plan of action ?

[SHOOTALL]

There is much talk about weapons here as to what is best .
 What do you consider when making a choice ?
CAL. ?
Type action ?
Use ?
Location ?
Need to hide it ?
Aval. Ammo ? Re supply ?
Parts aval ?
Solid construction , resistance to failure ?
Accuracy ?
 Power ?
Range of effectiveness when you are using it ? Be honest 
Who will need to use it ?
other considerations ?
 
Note content was changed .............

[charles p]

Whatever you have - will have to work.  Fortunately I have a lifetime supply of reloaded ammo.

[JoseBob]

Yes.  I think you would consider all of the things you listed.  At a minimum, I would think the old Country Boy Can Survive attitude would prevail...  A shotgun, rifle and a 4-wheel drive,  and of course a .45 pistol. 
 
You can vary the application of each, and of course substitute your choice of pistol caliber, ie. 9mm, .357, 40 S&W, 10mm or .45 cal.  Volumes have been written on the different guages of shotguns, caliber of rifles and pistols to use in a SHTF situation.  Most likely it will come down to which ones you use the best, are most comfortable with, and have at hand.
 
I had several different calibers and guages at one time.  I am trying to cut the stable down now.  You know just getting back to the basics.  My 3 keepers are 12 ga. double barrel, 30/30 Winchester, and .40 S&W.  And I will probably keep my Ruger Mk II .22.  It was a Christmas gift from the wife.    Anyway. My .02 worth of opinion.  What ever that is worth... LOL   Draw a fine beed on em Son!   Bobby

[Couger]

 
plan of action? (and self-sufficiency)
 
After selecting the .22LR,
12gauge,
.357Mag in a working wheelgun,
along with the .223 in an AR, as my preparedness "rounds" .....
 
I've strived to pick minimum models of guns, to better effect repairs if needed or at least minimize logistics!
 
If one of my 12ga M870's breaks, I'll rely on the other one but take parts off the first one to keep the 2nd functioning if necessary.
 
Same with my 10/22's or Ruger MKII's!  The greatest feature about the M10/22 (I believe) is its "module-arity" to be setup/converted to almost any purpose a .22LR-user might have plinker. target, backpacker, takedown, etc., etc.).  And the Ruger RST handguns are extremely easy to take apart, service and put back together.
 
And who doesn't envision a "modular" gun when thinking about and building an AR?  Uppers and LOWER's can be selected to create infinite combinations - in size, length, weight, power, cartridge, etc,. etc., etc.  Besides the fact the .223 cartridge and AR-platform in general are great tother!
 
To help facilitate being my own logistician/supplier/gunsmittie - I stay away FROM ANYTHING that could be considered ECPLIPTIC when adding or buying a piece!! 
 
Is my collection "boring?'  NOT to me!   
 

[Ranger99]

i don't have any weapons.


i do keep several firearms & pieces
of cutlery here and there in convenient
locations. samey-same ammo and
barter items.

[mcwoodduck]

My plan of action depends on what I am doing and where I am.
While walking on my morning walks while living in Southern CA I carried a Walther TPH in 22LR.
It was small, stainless steel and was extremely lound.  I carried it for coyotes that were agressive and would attack the dogs that went with me on my walk.
When I lived in Norfolk and would bike from one side of town to another I carried a Sig P230 as it fit in a fanny pack that also held a diskman but was accurate enough for the distances I thought would be needed it I was knocked from my bike while going to or from work.
I now have  J frame that will hide in my pocket that I keep in my car in case I need to walk due to a quake or riot.
The day the OJ verdict came in I had a shotgun in the seat next to me in the car and a 9mm in my belt as I was headed down town in LA and remember watching the King Riots as the police were aquited.
When doing camp chores while hunting I will pack a 44 mag or 357 mag with heavy hunting loads.
One author I read a while ago calles it war gaming.  He thinks with what I have on me or with in my reach can I do if X happens.  Run, stop, fight, flee, attack.....  I do it while sitting in traffic.  What would I do now if ..... happens.  Simple as the person ahead of me breaks down or the one in the lane next to me desides to try to share my lane.
California law does not allow me a CCW so I need to carry deep cover and be able to get to the gun if justified.

[pab1]

One author I read a while ago calles it war gaming.  He thinks with what I have on me or with in my reach can I do if X happens.  Run, stop, fight, flee, attack.....  I do it while sitting in traffic.  What would I do now if ..... happens.  Simple as the person ahead of me breaks down or the one in the lane next to me desides to try to share my lane.

Thats excellent advice! If your brain hasn't "been there" your body often does not (or will not) know how to react. Always run through the "what ifs" especially when you are out in public. Another thing to keep in mind is you perform the same way you train. If you train sloppy you will perform sloppy.

As for the original question. Though far from ideal, the one round I would not want to be without is a .22lr in both a rifle and a handgun. I like a scoped rifle with iron sights for backup. I would also want a handgun chambered in the same round. My number one pick would be a Ruger 10/22 and Ruger Mk III Hunter. I would prefer a round with more power if I knew I could remain in my home or at least know I would have a vehicle to bugout in. In a SHTF situation you can't count on either of those things. I think everything you brought up is important to consider. Here are my views on the points you listed.

CAL.  : For a SHTF situation I want a round that is commonly used in the area I live in. If you have an uncommon round you may be out of luck if you lose the ability to access the ammo you may have set aside. .22lr ammo is common pretty much everywhere.

Type action: I like semiautos but depending on the situation a bolt action or lever action will draw less attention. This is especially true of tactical guns. 

Use ? You need to consider that whatever round you choose might be used to self defense as wall as hunting small and large game. The .22lr is far from ideal for self defense and big game hunting but it has effectively been used for both. Use the right bullet, get close when hunting and place your shot.

Location ? This is the big one IMO. You may not always have the luxury of being in your home with a large supply of ammo you set aside. If things get real bad and you have to leave, how many rounds of centerfire ammo can you carry in a backpack along with everything else you need to carry in order to survive? You need to choose a round that is compact and a large supply can easily be carried without taking up too much space or weight. This is the biggest selling point for a .22lr gun. You can easily carry 1,000+ rounds taking up much less space and adding less weight than a couple hundred rounds of most centerfire ammo.

Need to hide it ? In this situation as I noted above, a bolt action, pump action or lever action will draw less attention than a "tactical" gun. A handgun chambered in the same round as your rifle would be a smart addition since its easier to conceal. 

Aval. Ammo ? Re supply ?  Covered under CAL above. Again, I feel its important to have a gun that ammo is readily available for. This may vary in different parts of the country but .22lr ammo is available almost everywhere.

Parts aval ? Excellent point that many don't take into consideration. Pick a proven gun/action that is reliable and learn how to completely disassemble/reassemble it. Buy all the part that are known to wear down and any other parts available. If possible have at least two identical guns. If one no longer functions you can use it for parts. I don't think you can count on getting any parts or gunsmith services in a SHTF situation so you better know how to do this yourself.

Solid construction , resistance to failure ?  Covered under Parts Avail. above.

Accuracy ? Very important. A gun is almost usless if you can't count on it to hit what you're aiming at. Also covered under Range of Effectiveness below.
 
Power ? Being able to place your shot accurately is more important than power IMO. A powerful round is usually takes up a lot of space and is heavy which like I mentioned above is not ideal for packing in large quantities on your back.  If you are at your home or bugging out in a vehicle this is not as much of a consideration.

Range of effectiveness when you are using it ? Be honest   Another important point. Its much easier to hit a target (especially at an unknown distance) with a flat shooting round than with a round that has a rainbow trajectory. This is a weak point for .22lr ammo. I have been practicing on a 14"X10" steel plate at 320 yards with my 10/22 and Ruger Charger from a rested position. I can hit it about 50% of the time with the 10/22 and 30% of the time with the Charger. My misses are usually within a foot or less. I plan to upgrade the 10/22 and Charger with Burris scopes with Ballistic Plex reticles so I have a positive hold at longer ranges which should improve my percentage of hits. I know of others shooting .22lrs accurately at longer distances. Still, .22lrs are far from ideal for long range shooting. That steel plate is much easier to hit with the .25-06, .270 Win and even my .45-70 handgun. I can shoot very accurately with my MKIII out to 100 yards. Shooting long range makes close shots easier.
 
Who will need to use it ?  This is one area where a round like the .22lr is a good choice. Anyone can learn to shoot it well since recoil and muzzleblast are not an issue. With the low cost of ammo you can afford to train others on with it.

Other considerations ? You can shoot thousands of round of .22lr and train others with this round for less money than 100 rounds of most centerfire ammunition. I reload but I can't help seeing money fly down range when I practice with centerfire rounds. I have never really thought about that when shooting .22lr ammo.
 

[teamnelson]

[Weapons decision matrix in a survival skills thread]


In military branch planning we start with optimal expected conditions, and then take away something, and re-plan; do it again, and re-plan ... keep going until you reach the point at which you have no reasonable chance of success (barring divine intervention). Then go back up a step, and ensure you are manned, trained and equipped for that level. Then go up a level, and do the same, and so on, and so forth. My humble opinion is that many preppers/survivalists start with the best case scenario and prep away, with maybe a nod to a few bad contingencies. This is the pallet of FMJ, and a box of parts and tools with a manual approach ... that's great if things don't get as bad as they could. My decision matrix starts with the worst case scenario ... on foot, nomadic, for an indefinite period of time (think "The Road"), and I have manned, trained and equipped to that level first and primarily, then added some nice to haves.


For that a firearm needs to survive 3+ generations of regular use, with no expectation of parts, tools, or skill to maintain. Must be operable by the small, sick, elderly, young, or injured ... one hand, weak side possibly. Before anyone says they do not exist, I have an 1897 .38 S&W revolver made by Iver Johnson that will put all 5 in a pie plate at 10 paces, and has been safely handled for 4 generations of people aged 4 and up. (No, that's not what I'll be taking, but if its all I had on hand, I'd not use it on myself in despair.)


So for firearms, I like quality revolvers, in a fully enclosed durable holster riding on a durable belt around my waist. Never have to set it down, always within reach, and keeps my hands free for other things. I shoot pistol competition, and take my family pistol shooting primarily in preparation. (All of them have rifles and are proficient in their use as well.)


For calibers, I like .22 and .38/.357. .22 because they're plentiful and effective, and .38/357 because they're easy to cast/reload for, can be loaded with the holy black in a pinch, and a good cast bullet will fell most anything at appropriate ranges with a well placed shot, without causing a flinch in new or inexperienced shooters.


My plan is a .22 in the pack, and a 357 on the hip, for everyone in my party, bare minimum. To that we've also added some other handguns, long guns, and shot guns, a few of which we'll carry as long as we can, but won't cry if we need to drop them to surmount and obstacle for survival. They'll also be handy as long as we're able to stay home or in a fixed location.


Things like range and energy can be compensated for by tactics, skills and practice. Average shot on a deer in the US in 2011 was like 2009 ... 80yds. Doesn't matter if it was a 300WSM, 308, 30-30, or 357; at 80 yds the deer don't know the difference. And if we're in a worst case scenario, deer will be rare ... cats and other rodents will be a delicacy. I know most people worry about engaging well armed gangs bent on rape and destruction, and I do not doubt that's a possibility. There are other ways around that too, that don't involve wife and children in SAAPI carriers, toting an M4 with beta mags ... I suspect.

[pab1]

My decision matrix starts with the worst case scenario ... on foot, nomadic, for an indefinite period of time (think "The Road"), and I have manned, trained and equipped to that level first and primarily, then added some nice to haves.

Not military but thats pretty much  how I try to plan also. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they will always have their home, vehicle, food/other supplies and don't plan beyond that.

[teamnelson]

pab1, I agree. I don't believe you can over think survival, but I do believe you can overspend into a feeling of false security. Some of us have seen things to where it requires no imagination to predict how bad things can get in a hurry, and you don't have to worn a uniform for that. Pray it never happens, and keep yer powder dry!

[billythekid55]

I have seen several posts for a .357 revolver: always with you, reliable, durable, easy to use, completely enclosed holster.
Will others share their preference for a carry with you all the time revolver?
material - stainless vs blued
barrel length - 4",5",6" or longer
action - single or double
sights - adjustable rear, ramp front, blade front
capacity - 6, 7, 8 rounds
safety device - key lock on some - has anyone had gun lock when they did not want it to?
I realize there will be differing opinions on the following: manufacturer - S&W, Ruger, Taurus, others

[teamnelson]

I have seen several posts for a .357 revolver: always with you, reliable, durable, easy to use, completely enclosed holster.
Will others share their preference for a carry with you all the time revolver?
material - stainless vs blued
barrel length - 4",5",6" or longer
action - single or double
sights - adjustable rear, ramp front, blade front
capacity - 6, 7, 8 rounds
safety device - key lock on some - has anyone had gun lock when they did not want it to?
I realize there will be differing opinions on the following: manufacturer - S&W, Ruger, Taurus, others

My go to on that day will be a S&W 627 Performance Center, 8 round, matte stainless, 5" barrel, gold dot front, adjustable rear. Has the safety lock on it, but I just ignore it. Never disappoints, same capacity as a 1911, but a lot more reach. Its heavier, but the slab barrel and tapered lug help, and it rides fine on the hip.


Each of my girls (wife and daughter) will have a S&W 586, blued, 4 inch full lug - one is a 7 shot with the lock, the other is a 6 shot pre-lock nice trigger. (Matches their 357 rifles.) I think the L frame S&W are the best all around size.


Son has a pre-model 66 Taurus (unmarked) 357 with a 6" barrel, blued, walnut grips. Very nicely crafted gun; won't trade it for a Smith.


My get home piece/ccw is a Taurus 606 357 ported snubbie, 6 shot, stainless.


You'll notice I prefer S&W, but have some Taurus. Taurus are great when they're great, and all of the ones I have bought have been great ... but there are plenty I didn't buy that weren't so great. I would be equally happy with a Ruger GP100 or even an SP101 - I have an SP101 in 32H&R and love it. Bank vault strong actions. I believe their Convertible Blackhawk in 357/9mm would be an excellent option as well. If I were buying my first 357 all over it would probably be a GP100 stainless 7 shot, or 6 shot police turn in.

[billythekid55]

Each of my girls (wife and daughter) will have a S&W 586, ... (Matches their 357 rifles.)...

I had a chance to shoot a .357 rifle at a range a while back. The other shooter only had .38 spl ammo. The rifle was a Henry lever action and had quite a bit of weight. The recoil was hardly anything at all.
 
I see an advantage to having the same cartridge for both rifle and handgun. The ability to shoot low cost, low recoil cartridges for training and practice is also an advantage.

[Victor3]

Whatever you have - will have to work....

 Last Sunday my 13 year old Son and I were out plinking at one of our favorite spots, 20+ miles from cell phone service and about the same distance from any habitation. I got to thinking about what guns we had with us and what we would take if we had to hoof it a long way from the truck for some reason and survive for a lenth of time if we happened to be caught out there during a major disaster back in civilization. We had...
T/C Hawken 50 cal caplock with 20 shots
Savage mod 24, 22lr over 410 shotgun with one box of shotshells and ~200 rounds of 22 solids
M1 Carbine with ~150 rounds and two 15 round mags
30 cal Automag pistol with one mag (same ammo used for carbine)
H&R single shot in 223 with 50 rounds of ball
S&W mod 640 (five shot 38 snubbie) with 100 rounds of low velocity wadcutters and 5 rounds of Silvertip
 
 I figured the best bet would be to give him the Savage and S&W, while I carried the carbine and Automag. The other two rifles would be stashed due to their weight and lack of ammo.
 
 However, at the end of the day we'd shot up all of the 30 carbine and 38 wadcutters, 5 shots for the T/C,  ~20 rounds of 223, and hardly any 22lr or 410.
 
 So bring extra ammo along for ALL of the guns you might want to carry with you in an emergency. 

[Couger]

 
Great thread.  Lots of good thoughts.
 
For preparedness/contingencies/emergencies/food-foraging and minimum defense, hard to beat a .22 Long Rifle!  Of course most posters have indicated they believe the same.
 
Sidearm?  Remember to NOT handocap yourselves by making a .357 your only choice!
 
If I expected to be in gang-territory where 2-legged threats might likely be multiple X multiple, darn straight I'd consider a combat piece in 9mm, .40smith or .45!
 
Ammo would be selected to accomodate average-likely-scenarios, regardless of cartridge or weapon type or locale! (of course!)
 
But in a rural setting where 2L threats should be fewer than the city, I'd carry a 5 or 6shot Ruger .357 in the lower 48, [/color]and NEVER a .38spc'l!  Altho 80-90 percent of my ammo would indeed be .38 fodder.  And anyone contemplating a revolver-purchase I'd only encourage in .357 as well!  After explaining they need to consider shooting .38 ammo most often, as long as they understand that while a .38 or .44 special can be fired in a Magnum gun, they cannot shoot magnum-fodder in a "special" gun!
 
Also in a place like Alaska I'd go with a .44Mag wheelgun instead of the .35cal.     But again 80-85 percent of fodder would be 44 Special! - [/color]YES I'm a reloader and the .38 or .44 special fodder would be for more pleasant to shoot during longer range sessions!)
 
When in the house where an intruder would be dealt with at shorter ranges (7yds on average in the USA - alledgedly from the eggspurts!) I would use .38 HP's (or .44 Special HP's ) when more appropriate, rather than more powerful "magnums" that might blow through multiple walls, doors or furniture.
 
However, if in the field or rural areas my ammo would include heaviest loads for biggest threats or dangers (bear loads, 10-12 total), but also mild loads for small game hunting (20-30 perhaps?), a few snake-shot loads (10-12 total), and even a couple loads with tracers or small flares for emergency signaling.
 
Two unique .22's I have or want; my Marlin Papoose with 3 ten-rd magazines, and a NAA Mini-Master with its 4in bbl and both .22LR and .22WMR cylinders!  This last one to have limited defense, but also an accurate-enough, aim-able barrel to take SG.
 
Some people think a .22LR coupled with a .45C / .410 shotgun (like the Rossi's or H&R's "Survivor") are the ultimate cartridge combo's for survival contingencies.
 
I suppose that might be a good choice in a rugged state like Alaska (Idaho, Wyoming or Montana?)  if those guns would also handle +P or +P+ loads (.44Mag energies!) in the .45Colt .....
 
But in the lower 48 states I would prefer (I think this might be a good choice) a shortened, heavily modified Handi-Rifle w/ 16in bbl in .357 MAXIMUM would make a BETTER, more SENSIBLE survival gun!  [/b]
 
The .357 MAXI shoots .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads, but also more powerful MAXI-loads with bullets weighing 200grns or heavier. 
 
The .357 Maximum easily reaches .44 Magnum energies! 
 
Its also a neat round to shoot, hunt with and play with! As well as using sidearm ammo.    [/b]
 
A gun in the .357Maxi could take mice to grouse to deer to ..... bigger? 

[SHOOTALL]

One author I read a while ago calles it war gaming.  He thinks with what I have on me or with in my reach can I do if X happens.  Run, stop, fight, flee, attack.....  I do it while sitting in traffic.  What would I do now if ..... happens.  Simple as the person ahead of me breaks down or the one in the lane next to me desides to try to share my lane.
I have read this alot also keeps you thinking .

Thats excellent advice! If your brain hasn't "been there" your body often does not (or will not) know how to react. Always run through the "what ifs" especially when you are out in public. Another thing to keep in mind is you perform the same way you train. If you train sloppy you will perform sloppy. same with cheap choices on equipment

As for the original question. Though far from ideal, the one round I would not want to be without is a .22lr in both a rifle and a handgun. I like a scoped rifle with iron sights for backup. I would also want a handgun chambered in the same round. My number one pick would be a Ruger 10/22 and Ruger Mk III Hunter. I would prefer a round with more power if I knew I could remain in my home or at least know I would have a vehicle to bugout in. In a SHTF situation you can't count on either of those things. I think everything you brought up is important to consider. Here are my views on the points you listed.Here i tend to think when hoofing it any thing that is carried must be able to do more than one task. a 22 no doubt is a good game getter and more rounds can be carried but as a defense round it is lacking in stopping power. The idea of a 223 bolt gun with a 22mag  adapter might be a good set up.

CAL.  : For a SHTF situation I want a round that is commonly used in the area I live in. If you have an uncommon round you may be out of luck if you lose the ability to access the ammo you may have set aside. .22lr ammo is common pretty much everywhere. I was thinking more along the line of aquireing it from others in LE or military wanting to trade .

Type action: I like semiautos but depending on the situation a bolt action or lever action will draw less attention. This is especially true of tactical guns.   

Use ? You need to consider that whatever round you choose might be used to self defense as wall as hunting small and large game. The .22lr is far from ideal for self defense and big game hunting but it has effectively been used for both. Use the right bullet, get close when hunting and place your shot.I agree far from ideal. also the 22 rim fire is the least sealable round and often effected by moisture , it dosen't survive as well as centerfire in harsh enviroments.

Location ? This is the big one IMO. You may not always have the luxury of being in your home with a large supply of ammo you set aside. If things get real bad and you have to leave, how many rounds of centerfire ammo can you carry in a backpack along with everything else you need to carry in order to survive? You need to choose a round that is compact and a large supply can easily be carried without taking up too much space or weight. This is the biggest selling point for a .22lr gun. You can easily carry 1,000+ rounds taking up much less space and adding less weight than a couple hundred rounds of most centerfire ammo.I agree you can tote more 22 lr ammo but if you must shoot more times to get the job done what have you gained ? I would think say east of the Mississippi river most game would be gone in a matter of days if a real bad situation came up where people were killing critters for food. So if you shot it would draw attention , fishing and trapping would be a better plan. I would be inclined to go with a 308 adding a 30 carbine adapter ( I have this set up and it is very good , better than I thought it would be) and though 30 carbine weighs more with good HP ammo it is almost the equal of a 357 mag. yet still light enough to carry 3-400 rounds along

Need to hide it ? In this situation as I noted above, a bolt action, pump action or lever action will draw less attention than a "tactical" gun. A handgun chambered in the same round as your rifle would be a smart addition since its easier to conceal. my thought was not drawing attention but hiding it say when you need to enter an area to get supplies or medical help or such . you might need to really hide it . or say if you are in a vehicle or such.

Aval. Ammo ? Re supply ?  Covered under CAL above. Again, I feel its important to have a gun that ammo is readily available for. This may vary in different parts of the country but .22lr ammo is available almost everywhere.maybe true if it still works but 40 s&s , 9mm , 223/5.56 , 308 etc may be more so.

Parts aval ? Excellent point that many don't take into consideration. Pick a proven gun/action that is reliable and learn how to completely disassemble/reassemble it. Buy all the part that are known to wear down and any other parts available. If possible have at least two identical guns. If one no longer functions you can use it for parts. I don't think you can count on getting any parts or gunsmith services in a SHTF situation so you better know how to do this yourself.

Solid construction , resistance to failure ?  Covered under Parts Avail. above. bolt gun 

Accuracy ? Very important. A gun is almost usless if you can't count on it to hit what you're aiming at. Also covered under Range of Effectiveness below.
 
Power ? Being able to place your shot accurately is more important than power IMO. A powerful round is usually takes up a lot of space and is heavy which like I mentioned above is not ideal for packing in large quantities on your back.  If you are at your home or bugging out in a vehicle this is not as much of a consideration. My thought is if it won't cover all or most needs it won't work. Why tote a gun for days or miles only for it to not be what you need ?

Range of effectiveness when you are using it ? Be honest   Another important point. Its much easier to hit a target (especially at an unknown distance) with a flat shooting round than with a round that has a rainbow trajectory. This is a weak point for .22lr ammo. I have been practicing on a 14"X10" steel plate at 320 yards with my 10/22 and Ruger Charger from a rested position. I can hit it about 50% of the time with the 10/22 and 30% of the time with the Charger. My misses are usually within a foot or less. I plan to upgrade the 10/22 and Charger with Burris scopes with Ballistic Plex reticles so I have a positive hold at longer ranges which should improve my percentage of hits. I know of others shooting .22lrs accurately at longer distances. Still, .22lrs are far from ideal for long range shooting. That steel plate is much easier to hit with the .25-06, .270 Win and even my .45-70 handgun. I can shoot very accurately with my MKIII out to 100 yards. Shooting long range makes close shots easier.same for bullet , if it can't do the job when it gets there what good is it ? I would think better to have a better bullet make the trip .
 
Who will need to use it ?  This is one area where a round like the .22lr is a good choice. Anyone can learn to shoot it well since recoil and muzzleblast are not an issue. With the low cost of ammo you can afford to train others on with it.most anyone who can shoot can shoot a 30 carbine or 22 mag in a bolt gun .

Other considerations ? You can shoot thousands of round of .22lr and train others with this round for less money than 100 rounds of most centerfire ammunition. I reload but I can't help seeing money fly down range when I practice with centerfire rounds. I have never really thought about that when shooting .22lr ammo.You have a great point and a Ruger 7722 or Ruger 7722 mag both make great training rifles for M77 rifles in larger calibers  My 7722 has a 26 in med weigh bbl so its a ringer for the larger gun,
thanks for your reply and don't take my thoughts as argument but just a different view . If weight permits a 22 pistol will be in my kit along with some ammo sealed to protect it. BUT WEIGHT IS EVERYTHING .

[pab1]

don't take my thoughts as argument but just a different view .

Not at all. Its good to hear as many views as possible and you made some great points. Excellent topic!

[SHOOTALL]

The real risk is anything we pick will in some situations be useless .

[pab1]

Also in a place like Alaska I'd go with a .44Mag wheelgun
 

If I had to bugout I would have a hard time not taking one of my .44 mags and at least one hundred rounds.
 

[Ranger99]

if we're talking shtf/ teotwawki/ apocalypse
i wouldn't want to be hemmed in some place
for the last firefight of my life. i'd say it'd be
drop rucks and e&e . with the gang/mob mentality
of the 21st century i'd want to be as stealthy as
possible. to me that would be not using shotguns/
large rifles/large pistols except as a last resort
or for e&e. blend in - stealth - silence .

[SHOOTALL]

yea no need to draw attention from anyone even if you decide to take up with a group of like minded folks. it also makes an argument for suppressors  , traps  and fishing 

[Couger]

 
Crisis?  (still lots of good ideas here)
 
SHTF?
 
The Chicago THUG gets fired Nov 6th    and cities and certain populations riot!!??
 
One thing I will not do is seek to be with anyone but myself or immediate family/friends as I/we try to trek my way home 1st!  (to better avoid trouble, violence, being rounded-up and crammed/inprisoned in the SuperDome!?  memories of Nawlunz and Katrina?)
 
Getting home when a crisis strikes will be NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.
 
Secondary and longer-term priorities will grow from that point.
 
.22's?  May not be the best defensive weapon, but if I could have only ONE firearm, 9 times out of ten it would be a .22LR!  Altho I'd be looking for something bigger to add to it asap!
 
ADDED:  several times in other threads/posts I've tried to mention storing many specialized .22 ammo for SHTF-times ...... but in this case (bugging home) I would pack at least 100 hundred rounds of CCI Velocitors (most powerful .22LR currently available) and at least 100 rounds of standard velocity .22LR fodder my piece shoots reliably!  (for hunting, bartering?, for whatever!).  Those 200 rounds (minimum) would be for rifle or HG, whatever my .22 might be! 
 
Of course if I had a .22WMR,  I would still have 100rds of defensive ammo, but also 100 hunting rounds, maybe even milder .22WRF rounds that still shoot well in a WRF chamber/gun!
 
Who here doesn't know what the .22WRF is? (Winchester Rim Fire)  Compared to the .22WMR?  Knowledgable .22WMR owners should know the WRF rounds are viable substitute-fodder for their .22 magnums!  But are quieter and milder than the full-blown magnum WMR's.  Great for hunting or being discrete[/u].[/b]  I don't own a .22mag at present, but the mild, much older (obsolete?) .22WRF round I think is still useful when a more mild round is called when shooting a .22WMR firearm. Check 'em out![/b] 
 
 

[Couger]

War gaming?  Weapons decision matrix?
 

  Weapons decision matrix in a survival skills thread ...... In military branch planning we start with optimal expected conditions, and then take away something, and re-plan; do it again, and re-plan ......   

These sound like good philosophies / tools of instruction!  But any books or sites to recommend?  Regarding these? 

[Ranger99]

have to be dave canterbury.
only one i mostly agree with as far as
having gear ready to go , as opposed
to the make a fire drill/make rope/make
a brush lean-to crowd. i can do those, but when
a 100ft piece of para-cord (or several) will
easily fit in my pocket, why bother with
using a day and a half to make a vine rope?
most folks i know carry basic survival gear
daily without thinking of it as survival gear.


yep. . . .dave

[pab1]

have to be dave canterbury.
only one i mostly agree with as far as
having gear ready to go , as opposed
to the make a fire drill/make rope/make
a brush lean-to crowd. i can do those, but when
a 100ft piece of para-cord (or several) will
easily fit in my pocket, why bother with
using a day and a half to make a vine rope?
most folks i know carry basic survival gear
daily without thinking of it as survival gear.


yep. . . .dave

I like Daves approach too. On the other hand, you can never assume that you will have your gear. There are many situations where you can loose everything, including the pocket your paracord was in. IMO, knowledge is more valuable than gear. I always want to have survival gear with me but I want to know how to get by without it just in case.

[pab1]

ADDED:  several times in other threads/posts I've tried to mention storing many specialized .22 ammo for SHTF-times ...... but in this case (bugging home) I would pack at least 100 hundred rounds of CCI Velocitors (most powerful .22LR currently available) and at least 100 rounds of standard velocity .22LR fodder my piece shoots reliably!  (for hunting, bartering?, for whatever!).  Those 200 rounds (minimum) would be for rifle or HG, whatever my .22 might be! 

I would add some plated roundnose or CCI SGB bullets that penetrate deeper and some sub-sonics also.

[Ranger99]

that's why i've learned the skills i've
learned since my scout days. but i
see some of these guys tear up
usable gear on their videos and shows
and i cringe.
like the guy that tears up his belt to
make strings. how much trouble now
to make a belt? breaking a usable
flashlight to make a fire, then spending
half a day to make a torch to see at night
with? the main one is saying to use your
knife for a spear. how much trouble to
make a new knife if broken while using
as a spear? that's what i was meaning.
i'll never sacrifice a piece of usable gear
unless i absolutely knew i could replace
it easy or had an extra for back up.


law of the seven p's

[teamnelson]

War gaming?  Weapons decision matrix?
 

  Weapons decision matrix in a survival skills thread ...... In military branch planning we start with optimal expected conditions, and then take away something, and re-plan; do it again, and re-plan ......   

These sound like good philosophies / tools of instruction!  But any books or sites to recommend?  Regarding these? 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/mcwp/5-1/mcwp5-1_2001.pdf
Marine Corps Planning Process


Also look at ORM, and my favorite: The OODA Loop. Not so much about planning, but good for the brain.


Most people's immediate answer to SHTF is to Bug In. Ideally you have a self-sufficient homestead with 2-5 years of LTS food, and all the preps money can buy. J Rawles is jealous of your preparedness. Your BOV was used in the movie Damnation Alley. And somewhere in there you have some camping gear and packs. You are the world's greatest sniper, and your wife is a trauma surgeon with 10 years experience in 3rd world medicine. You are set.


War gaming that model, you pick one of your resources and eliminate it. Example: biker gang of the apocalypse descends on your home, you kill them all, but not before they've managed to detonate your fuel stores with a road flare and a bottle of shine. Fire spreads to your house. You are left with your BOV and all the gear you could cram in it, everyone survived.


Next dependency: BOV. You're driving down the road, along with a thousand other vehicles. They've panicked, there were accidents. A major bridge has been taken out, and the tunnel is flooded. The terrain will not allow your BOV to continue. You are left with all the camping gear you can carry, any that you want, and your selection of firearms. You have 50 miles to go to your backup BOL (which is actually an old missile silo that could survive an asteroid strike). Its now you, your trauma surgeon wife, and your two kids aged 9 and 7, and Fluffy.


... and so on. Eventually its down to you, missing your strong arm, left with nothing but a loincloth and a P-38. But somewhere before you got there, you reached your tipping point. That is what you prep for first; whatever skill, knowledge or gear for that moment. That is where you start. Then you back up, and so on.

[Couger]

These sound like good philosophies / tools of instruction!  But any books or sites to recommend?  Regarding these? 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/mcwp/5-1/mcwp5-1_2001.pdf
Marine Corps Planning Process

Also look at ORM, and my favorite: The OODA Loop. Not so much about planning, but good for the brain.

Most people's immediate answer to SHTF is to Bug In .....

Thanks for the "sources."  As for bugging in, my zeal to get home is round up and account for ALL family members, put our heads together (and any intel) before embarking on next steps!
 
One (possibly HUGE) thing that can be a game changer and avoid a lot of strife, is to have a preplanned location for everyone to meet that may not be the home or retreat. 
 
But how many wimmins, or non-camping types might NOT agree to give-up their happy familiar surroundings?
 
Of course they may not have a choice (or for very long), and alternative plans and preplanned locales and meeting places are good ideas, and alternative methods of communicating too (still figuring that one out myself).
 
One huge topic that folks here at GBO might should to discuss and flesh-out is
 
situational awareness!

I mention this topic because I think its an indispinsable and necessary tool when trying to survive travel to or from home (yeah duh!  but fundamental tools should one always use and never forget?  one example!).
 
intel gathering is another topic that needs an ample forum here too, IMO.  [/font]

[teamnelson]

A couple more good reads: Small Wars Manual, The Tigers Way, MCWP 3-11.2 Rifle Squad, MCWP
3-35.3 MOUT Doctrine

We all can't afford to have a caddy follow us around handing us the perfect gun for the moment.
That's why we have to really strip away a lot of presumptive thinking, and find one that works
90% of the time, and maybe one more for the other 10%.