Author Topic: .357 Handi keyholes into paper at 50 yards (Read 1951 times)

MikeNH · « **on:** October 02, 2012, 01:38:25 PM »

I love this rifle but have become really frustrated trying to determine the cause of the inaccuracy. At 50 yds shooting a 9" paper plate, 4 rounds might hit the paper. Of them, 2 will keyhole. This does not happen with cheap factory jacketed RN 357 ammo.

This happens with .357 hard cast lead 158 gr SWC. The rifle has has had about 200 rounds shot through it since it was newly bought in May, 2012. After doing a lot of research I am down to suspecting that the lead bullets are too small.

- Although the box says the bullets are .357 in diameter, they actually measure .355 with a caliper.
- I load with Titgroup powder. I've tried minimum and maximum loads. I've tried no crimp and medium crimp. I've tried these combinations using both .38 spl and .357 mags.

The suspicion is that the diameter of the bullet is too narrow for the lans and grooves in the barrel. Although the .357 jacketed bullet of the same actual .355 diameter did well, I'm thinking the lead bullet needs to be larger.

QUESTIONS:

1 - I've ordered a small sample box of 100 .357 bevel bottom hard cast lead SWC bullets that are advertised as being .360 diameter. I haven't received them yet so don't know the actual measurement. If I load these bullets starting at the minimum powder load, is it dangerous shooting them with this handi?

2 - Why do sellers of the .357 mag bullets have such a variance in the actual diameter. I've see them as advertised in diameters from .355 to .360.

3 - Can I use a .360 hard cast bullet to "slug" the barrel? Slugging a barrel is the method of measuring the rifling (as I understand it) Will ramming a hard cast bullet down the barrel with a hammer damage the barrel?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Mike

tturner53 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2012, 02:05:12 PM »

I think you've figured it out. .355 is way too small. Cast bullets and jacketed are very different. Use the fattest cast bullet that will chamber ok. Make a dummy round up with the .360 and see if it will chamber easily. Probably will.

wileynet · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2012, 03:08:08 PM »

i would not slug with a hard cast bullet, did it once with my 45/70 had to have a gunsmith drill it out use a egg sinker of the appropriate size, and brass rod, dont have a 357 handi but shoot 358 lead out of my ruger blachawk

RIF · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2012, 04:30:21 PM »

There is a variance in size because that is what is needed by the various size bores around they all vary a bit. I think your bore is probably .359" (as that seems to be the default size) and those .360" would be great, same if your bore is .358" just load and shoot them. Do not use a hard lead alloy slug to slug your bore, you will need a pure lead egg sinker or the like and some thin gun oil, I like Kroil. Clean your bore well before slugging it. Send those bullets back as they are way out of spec for any 357 around. Figure out your bore diameter and buy a bullet mold. Take the middleman and his careless quality control out of the equation. You do not need anything as hard as they try to sell you. Lyman #2 or general wheel weight lead is plenty hard enough. I cut my wheel weight lead 50:50 with pure lead for pistols. Most of my lead was free, and I am maybe a cent or two per round fired.

Take care

yukondog · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2012, 04:47:57 PM »

First thing, welcome to the sight Mike. If you can you might find a brass rod at Lowes or your local hardwear store, try to find one as large as you can that will fit the bore, I would not use a hard cast bullet use a egg sinker make sure it's lead and not tin/lead, you should be able to scratch it with your finger nail pretty easy. The oversize lead will shear off win you drive it in and leave a doughnut shape piece, I use wheel baring grease, coat the lead and bore. I would put several Pisces of tape on the muzzle to protect it and drive that puppy through, and you have your slug, at least that's how I do it, others may have a better way. Good luck and let us know how it comes out.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2012, 12:10:06 AM »

WELCOME Mike!

SORRY to read of the problems!

Let me first say I agree with the guys posting so far, BUT let me back up a bit and say CLEAN THE BARREL FIRST! Its likely quite leaded!

Driving a soft lead slug down the bore will be very difficult in a leaded bore! Becareful of your crown! Either use a pull thru system or clean carefully from the breech.

To reiterate Tturner53's comments. Shooting lead is not as simple a medium as many think it is... You need the correct size and composition for the task at hand...
Spendsome time over on the cast bullets part of the board and you will get a idea. BUT as a broad statement and just quickly, you have a number of different "cast"bullets aval to you.

1) SWADGED are avail from the big makers and are nearly dead soft and suitable for light loadings only.
2) Cast bullets are generaly harder but vel shoulc still be limited.
3) Hard cast is suitable for more vel but should nto go too much past mach 1.
4) GAS CHECKED Hard cast are suitable with the fastest velocities atainable form jaketed bullets.

Once you now what you want to shoot/do with the bullet,THEN you need the propper size! A swadged bullet can be as much as .003 larger than your bore (Rem its dead soft lead) as you go harder (Hard cast) the diameter needed (obutrate, this means the bullet actually expands in the bore to seal gases) gets closer to a jacketed diameter.

REMEMBER, also as stated by all, you need to know the bore diameter!

Slugging OR a chamber cast will tell you this information.

Back to your issue at hand, Tumbling bullets are caused by a number of things. A under sized bullet is top that list of probabilities! But, bad barrels, badly fouled barrels and incorrect rifling twist rates are also candidates too...

"Most important, as frustrating as things can be, don't give up, also remember, there are no stupid questions! You will get this one, we can help thru the forum here. Let us know what you find.

Good luck,
CW

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2012, 03:44:22 AM »

MikeNH - Welcome, I think your on the right track, but I would take cw's advice, and clean the barrel first. Then, I would try some factory ammo, and see how it shoots first. Always go the easiest route first, to check your suspicions, before you dive in.

A little off subject, I purchase a Howa 1500 bolt action rifle from an acquaintance, who complained the rifle wouldn't shoot properly. I got it off him cheap. Took it home and cleaned it thoroughly, took it to the range, it still wouldn't shoot. Needless to say after fiddling with it for a while, I notice the stock wasn't tighten enough, and there was a little movement, the problem was easily remedied. Now the gun shoots within an inch at 100 yards.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2012, 04:03:17 AM »

.355 is for the 9mm's and probably to small for lead in that caliber. Yer gonna have to spend a lot of time getting the lead out of your barrel, you may have a quite a bit in there now. DP

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2012, 05:36:32 AM »

If I was going to drive a lead slug through the bore, I would do it from the chamber end, if possible. You have a throat that would help it line up and the rifling will have a slight ramp at the beginning to help get it going up the bore. Make sure to lube every thing up and put the muzzle on a wood block until the slug is ready to come out. I would have a hole drilled, just slightly larger that the bore to finish driving the lead slug out. Just make sure the bore is shinny clean before starting. If I had measured .358" - .360" diameter lead, I would try it before slugging the barrel. As long as you can get them chambered with out turning necks, they should shoot OK.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

parson48 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2012, 06:10:06 AM »

As a side note: If your barrel is leaded much at all, a portion of copper scouring pad wrapped around an brush will make getting it out much easier. Just look closely at the pad, as some of them are copper coated steel. I try to buy the Chore Boy brand, which has worked well for me.

MikeNH · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2012, 06:36:04 AM »

I want to thank you all for these informative replies. The bore has been thoroughly cleaned so as to eliminate that as a cause.
I bought some factory 357 JRP ammo that fired just fine. This brought me to my reloading technique as the cause. I tried various loads and crimpings with no satisfactory change in results.
This leaves the bullet size as the cause. It is not easy to find a lead bullet that is sold in small (100) quantities but I have ordered from Moyer's Cast Bullets.
Again, thanks for all the good advice.
Mike

Land_Owner · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2012, 06:49:20 AM »

Had the same problem at first. Slugged the barrel and started using .357" and .358" diameter lead. Problem (mostly) solved...fired too slow and they will still keyhole.

Quote from: MikeNH on October 03, 2012, 06:36:04 AM

It is not easy to find a lead bullet that is sold in small (100) quantities...

See this post and the GBO Reloading Equipment and Supplies Forum:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,260281.0.html

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2012, 07:37:42 AM »

Howdy Mike,

I have some .358 diameter cast bullets I can share with you. Send me a pm with your address.

Gohon · « **Reply #13 on:** October 03, 2012, 09:40:39 AM »

Quote

It is not easy to find a lead bullet that is sold in small (100) quantities but I have ordered from Moyer's Cast Bullets.

I hope your ordered the gas checked bullets. At 15 BHN and a beveled base you're not going to get top speed without leading and accuracy becoming a issue. Most likely about 1500 fps or so will be about as fast as you can shoot without problems. As others mentioned you most likely had a lot of leading in the barrel. If you think you got it clean then clean again as lead though not difficult to clean out is not as easy as copper fouling. Also if you have shot jacketed bullets through the gun then clean well before shooting lead as copper fouling is sometimes not nice to lead bullets. Good luck...........

Goatwhiskers · « **Reply #14 on:** October 03, 2012, 02:04:53 PM »

Nobody mentioned it yet, but when you slug your barrel, Do Not use a wood dowel to push the slug thru. Might get by OK, but if it splits you will have a real hairball of a problem trying to get the jammed mess out. GW

tom548 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2012, 02:16:53 PM »

They would work if you were shooting a 9MM, way small for the 357.

MikeNH · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2012, 05:17:18 PM »

OOPS! I used a 1/4" inch wood dowel with no problem. Might have been a better idea to use a piece of brass like a spent cartridge of an appropriate size on the end of the dowel.
Anyway, I saw what appears to be odd behavior. I gently tapped the lead slug from the chamber end of the barrel. For about 3/4 of the barrel, the slug had some appropriate resistence going through the bore. Then it suddenly became loose and slide very easily until it got to the muzzel where it suddenly had resistence again as it was just about to exit the barrel.
I used lots of oil first in the barrel and then used a generous amount of resizing lubricant on the slug. This tells me that the barrel is not consistent through its length. Is this possible? Is this at all common?
Mike

srussell · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2012, 07:01:23 PM »

sounds like you might have some tight spots. why don't you drop down to Veral,s forum and ask him about lapping the bore.

keith44 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »

+1 on lapping the bore, and yes it is common. Hunting accuracy can be achieved with this condition, but top accuracy with cast bullets is achieved when the bore gets slightly tighter (1/2 of 1 thousandth of an inch over the length of the barrel)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 04, 2012, 04:28:00 AM »

See BORE SLUGGING in the FAQs, there's a link with pics for the complete process, I always slug from the muzzle using wood dowels as shown in the link, I've done many barrels using the same process, it works very well. Every H&R bore I've slugged has been ~.0005" bigger at the muzzle than at the throat, likely due to the barrels not being stress relieved before they're contoured.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2012, 07:54:50 AM »

It is good to know what your bore/groove dimensions are, but, you dont necessarily want to choose your bullet by them. The throat is the most critical dimension, so the previously mentioned 'use the biggest dia. bullet that when loaded will fit the chamber' (chamber up and eject/extract cleanly) is the key. We have on several occasions cleaned a leaded bore and done as said and had a rifle settle right down and shoot. We typically use 'RangeAlloy' lead (range scrounged and wheel weights, nothing fancy or exotic) at around 1250fps for trials. If it wont shoot these it has more serious issues to contend with.

MikeNH · « **Reply #21 on:** October 06, 2012, 10:04:27 AM »

I've identified the problem; bullets that are too hard (or small?). When I first bought this 357 Handi back in May of this year (2012), the gun was shooting 2/3" groups at 100 yards. I was shooting Remington's swaged "realy ugly" bullets:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601162951?cm_vc=S014
They were dirty to handle but are a joy to shoot in my S&W Model 10 38 Spl revolver and the Handi in both 38 & 367 mag.

Then I bought 1000 158 gr LSWC that are BNH 21 hardness and the same .358 diameter as the swaged bullets. These tumbled and key holed into the paper from 50 yards. Attached are photos of the "old" swaged and the "new" hard cast lead bullets. These differences are surprising to this newbe. These are 38 Spl from 10 yards for the S&W and 50 yards for the Handi.

I'm now iin the process of searching for a bullet that will be reasonable in cost and work for revolver and the Handi in both 38 Spl & 357 mag. I have loaded LSWC bullets that are BNH 15 to see if these are the answer. I have not yet had the chance to test the bullet. Maybe tomorrow.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2012, 12:30:08 PM »

Hard is OK if they are big enough dia. (whereas jackets are SO hard that they can work if they barely catch the rifling because no gas cutting of the bases takes place).
Soft may bump up if a tad small and seal off those gases (they act like a blow torch up the rifling), but if, again, the right dia. to fill that throat, they will work at some pretty stiff velo.
BTW, dont trust what that box of 1000 says for dia., ya gotta measure. All may not be lost with them , you might be able to bump size them up or just sell 'em here on the classifieds right and move on. The PO Flat Rate boxes are your friend for shipping weight (if it fits it ships) like lead.

MikeNH · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2012, 01:09:02 PM »

Again, I appreciate the information...
I bought the1000 bullets that do not work in my Handi 357 from King Shooters Supply (http://kingshooters.com/). I contacted them for advice. They have offered to refund the 1000 even though I have used 200 (+-). Additionally, they said they will include some 9mm Luger at no charge. I can't say enough good things about their customer service. I am sorry that their bullets don't fit my needs.