Author Topic: 22 cal CF's for Deer (Read 5412 times)

BBF · « **on:** October 08, 2012, 09:57:31 AM »

I need some input/opinions on using 22 Centerfire cartridges to hunt Deer.

The Govt in Nova Scotia is being petitioned to allow 22 cal CF's to hunt Deer. The Minister of Natural Resources is also my MLA( equivalent to US State Rep) we had a short phone discussion on the matter and I expressed my misgivings to allow this to happen.

The Minister is not a sportsman/hunter and has little personal knowledge on this matter. My main point are that the Petition would alllow all 22 cal including the Hornet and similar anemic cartridges which IMO is not even close for Deer.

Secondly for the guy/gal that walks into Wal-Mart and buys ammo of the shelf, what is he most likely to find in bullet types.
I would presume up here most if not all of the ammo is loaded with bullets suitable for varmints only. I'm aware that for the handloader a choice of suitable bullet are available. Passing legislation that would only allow that sort of ammo isn't feasible
IYO what brand, bullet weight/style that is commercially produced for IE 222, 223 and 22-250 is ethical to hunt White Tailed Deer not restricted to neck shots.. Ours here are about 100-150 lb live weight.

tacklebury · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2012, 12:28:18 PM »

Most non-varmint listed softpoints can be used on deer. Here's a few examples:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/915179/federal-fusion-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/402682/winchester-super-x-ammunition-223-remington-64-grain-power-point-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/130382/remington-express-ammunition-223-remington-55-grain-pointed-soft-point-box-of-20
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/270634/federal-power-shok-ammunition-223-remington-55-grain-soft-point-box-of-20

mechanic · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2012, 01:09:32 PM »

Any cf 22 cal. or larger is legal in Georgia, but few use them. IMO it's an expert's round for deer hunting, but many give them to children.

Ben

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2012, 01:14:49 PM »

This comes up here often.
But with that said technology takes leaps and bounds every year in bullet and loaded ammo offerings.
This year Winchester is offering a 223 round for Hogs and is designed for medium to big game. Up to about a 200 pouind pig.
For years Federal has been loading a 60 grain Nosler partition as a deer round.
And Winchester and Remington have had 55 to 60 grain soft points for years.
I use a 50 grain soft point on Javilina to great success.
And have seen a 22 Hornet used on smaller swamp deer in NC and it looked like god hit the deer with lightining.
But with the smaller bullet shot placement is key.The 46 grain bullet punched through a rib and disrupted and almost ripped in half and spun all over the rib cage shreading the heart and most of the lungs from 50 to 60 yards away. But what a bullet will do at 2600 FPS is completely different than what the same bullet will do at 3,000 FPS and the speed of the bullet will change the charictaristics of what it does.
My fear is the people that will use a varmint style bullet on a deer with only a mauling and wounded deer running all over.
Some bullets in the 50 to 55 grain are made for medium to large game (50 to 200 pounds) and some in the same weight class are made for varmints. Or bullets that work great out of a 223 at the 3,000 FPS may not work on deer out of a 22-250 at 3,600 FPS.
The bullets made for varmints disrupt quickly as a ghopher, ground hog, or other rodents is not heavily mussled, thick boned, or heavy in hide and a bullet disrupting quickly still penetrates and kills quickly on varmint sized animals but may not enter the chest cavity of a 150 pound white tail.
If they are going to allow it I would look to using one of the 55 to 64 grain bullets designed for medium to big game.
With that said,
When I can carry a 223, I do so with propper bullets designed for those speeds and make sure of my shots.

flintlock · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2012, 02:08:32 PM »

Where I live (North Carolina) we have nothing in the regulations as to what is the minimum caliber for deer...Back in the '70s I bought a Remington 700 in 22-250...I killed several dozen deer with this, with no problems, including the first a beautiful 10 point buck...This buck was hit with a Remington 55gr hollow point at 40 yards...I hit him tight behind the shoulder and he ran about 60 yards and fell...

About 8 years ago one of my brothers bought a 22-250 for his daughter who was 14 at the time...I sighted that gun in with the 60gr Federal Premium Noslers...She has killed over a dozen deer with that gun, none have gotten away and most fell to high shoulder shots...The ones I've cleaned for her had nice exit holes...

Others claim they won't do the job, my experience has been different...

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »

I appreciate your concern for the animals that we hunt, it's completely legit but at the same time you should also have consideration for those of us who might have health problems that prevent us from firing typical deer caliber rifles. .22 centerfires have their place amongst those who might have bad backs or shoulders and recoil shy children also. For some it might mean the difference between being able to hunt or not hunting at all.

Here in NH any .22 centerfire is legal for deer and it's a non-issue. Why? Because nobody picks a .223 or .22 Hornet for their deer rifle unless it's for their child or they have health problems. It's such a small segment of the hunting population that there really isn't any need to worry about it. As far as ethics go, I'm personally more concerned with hunters who shoot 10 bullets a year from the bench to sight in their scoped '06 and then go hunting without ever practicing than I am with someone who practices regularly with a .223.

FPH · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »

22-250 for deer, in .22 cal

LanceR · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2012, 01:32:04 AM »

Why would a bad decision made with a .22 CF be any different from a bad decision made with any other diameter bullet?

New York allows any centerfire rifle for deer and doesn't have an issue with people making bad choices. There may be one or two here and there but you will have that with any cartridge. If someone is not truly familiar with the significant increase of good bullet choices for deer sized game in the last two decades they really should not be considered as an expert or even an informed amateur in this conversation. A wide variety of suitable bullets for deer sized game are available for .22 CF rifles.

As another thought, if someone is going to oppose the use of .22 CF rifles due to possible bad bullet choices then in the interest of fairness and integrity I suggest that they also champion legislation outlawing the use of target and varmint bullets in any caliber. If one really believes there is a need to legislate away bad bullet choices yet the fixation is only on .22 bullets then what you are doing is focusing on a merely potential issue while ignoring a real and existing one.

Over the years I've taken deer with stick, recurve and compound bows, pistol, shotgun, caplock and in-line muzzleloaders and CF cartridges from .22 Hornet to .30-338 Win Mag and none of them ever seemed more dead than the others. As a military long range shooting coach once told me "Son, it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian."

Ultimately, we are each responsible for making competent choices in our equipment and for making ethical choices in the use of the equipment.

The true question here is whether one believes that each of us is capable of and responsible for making good choices or whether you believe a government or governmental agency is needed to attempt to make those decisions and choices. I prefer not to have a Nanny state making those decisions and choices. There is too much of that in our lives now.

Lance

BBF · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2012, 02:29:51 PM »

Thanks for the replies.
Nova Scotia doesn't allow Deer tags for anyone hunting solo under the age of 18 with a firearm and those under direct supervision by an adult(over 18) must be at least 16 years old.

I've had a look what is available in ammo for the 22cal CF's and noticed the additional types of bullets available now.
It boils down to a small number of individuals, mostly hand/reloaders that usually have a large selection of other rifles that look upon hunting Deer with a 22 CF a "challenge" more than a necessity. Since our hunters must be at least 16 years old I am thinking that they could handle at least a 243 Win as long as it is fitted properly. There is a push in Nova Scotia from various individuals and agencies( Enviromental) to see an end of lead bullets for hunting. Perhaps then the time is right to re-visit the use of 22 CF's here, just my opinion.

joeinwv · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2012, 03:44:23 PM »

I have a good friend who I consider a super ethical hunter who uses a mini 14 in .223 every year to successfully hunt whitetails. My cousin uses a Remington 700 in 222 and has taken a deer every year for decades.

Placement is always the deciding factor in an ethical, quick kill - regardless of rifle, bow, spear, whatever.

Frankly, if someone can't kill a deer with a 22-250, having a 243 wouldn't make any difference...

D Fischer · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:04:30 PM »

If you can't kill a deer very dead, very quickly, with a 22LR than having a 458 Win Mag won't make any difference.

bubba15301 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2012, 04:03:39 PM »

i use a savage 99 in .22 savage hipower . i load a 70 grain hornady bullet. velocity is 2850 fps . works very well on deer

BBF · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2012, 06:17:40 AM »

I read ya loud and clear bubba

It is the guy that may have a 22 Hornet with a HP bullet that makes me frown.

Anyway my letter is off to the Minister, we'll see what is going to happen. I'm told there will be no change for this season for sure.

LanceR · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2012, 01:20:40 PM »

BBF, I've used a .22 Hornet with soft points before on a few deer but they were the German Shepard sized Reh deer in Germany...

Lance

keith44 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2012, 08:33:03 PM »

Quote from: BBF on October 11, 2012, 06:17:40 AM

I read ya loud and clear bubba It is the guy that may have a 22 Hornet with a HP bullet that makes me frown.

Anyway my letter is off to the Minister, we'll see what is going to happen. I'm told there will be no change for this season for sure.

Well, I guess I'll just make you frown more...
I have used a .22 K-Hornet loaded with factory .22 Hornet 45 grain soft points to harvest several deer. I chose this round, after having filled my buck tag, to hunt coyotes with, but since I was still holding a valid doe tag when a proper head shot was available the deer (doe) was taken. This is legal here in Ky. As to the laws, if you have a wanton waste law, you do not need to specify a minimum caliber.

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »

Lance
Germany has very strict laws in that regard. Their Reh is smaller than a Great Dane.

Keith. A head shot with an air rifle can kill a deer. With a decent bullet the 204 Ruger would be a better choice than a Hornet.

When and if lead free ammo will be the mandatory bullets for hunting it will make a difference and BTW I prefer lead in my bullets.

jhm · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2012, 06:50:01 AM »

This post comes up every year and there are a few people who go to the extreme to see how little a caliber they can use to HUMANLY take a deer, I for one have never been a fan of a 22 center fire for deer sized game, I believe it using a rifle in a cal. designed for deer hunting not a varmet caliber. Jim

keith44 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2012, 07:06:53 AM »

Quote from: jhm on October 13, 2012, 06:50:01 AM

This post comes up every year and there are a few people who go to the extreme to see how little a caliber they can use to HUMANLY take a deer, I for one have never been a fan of a 22 center fire for deer sized game, I believe it using a rifle in a cal. designed for deer hunting not a varmet caliber. Jim

I gotta agree with ya here. The line gets blurred with the 60 and 75 grain .22 cal bullets though.

I would not recommend setting out to hunt deer with a .22, but if you are out hunting and the opportunity to make meat presents itself (legally and humanely) it can be done.

D Fischer · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2012, 10:29:35 AM »

It seem's I remember that in Germany, the 5.6x57 was developed for hunting Reh Deer. They have a law that say's the cartridge needs to develope x pounds of energy and the only 22 that met that was the 5.6x57. i was there 1967 to 1970 so my memory could be hazy or it has been changed.

Now just for the sake of argument, how many people that would use 22 CF's for deer would not use a 30 carbine?

flintlock · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2012, 10:51:53 AM »

Yep, comes up every year and those that haven't try to tell those that have that you can't........

keith44 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2012, 10:55:56 AM »

Quote from: flintlock on October 13, 2012, 10:51:53 AM

Yep, comes up every year and those that haven't try to tell those that have that you can't........

A good hunter, and careful shooter can be effective with a .22 LR, the average so-called hunter, on the other hand needs a 7000 nitro express full auto mini gun and 10 cases of ammo. At least that's what I've seen around here

tacklebury · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »

I personally see no issue with them as far as killing the animal. What I don't like is the susceptability of .22 centerfires to ricochet off branches etc. We are pretty tight here in central Michigan, so I use a big bore that just muscles through limbs and twigs and drops pretty quick. We're only 3 miles north of the shotgun only line, so I don't want to be the one that gets that line moved due to use of a weapon I know doesn't fit here. If any of you watch Yukon Men (series on cable) it's quite eye opening to see that several of the men use nothing but an AR-15 for hunting everything including Caribou, Bear and even Moose. I don't know as I'd want to take it that far, but those guys eat based on what they can hunt for, so I'd say it'll do what's needed on a small framed Whitetail deer.

FPH · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2012, 12:32:55 PM »

Quote from: tacklebury on October 13, 2012, 12:19:56 PM

I personally see no issue with them as far as killing the animal. What I don't like is the susceptability of .22 centerfires to ricochet off branches etc. We are pretty tight here in central Michigan, so I use a big bore that just muscles through limbs and twigs and drops pretty quick. We're only 3 miles north of the shotgun only line, so I don't want to be the one that gets that line moved due to use of a weapon I know doesn't fit here. If any of you watch Yukon Men (series on cable) it's quite eye opening to see that several of the men use nothing but an AR-15 for hunting everything including Caribou, Bear and even Moose. I don't know as I'd want to take it that far, but those guys eat based on what they can hunt for, so I'd say it'll do what's needed on a small framed Whitetail deer.
[/quote

I favor the .30 cal. for deer. However, as far as a ricochet, even a small branch will send a .50 cal sailing. I was amazed at this when I saw video of many calibers.

tacklebury · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2012, 02:30:56 PM »

Just saying that the lighter the caliber the easier the redirect. Objects in motion in a particular direction, tend to want to stay in that mode of travel. The lighter the object is, the easier it is to redirect its course of travel. Anything can ricochet, but I've shot a .45-70 or .45 colt through a whole tree, cut down several saplings and still had the bullet arrive to nearly it's exactly desired destination. I've shot a .22 bullet through what looked like a perfectly open shot in a scope only to hit a branch about 30 feet ahead of me and have it deflect badly. Bullet shape does have some to do with it also, however, because round balls deflect very easily.

FPH · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2012, 02:47:06 PM »

I have to disagree. After see who easily the .50 cal was deflected by the smallest of branches, I think BC and velocity may have more to do with it. ( the vidio I am reffering to was in Betamax......so you know how long that's been)

ironglow · « **Reply #25 on:** October 13, 2012, 04:34:24 PM »

The .223 round can be quite effective...depends upon the shooter. It would be wise to go to the heavier weights in Gameking for instance..or Hornsdy has a 70 gr guilding metal expanding bullet. A .223 CAN harvest deer though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln1qLy3xSf0

Admittedly though, if this video is real...it is stretching the .223 a bit beyond credulity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSSzOTexSG8

BBF · « **Reply #26 on:** October 14, 2012, 04:12:54 AM »

I posted this apparently "old Hat" topic because for my Province it would be a new thing. I have reservations about this possibility ergo my question. Sorry I bored some of you.

I do like the idea of establishing some sort of energy level for cartridges to hunt specific game based on what is harvestable in your State/Province.

One of the big differences is the attitude between Europe and North America is that hunting over there is considered an Art rather than a Sport.

Buckskin · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2012, 04:37:47 AM »

Quote from: D Fischer on October 10, 2012, 01:04:30 PM

If you can't kill a deer very dead, very quickly, with a 22LR than having a 458 Win Mag won't make any difference.

While I see where you are going with this, it is a poor example. At 100 yards the LR has a less than 100 ft/lbs of energy compared to what 4000??? I guess you could use a 22LR with birdshot for canadian geese too... I guess with correct bullet a 22cal is sufficient, but no reason to. I have several AR's set up for long range varmints and next year my son will be able to start hunting at 10yo. He will us my 7mm-08 mountain rifle, he handles it just fine now so why handicap him with a inferior caliber...

Also, those little southern deer are a good bit smaller than the tobies that rule the woodlands up here...

D Fischer · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2012, 04:41:01 AM »

Quote from: tacklebury on October 13, 2012, 02:30:56 PM

Just saying that the lighter the caliber the easier the redirect. Objects in motion in a particular direction, tend to want to stay in that mode of travel. The lighter the object is, the easier it is to redirect its course of travel. Anything can ricochet, but I've shot a .45-70 or .45 colt through a whole tree, cut down several saplings and still had the bullet arrive to nearly it's exactly desired destination. I've shot a .22 bullet through what looked like a perfectly open shot in a scope only to hit a branch about 30 feet ahead of me and have it deflect badly. Bullet shape does have some to do with it also, however, because round balls deflect very easily.

That is a mistaken belief that was proved false years ago. Any size bullet at any velocity will be effected by branches and limbs.

keith44 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2012, 04:58:05 AM »

Quote from: BBF on October 14, 2012, 04:12:54 AM

I posted this apparently "old Hat" topic because for my Province it would be a new thing. I have reservations about this possibility ergo my question. Sorry I bored some of you.

I do like the idea of establishing some sort of energy level for cartridges to hunt specific game based on what is harvestable in your State/Province.

One of the big differences is the attitude between Europe and North America is that hunting over there is considered an Art rather than a Sport.

Another huge difference is the oppressive regulations and burden placed on those who want to hunt. Over there most things related to hunting permissions include wording that in effect says " at the will of the King / Queen "

I do not want to see any further restrictions placed on hunting.