Turning a Handi into a 500 yd. Rifle??

[HR308shootin]

im new to this site, and wanted to start by saying i just recently bought a H&R .308 ultra. i got to thinking and i would love to turn this little gun into a long range plinker. ive had even a gunsmith tell me he can do anything i wanted to that rifle and it would never be a 500 yd. gun. for some reason, i DISAGREE. im looking into getting the trigger lightened down to 3.5 pds, a 4-12x40 nikon prostaff scope, and maybe sanding down the stock to make it free floated like ive seen some do on here. and also i heard h&r makes a 26 in. barrel for these? im at 22 right now and would consider getting one if they make them? can anyone tell me what they think of this? am i crazy or can it be done? any input would be appreciated.

[Ranger99]

why did he say you couldn't make
it shoot ?


because it didn't cost several
thousand dollars?


   sounds like some of the web commandos
   i've been around. . . . .

[Ranger99]

i'd find another gunsmith to visit

[petemi]

i'd find another gunsmith to visit

My sentiments exactly.  Within the last week or ten days I shot a group of three at 300 yards you could cover with a quarter using my bad right eye.  It would still be under two inches at 500.  The rifle is a Handi .243.  Sourdough regularly makes kills at 500 with Handis.  If they couldn't do it, he'd be using something else.  Tell your "gunsmith" I said to stop around some time and try it.

Pete

[HR308shootin]

he said "the barrel just doesnt have the "meat and potatoes" to reach out that far. he isnt a gunsmith ive visited, just one i seen online and considered getting a trigger job done from, but thats a huge sigh of relief. and from what i shot this past weekend with it, i beleive its 100% possible. i was shooting 3 shots at 100 yards, and a dime covered up all 3. and thats with a 3-9 bushnell cheapy. thanks for the replies, and more are welcome!

[Singleshotsam]

If your rifle holds a 1" group at 100 yards (1MOA - 1 minute of angle) then it will hold a 5" group at 500 yards (Which would be 1 MOA)  It requires a lot of practice, and willingness to learn as well as a fair amount of cash to shoot that much and that far.  But as long as the rifle does it's part and much more importantly, you do YOUR part of practicing good fundimentals, then 500 yards is a breeze.

Handi or not...
 

[Spanky]

There's no reason a Handi can't be a long range shooter. It wouldn't be my first choice but it can be done.
 
 
 
Spanky

[mechanic]

There are not a lot of high dollar guns that will shoot MOA out of the box, no matter what the smith said.  Unless you want to spend some really big big bucks for a custom build, you ain't likely to outshoot 1MOA.  You already have a 500 yd. gun.   Those sniper shots you see on TV?  That gun didn't come out of an assembly line box....
 
Ben

[HR308shootin]

If your rifle holds a 1" group at 100 yards (1MOA - 1 minute of angle) then it will hold a 5" group at 500 yards (Which would be 1 MOA)  It requires a lot of practice, and willingness to learn as well as a fair amount of cash to shoot that much and that far.  But as long as the rifle does it's part and much more importantly, you do YOUR part of practicing good fundimentals, then 500 yards is a breeze.

Handi or not...

so if its shooting a half inch at 100 right now, it will shoot a 2.5 inch group at 500? like i said that was also with a cheap scope and those heavy a$% triggers they come stock with, i plan on changing both of those in hopes of helping with accuracy. im loving this site already, quick responses and friendly people!

[dk17hmr]

I had a 22-250 AI NEF for a short while and shot it out to 800 yards on a couple range trips.  Give it a try as is and see what happens.  You will get plenty of velocity out of a 22" barrel to shoot 500 yards.  I shoot my 14.5" AR15 223 a good bit further than 500 yards and ofter shoot 14" Contenders passed 500 yards.
 
Give it a try!

[HR308shootin]

appreciate the input guys, long range shooting is just as much the shooter as the gun, i just wanted to make sure the gunsmith telling me that was completely off. i plan on taking it back out here soon and maybe trying 250-300 and then move up from there.

[Ranger99]

hr308,
there is as much fertilizer on the web
as there is golden nuggets of info.
i've been around and worked with folks
that got all their info off some "sniper"
website and it was bs garbage. i don't
claim to be an expert, but what i know
is from experience, and i can shoot decent
because i shoot and practice. a lot of folks
that write about long shots and hunting
have never harvested a wild-a&& deer or
hit a varmint.  i was told one time on a
cull hunt that our gear was inadequate
and that we shouldnt try to hunt. we had
a 1950 marlin 30/30 and a 60.00 pawn shop
handi. we brought home 5 one shot kill deer,
they brought home 1 ( shot 5 times with a
2500.00 rig)  don't let "experts" talk down to you.


bs usually smells like what it is.


good luck with it.

[Ranger99]

trigger jobs are in the handi faqs here


good info- not fertilizer

[HR308shootin]

hahaha yea i usually dont go by info on the web, but i havent had the chance to test it out yet. i had absolutely no doubts, just wanted to hear some input. glad to hear theres alot of handi fanatics like myself. im already growing on them, would like to add 1 or 2 more in different calibers to my collection hehe..

[Ranger99]

there are folks here that can be more
helpful than i about the long-range shots.
i like mine in bow range or a bit longer
if possible. i'm hooked on that adrenaline
shot from having deer close enough to
spook if you blink at the wrong time.


i do pop a coyote or crow at 200+ -
when the opportunity may present itself.


again, good luck & read the f.a.q.'s
i still haven't got all the way through.

[HR308shootin]

there are folks here that can be more
helpful than i about the long-range shots.
i like mine in bow range or a bit longer
if possible. i'm hooked on that adrenaline
shot from having deer close enough to
spook if you blink at the wrong time.


i do pop a coyote or crow at 200+ -
when the opportunity may present itself.


again, good luck & read the f.a.q.'s
i still haven't got all the way through.

yea ive read some of the faq's, pretty interesting stuff. most of my shots on deer are less than a hundred yards, but i would still like to make this gun a shooter. ive never really experimented with it but id like to get into that kind of stuff. never know when youll see a B&C buck the next field over, haha.

[Sourdough]

Don't feel bad when gunsmiths say derogatory things about your Handi.  I've heard them all myself.  They will dispute my effective shots made with Handi's as being impossiable, the gun is too cheap to make those kind of shots.  Yea, tell that dead Wolf I shot at 480 yards, or the Fox I hit at 600 yards.

The Handi is capable of shooting 500 and on out to 700 yards, most people aren't.  I shoot out to 500 yards all the time with my Handi in 30-06 and 25-06.  The 25-06 actually reaches out better than the 30-06.  The only thing I have done to both guns is reduce the trigger pull, put an O-ring under the forearm, put a good scope capable of handling a 700 yard shot or farther, then shooting.  I have worked up loads, that have the energy to reach out and touch things.  165gr Sierria HPBT for the 30-06, and a Nosler 110gr Accubond for the 25-06.  I will not hesitate making a 50 to 500 yard shot with either gun.  Both guns will make 700 yard shots, but I don't like the lack of bullet performance after 500 yards.  Everything has to be just right or I will pass on the 700 yards shots.  Depends on what I am shooting at.  A Fox or a Lynx, I'll take a shot on out past 700 yards, they are delicate animals, and easy to kill.  A wolf is different they are harder to kill, 500 with the 30 cal and 600 with the 25. 

I consider maximum effective range to be where I have a minimum of 2000 fps velocity, and 1000 ft lbs of energy.  I carried a .308 for 14 years.  It was my only high powered rifle.  I shot everything with it, from Antalope to Moose.  I started working on shooting at longer ranges, and thought the .308 was it for long range shooting.  I killed several Mule Deer at 300 yards and on out to 500 yards.  I even shot a Caribou out to 715 yards, finishing it with one shot.  Someone else had already shot it and it was getting away, so I took the long shot to prevent a lost animal.

The Handi in .308 will reach on out there, well past 700 yards accurately if you do your part.  But your maximum effective range is not near that far for hunting most game animals.  Your best bullets are the 125gr MV 3030 fps for a Max Eff Range of 375 yards, and the 190gr MV 2560 for a max Eff Range of 380 yards.

If you are serious about shooting long range, practice practice practice that's the name of the game.  Do your home work.  Get a chrony and work up your loads to get the Max velocity with an accurate load.  Remember your most accurate load may not be the fastest.  Check the ballistic coeficient of the bullet you want to use.  Then use a ballistic program to determine where your bullet should be at X range.  Then go and shoot at that range to verify the bullet is actually there.  You will need a range finder, and you will need to learn how to dial your scope or how to use a scope with a range marked reticle.  I use both types of scopes.  I like the Nikon Ballistic-plex reticle scope, and I also like the Tactical scopes that you dial the range on the turrets.  Be aware if you use a scope that has range markings on it, you have to match the scope with your velocity.  A scope with a return to zero is a must for dialable turrets.  And the manufactor will calibrate the scope for a certain velocity, find out what that is before you buy the scope.  It will be in the paperwork that comes with the scope.

[Fred McIntire]

Don't feel bad when gunsmiths say derogatory things about your Handi.  I've heard them all myself.  They will dispute my effective shots made with Handi's as being impossiable, the gun is too cheap to make those kind of shots.  Yea, tell that dead Wolf I shot at 480 yards, or the Fox I hit at 600 yards.

The Handi is capable of shooting 500 and on out to 700 yards, most people aren't.  I shoot out to 500 yards all the time with my Handi in 30-06 and 25-06.  The 25-06 actually reaches out better than the 30-06.  The only thing I have done to both guns is reduce the trigger pull, put an O-ring under the forearm, put a good scope capable of handling a 700 yard shot or farther, then shooting.  I have worked up loads, that have the energy to reach out and touch things.  165gr Sierria HPBT for the 30-06, and a Nosler 110gr Accubond for the 25-06.  I will not hesitate making a 50 to 500 yard shot with either gun.  Both guns will make 700 yard shots, but I don't like the lack of bullet performance after 500 yards.  Everything has to be just right or I will pass on the 700 yards shots.  Depends on what I am shooting at.  A Fox or a Lynx, I'll take a shot on out past 700 yards, they are delicate animals, and easy to kill.  A wolf is different they are harder to kill, 500 with the 30 cal and 600 with the 25. 

I consider maximum effective range to be where I have a minimum of 2000 fps velocity, and 1000 ft lbs of energy.  I carried a .308 for 14 years.  It was my only high powered rifle.  I shot everything with it, from Antalope to Moose.  I started working on shooting at longer ranges, and thought the .308 was it for long range shooting.  I killed several Mule Deer at 300 yards and on out to 500 yards.  I even shot a Caribou out to 715 yards, finishing it with one shot.  Someone else had already shot it and it was getting away, so I took the long shot to prevent a lost animal.

The Handi in .308 will reach on out there, well past 700 yards accurately if you do your part.  But your maximum effective range is not near that far for hunting most game animals.  Your best bullets are the 125gr MV 3030 fps for a Max Eff Range of 375 yards, and the 190gr MV 2560 for a max Eff Range of 380 yards.

If you are serious about shooting long range, practice practice practice that's the name of the game.  Do your home work.  Get a chrony and work up your loads to get the Max velocity with an accurate load.  Remember your most accurate load may not be the fastest.  Check the ballistic coeficient of the bullet you want to use.  Then use a ballistic program to determine where your bullet should be at X range.  Then go and shoot at that range to verify the bullet is actually there.  You will need a range finder, and you will need to learn how to dial your scope or how to use a scope with a range marked reticle.  I use both types of scopes.  I like the Nikon Ballistic-plex reticle scope, and I also like the Tactical scopes that you dial the range on the turrets.  Be aware if you use a scope that has range markings on it, you have to match the scope with your velocity.  A scope with a return to zero is a must for dialable turrets.  And the manufactor will calibrate the scope for a certain velocity, find out what that is before you buy the scope.  It will be in the paperwork that comes with the scope.

This is the truth !  Last Friday at the range, I watched a guy with a fancy Weatherby bolt action in, I think it was 300 Win Mag, with an $800 Shepherd rifle scope, fail to hit a 1o inch pie plate at 100 yards !  This happened time after time. He finally gave up and went home.

I've been thinking about getting a .308 Handi rifle myself to do some long range shooting. I'd like to put a suppressor on it. I think it would be a lot of fun.

Great advice Sourdough !

Good luck !

[Wagguy80]

I've met a whole lot of 500 yard rifles, but very few 500 yard shooters.  It's all comes down to you.  I've got a baseline Mossberg ATR 30-06 and I guarantee out to 500 yards it's dead.


Most of those accuracy mods have more to do with shot 20 than shot 1.  Free floating is good on a wood stock, if it's synthetic I would bed it instead.  The method used to free float H&R rifles is shakey at best.  It works, but a friend did it too his and the stock can be manipulated into touching the barrel.


However wood can contract, and expand so POI will change based on temperature if it's bedded.


Triggers I try not to go on a rampage with this one.  I've shot MOA with 12lb triggers.  It's more of a shooter flinch modification than a accuracy modification.  Now I don't want a 12lb pull I'd much rather have a 5lb pull.  More important that the pull is smooth, gritty is a no-go. Work on eliminating that flinch.  I know nobody flinches, and yet everybody does.  Did you see the round hit the target?  No?  You flinched.


Like they say keep your eye on the ball.  You've got to look that round into the target.  Try pretending your dry firing.  Forget the thing even goes bang.  It's just going to go click, and your goal is to not let the crosshairs move even the slightest when it does.


End result I'm just about willing to bet that unless the trigger is just gritty, and hard that rifle especially in something like a .243 will shoot 500 out of the box.  Now the groups may suck at 500, but once the scope is dialed in cold.  The first shot will be on at 500.


The test take it to the range, tape a dime to a 100 yard target.  Go back, you've got 1 shot.  Hit the dime without breaking the rim of it.  Most rifles can do that once dialed in cold.  Few rifles will group like that after 3 or 4 shots.
Most game animals aren't going to stand there while you shoot 5+ times at them. lol  So it's that first shot that matters anyway.

[keith44]

im new to this site, and wanted to start by saying i just recently bought a H&R .308 ultra. i got to thinking and i would love to turn this little gun into a long range plinker. ive had even a gunsmith tell me he can do anything i wanted to that rifle and it would never be a 500 yd. gun.
...

First off, Welcome to your new addiction. 


Secondly tell that hack to get bent. 


Look at the muzzle it is a stepped recessed crown, like on bench rest guns.  Check the chamber by measuring the difference between a new case and a fired case.  Standard or very slightly smaller than standard sporting chambers not quite a target quality chamber, but all I have seen are cut true to the bore which is required for accuracy.  Now look at the standing breech and the face of the chamber...they are square to one another when the gun is locked up. You guessed it, another accuarizing trick is to lap the locking lugs and square the bolt face on a bolt action rifle.  To float the forearm install a spacer as described in the FAQ's.  Load yer own and neck size only and you should actually see sub MOA out to around 800 yards with a 308

[Brian P.]

A group is 10 shots.  3 shots into 1" once in awhile does not make a moa rifle.  I've tested 8 bullets and 3 powders on my 223hb and I can reliably/always count on putingt 10 cold shots into 1.2"@ 100.  Some groups are much better but that doesn't make it a moa rifle.  The crown on handi's are roughly cut; about as crude as the rest of the gun is.  You cannot float and handi barrel.  You can try to build a consistent pressure point into the front stock. If I wanted the most accurate gun for the $ I'd get a Howa or Savage.  I wanted a handi because it's handy and having switch barrels makes it more handy. It's one of my most favorite//fun platforms but for shooting tiny groups I use my a tikka continental.

[cwlongshot]

I agree and feel its very doable as you have read... its BEING DONE!!!


Just a word on your smith... its his opinion, like you know what, WE ALL HAVE ONE!

Just lat night I stopped at a gun shop I had not been in in a couple years. I spotted a nice looking SA with stag grips. I picked it up and rotated the cylinder to every chamber. Anyone could see there was a indentation in the cylinder from the pawl. The cylinder rocked back and fourth AND side to side .015-.017. The forcing cone was "shiny like a hiney"as was the under side, rear of the trigger guard, right side, behind trigger and muzzle sides and the back of the grip frame all had no finish. The trigger was very nice and it came with a consecutive SN second gun. (It was a set) I commented it was seen better days and was shot/handled quite a bit.
 The counter "kid" took the gun, looked a bit discusted in my observations. He rotated the cylinder and as he placed it back in the counter, said, "This has not be shot much at all." I chuckled and moved along. 

CW

[blind ear]

A good bullet drop compensating scope and a good range finder sounds like a likely first step as tight as it shoots now. For pistol trigger pull practice I dry fire with a dime balanced on the barrel behind the front site, double action squeeze. I don't know what you could do similar to practice trigger squeeze with a rifle.
-
I have no doubt it can be done, it has already been proven. ear

[bucmeister]

trigger jobs are in the handi faqs here


good info- not fertilizer

Just got my Handi back yesterday from the factory, had sent it in for a trigger job and must say they did a fine job, reduced the creep, pull weight, and grit.  I feel sure this will make a significant difference in how this gun shoots, or at least how I will be able to shoot the gun.  The gun will do what the gun will do, it mostly depends on what the shooter does with the gun when it comes to accuracy.  Have seen several times where the same gun in different hands demonstrated significantly better grouping.   

[cudatruck]

I can tell you from experience it is all the shooter! I can not shoot anywhere near as well as I would like. And I probably never will shoot anything like what's seen on tv or dreamed about by internet trolls. Having spent a few thousand dollars on guns and more on bullets sent down range I am improving. Be smart and try to learn from people actually doing what you want to accomplish. Best thing I've done so far to help my skill is purchase a .22 lr rifle and shoot the livin hell out of it! I am convinced trigger time is the only way to shoot better. When I shot a very expensive weapon and didn't do any better I had to face the truth. I am the problem, not the weapon.

[blind ear]

I can tell you from experience it is all the shooter! I can not shoot anywhere near as well as I would like. And I probably never will shoot anything like what's seen on tv or dreamed about by internet trolls. Having spent a few thousand dollars on guns and more on bullets sent down range I am improving. Be smart and try to learn from people actually doing what you want to accomplish. Best thing I've done so far to help my skill is purchase a .22 lr rifle and shoot the livin hell out of it! I am convinced trigger time is the only way to shoot better. When I shot a very expensive weapon and didn't do any better I had to face the truth. I am the problem, not the weapon.

-
+1, if the gun will do it, shooting that one gun with one load a lot developes muscle memory and familiarity. ear

[Wagguy80]

     If it's the first 3 - 6 shots every time thats not occasional.  True you cannot actually "Float" a handi barrel however that is what most people refer to putting a spacer between the stock, and the barrel.  I try to stay with terms that are commonly used otherwise you wind up being the guy who thinks cracking on people for putting "clips" in their handguns saying "It's not a clip, it's a magazine!" 



    The point not to be derailed is it's more about the shooter than the rifle.  I have a half dozen rifles that are wood stocked, don't have bedded or free floating barrels, do not have match grade triggers, or optics.  They all have one thing in common they will all put 3 shots either in 1" or 1.5" at 100 yards.  Which translates into they would all take game at 500 yards.  Especially if I were to mount a nice 3x9 scope on them.  The only rifle I have that won't is a M-44 but even still if I put a scope on it to compensate for those short crude sights, even with the bayonet permanently attached it would take game at 500 yards.


     Most modern rifles will.  Heck if I put a scope on it I'll bet my CVA Bobcat would also.  He just wants a 500 yard plinker. Unless he got a lemon that should be easily achieved.

[bucmeister]

Another point on accuracy in 500 yd shooting is the wind effect.  Obviously the gun/ammo combo is the first issue, then the gun control of the trigger puller, after that we have to get into a discussion of the effects various amounts and combinations of head, tail, and cross winds on the projectile and the ability of the trigger puller to interpret and adjust for the said winds. 

[OldSchoolRanger]

im new to this site, and wanted to start by saying i just recently bought a H&R .308 ultra. i got to thinking and i would love to turn this little gun into a long range plinker. ive had even a gunsmith tell me he can do anything i wanted to that rifle and it would never be a 500 yd. gun. for some reason, i DISAGREE. im looking into getting the trigger lightened down to 3.5 pds, a 4-12x40 nikon prostaff scope, and maybe sanding down the stock to make it free floated like ive seen some do on here. and also i heard h&r makes a 26 in. barrel for these? im at 22 right now and would consider getting one if they make them? can anyone tell me what they think of this? am i crazy or can it be done? any input would be appreciated.

i'd find another gunsmith to visit

Save your self a trip to that gunsmith.  That particular gunsmith is looking to make lots of money off of you.  He can't justify charging you all that big $$$ for the work he would do on a Handi, which you can actually do yourself. 

[tturner53]

Another point on accuracy in 500 yd shooting is the wind effect.  Obviously the gun/ammo combo is the first issue, then the gun control of the trigger puller, after that we have to get into a discussion of the effects various amounts and combinations of head, tail, and cross winds on the projectile and the ability of the trigger puller to interpret and adjust for the said winds."--  BINGO! Shooting long range is a skill you develop thru practice and training. The gun is a launch pad. 1" at 100 does not mean 5" at 500. Everything changes. Use a good bullet made for the job. I'd wring out the barrel I had before I bought a 26". A heavy 20" is likely to shoot smaller groups than a longer barrel. Smaller oscillations. Have fun with your new toy!