BUG- Back Up Gun

[keith44]

So now we have "civilians" who need back up guns? ?? How bout' a BUG for yer BUG, or maybe a Josey Wales setup. Two shoulder holsters two on the hip, you could still do a couple ankle jobs, maybe a mini on the belt buckle, knife or two in the boot, (most probably wear low quarters though, maybe "tennis shoes" for quicker response time) one between the shoulder blades, hey, wear a trench coat then you could hang a shotgun from the shoulder, that'd be cool, (think I saw that in a movie) sometimes I just sit in awe....

every time I go to a big city this is how I dress 

[Mike in Virginia]

I know a crazy fellow who lives in the mountains locally.  He is the most prepared individual you'll ever meet. 
You know those little reflective stickers folks use to mark trees so they can get to their deer stand in the dark.  Well, he put one on his flashlight so he could find it if he drops it in the dark.  Of course he carries the necessary extra flashlight. 
I don't suppose it hurts a thing to be ready for anything as much as possible. 

[SHOOTALL]

I always have a J frame in my pocket where legal to do so. When needed or when a jacket/coat is worn I have another gun in a shoulder rig. Seldom but sometimes I have a gun on a belt . But always the Jframe in my pocket. So it goes from primary gun to back up .
 So far this discusion has been about shooting you #1 gun dry and needing a BUG. Or shooting both guns western gun fighter style or such.
 I offer that a small J-frame type revolver can do things a larger auto or for that matter a larget revolver CAN'T DO. I have more times than I would have liked to pulled my J-frame out of my front pocket and had it in hand ready to fire in a coat or jacket pocket while in a bad place.

[painted horse]

I always have a J frame in my pocket where legal to do so. When needed or when a jacket/coat is worn I have another gun in a shoulder rig. Seldom but sometimes I have a gun on a belt . But always the Jframe in my pocket. So it goes from primary gun to back up .
 So far this discusion has been about shooting you #1 gun dry and needing a BUG. Or shooting both guns western gun fighter style or such.
 I offer that a small J-frame type revolver can do things a larger auto or for that matter a larget revolver CAN'T DO. I have more times than I would have liked to pulled my J-frame out of my front pocket and had it in hand ready to fire in a coat or jacket pocket while in a bad place.

You know, that just makes good sense to me. Never really thought to much about having something small enough to carry in a pocket. Always used some kind of holster.  But you're right, it's right there where you can have your hand on it, ready to go if needed...smart.

[mcwoodduck]

I always have a J frame in my pocket where legal to do so. When needed or when a jacket/coat is worn I have another gun in a shoulder rig. Seldom but sometimes I have a gun on a belt . But always the Jframe in my pocket. So it goes from primary gun to back up .
 So far this discusion has been about shooting you #1 gun dry and needing a BUG. Or shooting both guns western gun fighter style or such.
 I offer that a small J-frame type revolver can do things a larger auto or for that matter a larget revolver CAN'T DO. I have more times than I would have liked to pulled my J-frame out of my front pocket and had it in hand ready to fire in a coat or jacket pocket while in a bad place.

You know, that just makes good sense to me. Never really thought to much about having something small enough to carry in a pocket. Always used some kind of holster.  But you're right, it's right there where you can have your hand on it, ready to go if needed...smart.

A couple of police officers have told me that they do the same thing and when they walk up to a car and have their jacket on and hands inside their pockets on a chilly night they are pointing a J frame at you asking for a license and insurance.

[Spirithawk]

I always have a J frame in my pocket where legal to do so. When needed or when a jacket/coat is worn I have another gun in a shoulder rig. Seldom but sometimes I have a gun on a belt . But always the Jframe in my pocket. So it goes from primary gun to back up .
 So far this discusion has been about shooting you #1 gun dry and needing a BUG. Or shooting both guns western gun fighter style or such.
 I offer that a small J-frame type revolver can do things a larger auto or for that matter a larget revolver CAN'T DO. I have more times than I would have liked to pulled my J-frame out of my front pocket and had it in hand ready to fire in a coat or jacket pocket while in a bad place.

You know, that just makes good sense to me. Never really thought to much about having something small enough to carry in a pocket. Always used some kind of holster.  But you're right, it's right there where you can have your hand on it, ready to go if needed...smart.

A couple of police officers have told me that they do the same thing and when they walk up to a car and have their jacket on and hands inside their pockets on a chilly night they are pointing a J frame at you asking for a license and insurance.

If your handgun is burried underneath clothing, or carried in any mannor you can't reach it when imediately needed, it is next to useless. Pocket carry is smart. I carry my backup there. Primary I carry in a crossdraw belt holster. Though under an untucked shirt  I can have my hand on it very quickly and easily, and like with pocket carry, unoticible too.

[SHOOTALL]

That's most likely why S&W sells more J frames than anythig else and why Ruger has the LCR . There are many more also. I have read that in VN SOG members and other speical forces carried SS j frames on them often in a leg pocket or other out of the way place hoping it would get over looked during a serch if captured . An interesting note was no extra ammo was carried a true last ditch effort.
Like honest men and women who carry for protection that small revolver in hiding but at hand may be the surprise that helps turn the tables in your favor.
There is/was State police force that has all uniform pants with leather holsters sewn in the front pocket for a J frame. It might be IN or OH .
BTW I learned from others .............

[Spirithawk]

One thing that gets me is ladies that carry in their purses. Now what is the one thing often snatched or first thing taken when robbed? Their purse!!!! Not to mention good luck getting to a weapon if needed. Ever see inside a woman's purse? lol I've had instances where a person I wasn't sure about came up to me. People asking directions mainly, the drawback of living in a tourist town. With the crossdaw I can cross my arms and slide my right hand easily under my shirt tail and hold onto my PF-9 without the person realising I have a hand on a gun. My move hidden by my other arm. Works great while sitting and driving too. If I even remotely suspect trouble headed my way my hand goes to it. Most never think about a person carrying a crossdraw and reaching to your off side gives you an edge before they can think what you might be doing. Even better when your move is hidden. A hamerless revolver in a pocket, with your hand on it, sure gives one an edge too.

[SHOOTALL]

Can you imagine what would go thru. a crooks mind ( other than maybe a bullet) when he pulls a gun or knife on you and threatens your life , something makes a noise and as he glances away the person being robbed opens up with a 38 or 357 mag from his coat pocket. SUPRISE SUPRISE 

[mcwoodduck]

One thing that gets me is ladies that carry in their purses. Now what is the one thing often snatched or first thing taken when robbed? Their purse!!!! Not to mention good luck getting to a weapon if needed. Ever see inside a woman's purse? lol I've had instances where a person I wasn't sure about came up to me. People asking directions mainly, the drawback of living in a tourist town. With the crossdaw I can cross my arms and slide my right hand easily under my shirt tail and hold onto my PF-9 without the person realising I have a hand on a gun. My move hidden by my other arm. Works great while sitting and driving too. If I even remotely suspect trouble headed my way my hand goes to it. Most never think about a person carrying a crossdraw and reaching to your off side gives you an edge before they can think what you might be doing. Even better when your move is hidden. A hamerless revolver in a pocket, with your hand on it, sure gives one an edge too.

Have you seen some of the purses designed for CCW?
Most have short strong straps. and a special pocket to act as a holster that is accesses from the out side.  So if a guy comes buy to snathc the purse and she is able to hang onto the purse the pocket is now facing her and she cna shoot through the purse right into him.
I can only imagine what would come up as a gun out of one of my mom purses when I was growing up.
Revolvber with a tissue covered in lipstick and a couple butter scotch hard candies stuck to it.

[Spirithawk]

One thing that gets me is ladies that carry in their purses. Now what is the one thing often snatched or first thing taken when robbed? Their purse!!!! Not to mention good luck getting to a weapon if needed. Ever see inside a woman's purse? lol I've had instances where a person I wasn't sure about came up to me. People asking directions mainly, the drawback of living in a tourist town. With the crossdaw I can cross my arms and slide my right hand easily under my shirt tail and hold onto my PF-9 without the person realising I have a hand on a gun. My move hidden by my other arm. Works great while sitting and driving too. If I even remotely suspect trouble headed my way my hand goes to it. Most never think about a person carrying a crossdraw and reaching to your off side gives you an edge before they can think what you might be doing. Even better when your move is hidden. A hamerless revolver in a pocket, with your hand on it, sure gives one an edge too.

Have you seen some of the purses designed for CCW?
Most have short strong straps. and a special pocket to act as a holster that is accesses from the out side.  So if a guy comes buy to snathc the purse and she is able to hang onto the purse the pocket is now facing her and she cna shoot through the purse right into him.
I can only imagine what would come up as a gun out of one of my mom purses when I was growing up.
Revolvber with a tissue covered in lipstick and a couple butter scotch hard candies stuck to it.

Yep, I've seen those. I think someone had the right idea.

[JeffG]

But on another note I can see where a back up gun could be a better idea than a reload.

Any gun is just a piece of machinery, they can break down. Who would laugh if I brought another hammer in my toolbox to a jobsite?  But a hammer in each hand might draw some laughs.

[FPH]

I think I'd rather carry one gun and some extra mags than another gun.  I think I could reload quicker than I could get to the BUG.  However it would make sense if your main gun failed. 

X2 .......... I don't usually carry a BUG ( just extra mags.)  I do cut the bottom of my coat pockets out so I can access my gun easily and stealthily if needed.

[Dee]

I always have a J frame in my pocket where legal to do so. When needed or when a jacket/coat is worn I have another gun in a shoulder rig. Seldom but sometimes I have a gun on a belt . But always the Jframe in my pocket. So it goes from primary gun to back up .
 So far this discusion has been about shooting you #1 gun dry and needing a BUG. Or shooting both guns western gun fighter style or such.
 I offer that a small J-frame type revolver can do things a larger auto or for that matter a larget revolver CAN'T DO. I have more times than I would have liked to pulled my J-frame out of my front pocket and had it in hand ready to fire in a coat or jacket pocket while in a bad place.

You know, that just makes good sense to me. Never really thought to much about having something small enough to carry in a pocket. Always used some kind of holster.  But you're right, it's right there where you can have your hand on it, ready to go if needed...smart.

A couple of police officers have told me that they do the same thing and when they walk up to a car and have their jacket on and hands inside their pockets on a chilly night they are pointing a J frame at you asking for a license and insurance.

I know a bunch of officers that were doin this back in the 70s, 80s & 90s. Myself included. Some are dead, and some are retired, but it was just good sense when your backup was a ways off if you needed one. I never actually pointed mine at anyone for no reason, but I had a handful of gun in my pocket. They were backup guns, but some of us called them a "New York Reload".
I never had to use mine in 20 years, and I never knew any of my friends or acquaintances needing theirs either. But they were a comfort.
We trained, weak hand, strong hand, and 1 hand reloads, but our primary training was centered on a two-hand grip, and gettin the first shot off, hopfully a hit. As far as this topic, I played with the idea, and even though as an instructor, and having thousands of rounds available, I could never really get any where with the concept of two guns workin at the same time. Your eyes and head just don't work that way, and accuracy with a strong handed two hand grip in a "real" shooting drops about 63%. Imagine a weak hand, one hand shot with a snubby. All you get is noise. I know trick shooters do it all the time, but the key is "trick", cause ain't nobody shootin back.

[mcwoodduck]

Thanks Dee,
That is the answer I was looking for,
It makes no sense to have both a Primary and a BUG deployed and definatly the smaller gun in the weak hand is going to do little if anything for you two handed.

[SHOOTALL]

Thanks Dee,
That is the answer I was looking for,
It makes no sense to have both a Primary and a BUG deployed and definatly the smaller gun in the weak hand is going to do little if anything for you two handed.

I counter that range would be a game changer as to what the weak hand small gun could do.

[Dee]

I have read police data, where shootouts at less than 10' (which most police shootouts are under 7'), multiple rounds were fired, and NOBODY was hit. Both the spook, and the cop shootin strong hand. EVERYONE was shootin for "RELIEF". Stress, and adrenaline are "negatives" in accuracy.  In close, with a snubby in a "WEAK HAND" is beggin to get that gun taken away from you. I never wanted to be in too close. Most of all, I NEVER wanted anyone to know I even had a second gun. Them NOT KNOWING was to MY advantage. Most other cops didn't even know I carried a "hide out".
I "HAD" a friend that was killed shootin "strong hand", and his gun was STILL taken away from him, and used to kill him. When I was sent in with my K9 to get the guy, I KNEW he was armed with my friend's Sig 45, and that he would use it.
You wanna win, you work with your best weapon, untill it goes down. If it goes down, and your still in a fight, CHANGE YOUR TACTICS, cause the ones your usin ain't workin. LEAVE AND REGROUP if possible. A backup gun should ALWAYS, ALWAYS, be considered as "last resort". A snubby is, what it is.

[Spirithawk]

I'll put it like this. In Wyatt Earp's biography he talks about the use of two guns. Many in the old west carried two, including well known gunfighters. However, as Earp states, no gunfighter in his right mind ever tried firing two at the same time. Only a Greenhorn or someone wishing to commit suicide would try such foolishness and those that tried it in a real gunfight only lived to do so once. True gunfighters might draw both guns together but the purpouse was pretty simple. They'd fire the gun in their strong hand till empty and then do a "Border Shift " switching the still loaded gun from the weak hand to the strong. Now that info comes from someone who was actualy in gunfights and who knew many gunfighters so I tend to put some stock in it.

[SHOOTALL]

Dee with the highest respect you are talking police tatics . I know that it holds true for most cases with police what you say is true with the armed civilian who may find thenselves in a brawl or all out roit where they maybe confined and touching by those wishing to harm him or maybe just the closest target two guns out might be what opens space to run. I won't insult anyone who has not experinced the confines of such a situation by pointing out the need to be there to understand but it is the reason you will not find me in a crowd ever again if at all possible to avoid it. No fireing two guns at the same time would be hard but having the second gun ready and pointing in a direction of concern may hold some at bay. We have gangs here , large gangs . We have gone thru. roits here also. I would ask is it nessary to hold ones pistol aith two hands and see the front sight when drawing your weapon might mean steping back to have room to draw ? To be frank I would love to have a gun in each jacket pocket with hands on them if such a situation comes up again .

[Dee]

SHOOTALL with mutual respect, do I not live in the same world as you? I go to Houston, Kansas City, San Antonio, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City, and on and on. They all have gangs. WE have gangs. Fighting is fighting. It doesn't matter about whether you have a badge or not.
At 7' or less, what type of police tactics do you think would be used? The only tactic is to win the fight. Common sense prevails here. At 7' feet do you really believe I meant that you should use an isosceles triangle shooting stance before the fight starts?
This thread is about "backup guns". The mere term "backup" should indicate "if all else fails". When a Vietnam vet is talking to another vet, he knows whether he's talking to a "combat vet" or a pretender. When I hear someone telling someone else that they would be better off with a gun in each hand, I know that person has never been there, because I have been there, and I can assure you, my badge was not on my mind. Winning the "now heated" discussion was my focus.
Common sense! Can you point one gun in one direction, and the other in another direction, and keep an eye on both? Of course not. While you are watching one spook, another just moved in, and got your other gun away from you. If it comes to a physical fight, you now have BOTH hands tied up, and they will quickly have BOTH your guns. Trust me. It is hard enough to protect ONE gun, let alone TWO. Why do you think I never let anyone know I even had a second?
All this is PERSONAL CHOICE, in PERCIEVED SCENERIOS, but I have given excellent advice, thru practical experience, and years of training. What one does with the info, is up to them, but my info is not based on "theory", and if it will work WITH a badge, it will most certainly work WITHOUT one.

[Dixie Dude]

Some women's purses for CC have piano wire sewn into the sholder straps.  That way a purse snatcher who walks by and cuts the strap to snatch the purse, can't.  I have though about a fanny pack for summer, with shorts and a tee shirt.  They do make fanny pack holsters for that use.  In winter, it is easier to CC with a coat. 

[Dee]

I tried the fannypac, and my male ego kept sayin "purse"!   I went to a inside pants "belly gun" style carry, and shorts and tee are not a problem. It's also much faster acquisition.

[SHOOTALL]

Guess you don't know all the time as I have been in such situations and like I said 7 feet would have been 6 feet more the distance I speak of.
I did not express the police aspect of my statement well . It's not the shooting it's the respect most crowds give police officers and not brush up aginst them or shove and push them.
Protect one gun is hard I agree but I'm not talking a stand off here I'm talking going to shooting at targets comming from several directrions at contact distance or so a crowd turned roit while one gets caught in the middle. I would suggest it might be hard to grab a gun while it is being fired at you by less trained people. Both hands tied up with hard objects that can inflict more damage than bare hands.
I have been home when my home was invaded twice, had a guy jump in my truck once , had a guy try to rob me on the street twice and had a gang come in on a job we were working late one night and start a fight . I admit your methods worked well in all of those . However back in the 70's I got caught in a race roit in down town Richmond and I can tell you none of the other times even come close . So I base my thoughts on those and a few other times where a gun(s) got me out of bad situations when I had them. In the roit two pcs. of pipe got me out.  Please excuse me for not agreeing 100% with you/ya'll but if it happens again I hope to have a gun in each hand on the way to the truck. That dash for the truch was not fun.

[Spirithawk]

I carry crossdraw style. Very easy to conceal with a jacket or untucked shirt and provides easy access even while sitting. That comes in very handy sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle. My weapon is close to the door and unseen by anyone at the car window. I can even have my hand on it unseen and it's very easy to draw standing or sitting.

 
Back to the two guns. I only know one person I'd be worried about if he was coming at me with a gun in both hands. That would be my son and it took him extensive training to be able to fire with both hands equally well. My point being that it can be done but I doubt so by the average Joe who hasn't trained to do so. I can see the intimidation factor if facing multiple threats though.
 

[Dee]

Guess you don't know all the time as I have been in such situations and like I said 7 feet would have been 6 feet more the distance I speak of.
I did not express the police aspect of my statement well . It's not the shooting it's the respect most crowds give police officers and not brush up aginst them or shove and push them.
Protect one gun is hard I agree but I'm not talking a stand off here I'm talking going to shooting at targets comming from several directrions at contact distance or so a crowd turned roit while one gets caught in the middle. I would suggest it might be hard to grab a gun while it is being fired at you by less trained people. Both hands tied up with hard objects that can inflict more damage than bare hands.
I have been home when my home was invaded twice, had a guy jump in my truck once , had a guy try to rob me on the street twice and had a gang come in on a job we were working late one night and start a fight . I admit your methods worked well in all of those . However back in the 70's I got caught in a race roit in down town Richmond and I can tell you none of the other times even come close . So I base my thoughts on those and a few other times where a gun(s) got me out of bad situations when I had them. In the roit two pcs. of pipe got me out.  Please excuse me for not agreeing 100% with you/ya'll but if it happens again I hope to have a gun in each hand on the way to the truck. That dash for the truch was not fun.

What ever works for you, suits me. I was responding to duck's question, and answered you in your response to me.

[mcwoodduck]

Some women's purses for CC have piano wire sewn into the sholder straps.  That way a purse snatcher who walks by and cuts the strap to snatch the purse, can't.  I have though about a fanny pack for summer, with shorts and a tee shirt.  They do make fanny pack holsters for that use.  In winter, it is easier to CC with a coat.

When I would ride my bike (read that as pedal) from one side of town to the other I used a fanny pack as a holster.  The Front pocket held may Disk man and the Holster pocket held my 380.  It seemed good camoflage on the bike and no one at work blinked an eye as I walked in with the head phones on and dumped my fanny pack into my desk draw with a clank.  And at night before closing getting the deposit ready it was not uncommon to see me with a single ear bud in my ear and the fanny pack on the desk or in the isle stocking shelves late in the winter.
My point being is if you are going to use the fanny pack as a holster for an activity it would be good cover such as running, biking, roller blades, or other sport that you sweat and do not want the gun up against your body and usually do not have pockets or a belt in your shorts or pants.  But wearing a fanny pack today would single you out and draw attention to it.  The other thing is it may make you a target.  If you have a wallet with you in your back pocket some one may wonder what you have in the pack and since most buckle in the back it would not be hard ot crowd you and unsnap the buckle  with out you knowing and be off with the pack before you really knew it was gone. 
If you put the wallet in the pack you tend to look down to pull it out and that too makes you a target.  Keeping your head up and looking around and keeping distance between you and a group is going to make other seem like an easier target.  Remember most criminals do not want a stand up fight.  They want what ytou have and want to get away to spend it.  Do not single your self out with something no one else is doing and a big black bag able to carry a full sized gun shouts tactical.  A bright red, blue, or yellow bag shouts look at me and focus on me.  (unless your shirt happens to be bright red, blue, or yellow at the same time)

[SHOOTALL]

No problem I like open respectful debate .

[45-70.gov]

i  am amply-dexterous  with hands and  eyes
tho  i do favor my left hand


years ago  i had to  shoot the 44 exclusively right handed due to an injury and recoil
did this for several years.......but back now to  mostly left handed with A HANDGUN
i shoot a rifle either hand,,,,,....shot  gun  mostly rihgt handed
i don't favor either  eye


that  being  said........i would never consider anything as stupid as having 2 guns OUT  at once


the ''BUG''  is just  that back up
should your primary gun break...get taken or dropped....
or even run out of ammo......not  likely  if you practice markmanship reather than fast reloads

[Dee]

45-70, I too am ambidextrous, but the eyes and mind do not work together in shooting two guns at once, as one might think. You have the idea I think.

[SHOOTALL]

There was a professor at Randoph Macon college that could write two words on the black board at the same time , he might pull it off    . They say he worked on the nuke bomb back in WW2 .