaw · « **on:** September 30, 2012, 03:46:44 AM »

Gave up on getting my older .44 overbore to group. Had a friend who wanted a large bore Handi for our primitive season and I recommended a .45-70. He came back with a .444 and asked me to help sight it in. I had misgivings about any .44 caliber at this point but to the range we went. This thing was cloverleafing at 25 and almost at 50. Grouping at 1 1/2 average at 100. I was floored. Found the twist was 1/20 not 1/38 and we were shooting Hornady 265 Leverlution ammo. My friend kept using this Handi even after "Primitive" season closed and killed six deer with the thing.

Early this Spring I found a .444 at the local Pawn with 3-9x40 Swift scope and sling for $225. Took my .44 barrel in to make sure the twist on the .444 didn't match the .44 and it was 1/20 like my friends. Have it dead on at 100 now. Went back 10 pages and saw nothing on the .444 on this forum so not too many using this caliber it seems. Any have any suggestions or opinions?

BBF · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2012, 04:29:24 AM »

Had one in a Marlin. Great cartridge and wish I hadn't sold it to a hunting partner. I used Hdy 265 gr. FN with IMR 4198 exclusively.

twoshooter · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2012, 04:51:09 AM »

I love my 444 and am very pleased with it. I have a post here "an extra 4" which you can look at for my cast info. I use a 240 gr SP or 240 HP for jacketed loads and 46 gr of IMR 4198. I use that in my Marlin, it is the 1/38 twist but that load gives me about 1 1/4 groups @ 100 yards and over 2300 fps. I have to say that that old Marlin is the most reliable killer of game I have ever used. My longest shot on a whitetail ever was with that gun/ load- 265 yards, and although I don't recommend it as a long range gun, within 200 yards they don't make a better deer gun. Chop 50 yards off that and use the 265 gr load and I would say it is a great Elk gun also.
I have dedicated my big Handi Rifles to cast shooting as I hunt mostly woods and dont have many shots over 100 yards.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2012, 05:04:21 AM »

H&R first made the 444M back about a dozen years or so ago in the Ultra version with a 1:38", then in 2007 they offered it again in a Handi with a 1:20" twist after we convinced them the faster twist was the way to go, same as Marlin. I was one if not the first to get one, it was factory tested with Rem and both Hornady factory rounds at under an 1½" at 100yds. I've shot 240gr XTP, 265gr FP and 355gr BTB cast in it, it's a shooter.

Tim

Txdrmy Man · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2012, 06:32:39 AM »

I too have one and it is a shooter. We have alot of pw season here in Ms. Mine didn't like the 265 gr Hornady but loves a 240 xtp or 240 speer sp over 46 grs of 4198. I think you will be pleased with yours.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM »

The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

twoshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2012, 07:05:49 AM »

Have that covered too

None the less, the 444 will do anything you need done.

PS: Better watch the Native American contingent or you may get a response from the archery forum that you won't like.......

jpshaw · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2012, 07:54:33 AM »

I will be hunting neither Native Americans nor nostalgia. My longest shot from my stand is 165 yards from a rangefinder. The .444 is legal in Louisiana's Primitive season being over .35 (was .38 lqst year). Why a .444 over .45-70? Simple, the .444 showed up used at a price I could afford and it already had a scope on it. I hate a red truck but I drive one since it showed up for hundreds less. We don't always get to pick unless you buy new. I believe I will be very happy with the .444 as long as it can hit and kill a whitetail at 175 yards.

Hunter6657 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2012, 07:58:24 AM »

Unless the native americans are shooting at each other with 444's, it wasn't around back then.

Larry L · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2012, 08:33:23 AM »

I've got a few 444's and like most folks, a handful of 45-70s. There's no difference any animal is going to tell about which one is better. I dropped a 500lb hog last year with the 444 at 400 yds and he didn't know if he got hit with a 44 caliber 265 gr bullet or a 10,000lb Peterbilt- he was DOA. I used a Marlin 444s that is scoped and shoots like the above pics-all holes touching at 100 yds and you can cover the group with a quarter. I'm using a max load of IMR4198 under the 265s for hunting loads as the lighter pistol bullets have a tendency to blow up on meat at 444 velocities. At long range, it probably doesn't matter but I would assume the lighter bullet would have more arch in the trajectory. From someone that shoots a lot of both cartridges, I don't see much benefit of one over the other. If you hit where yer aiming, the animal is dead meat. If you don't hit where yer aiming, you need to go back to the range.

jpshaw · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2012, 09:47:20 AM »

Actually wanted to use my .357 Mag (360 DW) for deer during the primitive but the Louisiana discription of "primitive said over .38 cal. One Gamewarden said; It was fine, a .357 is just a supped up .38 so I bought the barrel and found it to be OK with .360 DW. Worked up some loads of 180 Hornadys to about 2000 fps and was happy. Got worried about that .38 limit and phoned the state office and the guy there said; No way, your rifle is .357 any the limit is .38 or above. Bummer!

Bought the .444 early spring and just bought my license and wouldn't you know it, Louisiana changed that .38 to .35 and above for this year. Either way, unless they outlaw .429 and above I have something to hunt with during our primitive season.

gomerdog · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2012, 03:56:28 PM »

I have two 444's. One is a Marlin 444P, with which I have killed two elk, one cow and one calf. I have a Handi also. Killed an antelope with it in 2011. All one shot kills with hard cast bullets from either Cast Performance or Beartooth Bullets. Can't go wrong if your shots are 150 yards or closer. At least that's my range limit. Many here are more proficient than me.

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2012, 07:22:48 PM »

My first Handi (a .22 K-Hornet) was purchased used, I had a .44 Mag barrel fitted. Two years later I decided I wanted either a .444 or a .45-70. When I went looking the 444 was not available, at least not where I was shopping, but they did have a .45-70 in stock and priced right ($189.00 new in box) So I became a 45-70 fan. I readily admit (based on both the .44 Mag and the .45-70) that the .444 is PLENTY of gun for anything on this continent, and likely most things around the world, given proper bullets, and held to reasonable ranges, that is. Personally I doubt there is much difference in the ability of each to take game. (Remember though the 45-70 has been tested by the US military to a range of 1 mile, so far the longest shot I've heard of for the .444 has been under 300 yards

)

petemi · « **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:00:04 AM »

Yeah Keith, TWO MILES, Sandy Hook, NJ 1879. And that was with trap door loads

500 gr bullet, 80 gr. black powder, 1375 fps. Here's the read:

http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf

My '70s an easy 300 yard rifle. If I did the work, it could be a 500 yard rifle.

Pete

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2012, 05:46:18 AM »

I remembered Sandy Hook, and extreme distance, and penetrating 7 pine boards...

besides they were just feelin' good about their .444 being able to shoot long range, now they feel their .444 is inferior again

hoytcanon · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2012, 02:32:17 PM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM

The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

I'm not looking to start a war over this (especially with a .45/70

)... BUT, I couldn't just let it slide... The above is the most DUMB-AZZED post I have ever read... PERIOD!

petemi · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2012, 02:53:31 PM »

Hoyt, We coulda just asked Custer how many cavalrymen went down to repeating leverguns

Those were sort of a .444.....perhaps more like a .44-40. Anyhow, all the numbers are in there.

Every once in a while someone will post something here someone else thinks is dumb. I love it. It keeps this place lively. If you don't believe me, ask jeepmann1948.....huh George

I can't let Patty read LaOtto222's post. Being a Ponca, she'd probably take my .45-70 away from me.

Pete

Littlepage · « **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2012, 03:55:19 PM »

Quote from: hoytcanon on October 01, 2012, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: LaOtto222 on September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

I'm not looking to start a war over this (especially with a .45/70 )... BUT, I couldn't just let it slide... The above is the most DUMB-AZZED post I have ever read... PERIOD!

I feel the same. That's like saying the 7.62x39 is the best 7.62 round because it has killed so many Americans. By the way anybody know what killed the most Germans, the 30-06, 303, or 7.62x54r?

rugerfan.64 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2012, 04:25:52 PM »

You'll like the 444 just fine. I use 265 Hndy flex tips in mine. Big dose of powder in R-P brass. Shot one with a 240 gr bullet once and it didnt go all the way through. Switched to 265's and the deer around here wont hold them inside. Complete pass throughs. Who cares how many people have been killed by what round? Damn shame no matter what round.

keith44 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 01, 2012, 07:19:36 PM »

Quote from: hoytcanon on October 01, 2012, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: LaOtto222 on September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

I'm not looking to start a war over this (especially with a .45/70 )... BUT, I couldn't just let it slide... The above is the most DUMB-AZZED post I have ever read... PERIOD!

There is some truth here. The most powerful load I can find for the .444 Launches a 300 grain bullet at 2211 fps for 3,225 ft lbs, while the most powerful load I have found for the 45-70 launches a 500 grain bullet at 1860 fps for 4,000 fpe. As stated above the 45-70 is documented to be accurate enough and powerful enough for 1 mile plus shooting. The weaker

.444 is not

twoshooter · « **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2012, 02:02:15 AM »

Quick poll: who has a rangefinder that goes to a mile? How about a set of ballistic tables for a mile?

Other than in a cut wheat field in Kansas WITH binoculars, who can see a deer at a mile? Know what I can see at a mile? A bright yellow semi with orange markings! This has devolved into a test of bladder strength.

Both work quite well within all normal ranges. Keep it up and the 50 BMG boys will be over to shut us all down. Did you know that one ICBM with MIRV capability could kill all the deer in Vermont at the same time, all the way from Nebraska?

BBF · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2012, 03:23:31 AM »

Passing over the asinine comments how many people got killed etc.

One thing is for sure. I have shot the 444 with max loads with 265 gr bullets which is the heaviest projectile the slower twist 444 will stabilize. You get a very good push from the recoil but it isn't anywhere near as brutal as a full power 45-70 Govt load. Not even close !!

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2012, 04:01:35 AM »

Quote from: Littlepage on October 01, 2012, 03:55:19 PM

Quote from: hoytcanon on October 01, 2012, 02:32:17 PM
Quote from: LaOtto222 on September 30, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
The problem is; The 444 Marlin is the 45-70's weak sister. The 45-70 will kill game much deader and will do it from 1/2 a mile away. With a 444 Marlin you would be lucky to kill anything on the far side of 200 yards. How much nostalgia does a 444 Marlin have - not much. How many American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin? I bet it is just a small fraction as many as the 45-70 has killed. The 45-70 has killed hundreds, if not thousands. It is highly unlikely that more than a dozen American Indians have been killed with a 444 Marlin. That alone is worth having a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

I'm not looking to start a war over this (especially with a .45/70 )... BUT, I couldn't just let it slide... The above is the most DUMB-AZZED post I have ever read... PERIOD!
I feel the same. That's like saying the 7.62x39 is the best 7.62 round because it has killed so many Americans. By the way anybody know what killed the most Germans, the 30-06, 303, or 7.62x54r?

How much nostalgia do you get thinking about the 7.62X39? Is that the reason people have them?

I guess some people do not know when they are being spoofed. Pete gets it. So I will spell it out for them. I own a 444 Marlin Handi rifle, I do not own a 45-70 of anything. Nostalgia means very little to me, what does, is how they shoot and how they meet my needs. I really do not see the all the hoopla over the 45-70, it is just another good cartridge, as is the 30-06 as is the 223 as is the 7mm Mauser as is the 35 Remington as is the 444 Marlin a good cartridge. I choose the 444 over the 45-70 because I had 44 Mags and the bullets are the same size, so I did have to stock another size on the shelf. The 444 is as accurate as any other big bore and will kill any thing walking, crawling or flying on this Continent. Once something is killed (the 444 will kill), it is killed no matter if it with a 22 rimfire or a 45-70, it is dead. So you can not kill something deader with a 45-70. So if you really need a 45-70 loaded to very high levels to kill something, why not get a 458 Win Mag and do it right.

Really?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2012, 04:36:33 AM »

Quote from: BBF on October 02, 2012, 03:23:31 AM

One thing is for sure. I have shot the 444 with max loads with 265 gr bullets which is the heaviest projectile the slower twist 444 will stabilize.

1:38" twist 444 Marlin barrels will stabilize cast bullets up to and including 355gr as long as they're sized right, the 444S used in Marshall's testing is a micro-grooved 1:38".

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2012, 06:41:45 AM »

I think the 45-70 would shoot about as far as a 50, with less recoil.

Gus McCrae · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2012, 07:14:10 AM »

Deer aren't that hard to kill. .444 will do the job fine. I picked .45-70 because of nostalgia.

Shooting .45-70 at a mile? Some of y'all are a hoot. Anyone here done such a feat?

keith44 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 02, 2012, 10:48:14 AM »

not me, but if you search the internet for military tests, 45-70 you'll find what we're talking about

Gus McCrae · « **Reply #27 on:** October 02, 2012, 10:58:38 AM »

Quote from: keith44 on October 02, 2012, 10:48:14 AM

not me, but if you search the internet for military tests, 45-70 you'll find what we're talking about

I don't doubt it can be done, but it's not a practical application for 99.9999999999999999% of us.

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:01:37 PM »

As Pete said,I certainly enjoy a lively discussion.
Any of the regular readers know LaOtto is a real fan of the 45-70 and the 444.Some here might take offense of the merest slander of the Holy 45-70 much less to actually say there are cartridges much better suited for every use in the shooting world.The 30-06 comes to mind very quickly and I am sure with some minor ciphering more will come to mind.With that being said. Both the 444 and 45-70 are fine cartridges and have many applications,especially in the Primitave weapon hunting arenas.
As far as shooting a mile away with a 45-70 a feller better take his tooth brush and razor because before the bullet gets to the target he will have time brush his teeth and shave. (and will probably need to!)
Happy Trails
George

keith44 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 02, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »

Quote from: Gus McCrae on October 02, 2012, 10:58:38 AM

Quote from: keith44 on October 02, 2012, 10:48:14 AM
not me, but if you search the internet for military tests, 45-70 you'll find what we're talking about

I don't doubt it can be done, but it's not a practical application for 99.9999999999999999% of us.

no sir, not practicle, not recommended for hunting either, but it can reach further than most realize and have enough energy to be interesting when it gets there