Turning a Handi into a 500 yd. Rifle??

[Wagguy80]

Correct in the end it all boils down to trigger time.  You can calculate how much a round should drift all day long.  It for some reason unless your a NASA scientist is never spot on.  You've got to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.


My ammo solution is I find a brand that I like that groups well, and I shoot it year after year with no change.  Familiarity is priceless in the field.

[Sourdough]

Don't rush out and get a 3-9X40 scope, not if you plan on shooting beyond 300 yards.  The reticle is too heavy, and covers too much of the target at longer distances.  Also stay away from those little circles, and post reticles as well.  Get a scope with a fine reticle, the number of lines are not important as long as they are fine lines.  People will tell you that you can not see those lines to make a fast shot, so what.  You are not making fast shots at long distances.   Plus with practice you will still be able to pick up those lines fast at close ranges.

In most cases the game does not know you are anywhere around.  They are calmly feeding and moving very little.  You have all the time in the world so don't rush it.  If you do you will miss.  Do everything you do on the bench, just like you do on the bench.  Consistancy that is the critical most important thing you can do.  You need to have good clear glass to see any grass or branches between you and your target.  I've missed many a Deer because of a small twig.

Each cartridge has it's own advantages and disadvantages, those have to be taken into consideration when shooting at longer ranges.  A cartridge that shoots great at 100 yards and has good killing ability, may not work out at 400 yards.  Yet an old cartridge that people laugh at for shooting beyond 100 yards can be very efficient at killing game at 800 yards.  Case in point the old 45-70.  400gr Jacketed bullet, Muzzle velocity 1900 fps, energy 3200 ft pounds.  800 yards 983 fps with 858 ft pounds of energy.  Trajectory like a rainbow, and bullet speed so slow you think it will never get there.  But when it hits a deer at 800 yards a big hole in and a big hole out.  The Deer usually stays put, if it does run it don't go far.  Make the same shot with a .243, you will probably lose that Deer.  Velocity is a lot higher, but the energy just is not there.  So learn the limitations of your cartridge.

For extreme long range I shoot a .338/378 Weatherby with a 225gr Nosler Accubond traveling at 3210fps.  At 1000 yards I still have 2174 fps left and 2361 ft pounds of energy.  Your .308 shooting a 165gr bullet at 2910 fps muzzle velocity will have 3102 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle.  At 300 yards your velocity will be 2232 fps and energy will be down to 1825 ft pounds.  At 700 yards you will be down to 1463 fps and 784 ft pounds of energy.  So again know the limitations of your cartridge.

Yes the Handi will hit them out to 700 yards, but will the cartridge do the job of killing the target at that range.

[petemi]

I settle on a load and bullet the rifle likes and use it for everything within that caliber's capability.  Years ago, I settled on a 168 gr. Nosler boat tail for the .308, and I use it for everything from chipmunks to deer.  I don't hop around from load to load.  Each of my rifles is sighted in at the maximum effective range of it's own dedicated load.

When I shot the quarter covered group with the .243 at 300 yards, I had taped six clay birds to a cardboard box.  I shot 3 shots at each bird.  The first bird was blown off the target with the first shot.  The other 5 stayed pretty much intact being held by the tape.  When I checked the target, I had five groups of three.  The largest being 2.5 inches.  The single first shot hit where the center of the bird had been.  All shots were sub-MOA.  The shooting was done shortly after dawn with zero wind and the rising sun on the target.  I allowed some time between shots, but when I finished, the barrel was fairly hot.  I have to admit, I was shooting over my head and Brian56 had worked on this rifle.  Thank you again, Brian.

As has been said, if your rifle is shooting MOA or sub-MOA at 100 yards, you already have a 500 yard rifle.  MOA is MOA.

Pete

[redleg11b]

My .223 Handi with 3-9 Burris FF2 will consistently hit a full scale turkey gong at 500 yards.  I've never shot it for groups and the gong has no paint on it to check if it is hitting in the same area, but it will do it.  500 yards is not as difficult as some people think.  The most difficult part of getting the small groups on paper and/or confidence to use it on game at that distance is the ability to read the wind as others have stated.  I'd feel plenty comfortable using my .223 out to 300 on groundhogs.  The Remmy in my avatar photo would do 1.5" groups at 300 yards and took several groundhogs past 400 yards.  One day I may shoot for groups past 100 yards with the Handi.  For now 1.25 MOA, a bdc reticle that has been confirmed accurate with the chosen load to 300 yards using clay pigeons, and a steady rest are good enough for me.  I would definately invest in a quality scope that goes up to a minimum of 12x-16x power, however, if you plan on concentrating on 300-500 yd shooting. 

[evan1395]

Don't feel bad when gunsmiths say derogatory things about your Handi.  I've heard them all myself.  They will dispute my effective shots made with Handi's as being impossiable, the gun is too cheap to make those kind of shots.  Yea, tell that dead Wolf I shot at 480 yards, or the Fox I hit at 600 yards.

The Handi is capable of shooting 500 and on out to 700 yards, most people aren't.  I shoot out to 500 yards all the time with my Handi in 30-06 and 25-06.  The 25-06 actually reaches out better than the 30-06.  The only thing I have done to both guns is reduce the trigger pull, put an O-ring under the forearm, put a good scope capable of handling a 700 yard shot or farther, then shooting.  I have worked up loads, that have the energy to reach out and touch things.  165gr Sierria HPBT for the 30-06, and a Nosler 110gr Accubond for the 25-06.  I will not hesitate making a 50 to 500 yard shot with either gun.  Both guns will make 700 yard shots, but I don't like the lack of bullet performance after 500 yards.  Everything has to be just right or I will pass on the 700 yards shots.  Depends on what I am shooting at.  A Fox or a Lynx, I'll take a shot on out past 700 yards, they are delicate animals, and easy to kill.  A wolf is different they are harder to kill, 500 with the 30 cal and 600 with the 25. 

I consider maximum effective range to be where I have a minimum of 2000 fps velocity, and 1000 ft lbs of energy.  I carried a .308 for 14 years.  It was my only high powered rifle.  I shot everything with it, from Antalope to Moose.  I started working on shooting at longer ranges, and thought the .308 was it for long range shooting.  I killed several Mule Deer at 300 yards and on out to 500 yards.  I even shot a Caribou out to 715 yards, finishing it with one shot.  Someone else had already shot it and it was getting away, so I took the long shot to prevent a lost animal.

The Handi in .308 will reach on out there, well past 700 yards accurately if you do your part.  But your maximum effective range is not near that far for hunting most game animals.  Your best bullets are the 125gr MV 3030 fps for a Max Eff Range of 375 yards, and the 190gr MV 2560 for a max Eff Range of 380 yards.

If you are serious about shooting long range, practice practice practice that's the name of the game.  Do your home work.  Get a chrony and work up your loads to get the Max velocity with an accurate load.  Remember your most accurate load may not be the fastest.  Check the ballistic coeficient of the bullet you want to use.  Then use a ballistic program to determine where your bullet should be at X range.  Then go and shoot at that range to verify the bullet is actually there.  You will need a range finder, and you will need to learn how to dial your scope or how to use a scope with a range marked reticle.  I use both types of scopes.  I like the Nikon Ballistic-plex reticle scope, and I also like the Tactical scopes that you dial the range on the turrets.  Be aware if you use a scope that has range markings on it, you have to match the scope with your velocity.  A scope with a return to zero is a must for dialable turrets.  And the manufactor will calibrate the scope for a certain velocity, find out what that is before you buy the scope.  It will be in the paperwork that comes with the scope.

Killing a wolf at 480 yards with a Handi...my hat is off to you man !
Think my handi chambered in .45-70 is capable of making a 500 yard shot?

[Brian P.]

Yeah, it's getting pretty thick pretty quick around here.   

[cwlongshot]

Yeah, it's getting pretty thick pretty quick around here.   

Brian,

You need to spend a little more time around here before passing judgment... 

I'll tell you the one thing I do know about hitting at these extream ranges, its more the person behind the trigger than it is the rifle... 

I wish I had the oppertunities Roger does with hunting at these ranges, maybe one day I'll see the state he calls home.

CW

[Ranger99]

a 45/70 rifle can for sure make long-distance
shots just like a lot of "obsolete" calibers
can. look at some of those 19th century
photographs or tintypes of those piles of
buffalo carcasses. what did they take those with?


now can i or the next guy make those shots?
maybe . . .only with practice at 500 yards or
whatever yardage. personally , i don't try
to do that because i don't have a shot opportunity
of that long of a range.
but it can be done.

[blind ear]

Don't rush out and get a 3-9X40 scope, not if you plan on shooting beyond 300 yards.  The reticle is too heavy, and covers too much of the target at longer distances.  Also stay away from those little circles, and post reticles as well.  Get a scope with a fine reticle, the number of lines are not important as long as they are fine lines.  People will tell you that you can not see those lines to make a fast shot, so what.  You are not making fast shots at long distances.   Plus with practice you will still be able to pick up those lines fast at close ranges.

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Here I respectfully disagree. With a course recticle it is easier to see the cross hairs in low light. You simply use the intersection corner/point of the horizontal and vertical lines, the point of the corner. I use the corner/point of the top left quadrant, (due to the normal right drift at long ranges) and it just feels more comfortable being a right handed shooter. If you use the point of the quadrant of light where the hairs cross you can always see at least 1/4 of the target no matter how small or distant. The point is an infinitely small aiming point and you can easily see the coarse cross hairs.
-
The normal right drift is due to bullet pitch and yaw plus gravitational pull/centrifugal forces rt bullet spin.
At 500 yards the width of a course cross hair can be 5 moa. The corner point of the quadrant of light elimiantes this factor.
-
As Sourdough said, at those distances the game usually doesn't know that you are there, often even after the shot. If you see your impact point and the game doesn't spook you get to practice some "Arkansas windage". ear

[sidewinder319]

I live in Big Game country lots of rifles of all kind. I have never seen one of these long range single shots.  Are they wining Long Range Rifle  Bench Matches?

[Ranger99]

you've never seen or heard of say,
a black powder cartridge silhouette
match?  where they shoot black powder guns at
500 meters?
or a pistol silhouette match ?


probably some on youtube

[blind ear]

I live in Big Game country lots of rifles of all kind. I have never seen one of these long range single shots.  Are they wining Long Range Rifle  Bench Matches?

-
The folks that shoot handies don't run around bragging they just stay quiet and shoot and let people cringe at the results. Gendoc likes to shoot for pink slips, errr, the gun. ear

[sidewinder319]

That is strange. Everyone who owns one of these rifles thinks the same way?  Most gun owners are not followers they tend to be independent. Rifle shooters like to prove there rifles on a field of fire.

[Ranger99]

kinda like my hunting.
most folks around me want a big
high scoring buck so they can brag
about the antlers and post it on
farcebook and bloobtube.
i could care less about bragging rights.
i like fish and game meat in the
freezer and i get self satisfaction
knowing how up close it was when
i took it and what a clean humane
harvest i made.


of course, everyone is different.

[sidewinder319]

Many who posted on this subject are posting groups . The art of the rifle is as old as our country. I really don't know why bragging and deer hunting create a negative about accurate rifle shooting.
There is nothing wrong with an American Shooter proving his merit in a match. We have a tradition of being able to win with the rifles of our choice.

[blind ear]

That is strange. Everyone who owns one of these rifles thinks the same way?  Most gun owners are not followers they tend to be independent. Rifle shooters like to prove there rifles on a field of fire.

-
The (in the past) low dollar puchace price of the gun is the first indecator of the thought process of the handi bunch. A lot of people scoff at the low dollar price and just won't be embarassed by owning such a "cheap" gun. That is the first indicator and the same process continues for both ends of the spectrum. The handi shooters prove it to themselves with a gun that they tuned. ear

[Wagguy80]

I've never seen a factory rifle at any long range bench match.  Usually they look like some kind of space gun specially designed for that shooter, and totally unusable in the field.


I have shot a number of military bolt action rifle matches.  I know what I can do and I've never met a rifle that can match me.  Unfortunately I've never had the oppertunity to shoot at beyond 600 yards.

[keith44]

I live in Big Game country lots of rifles of all kind. I have never seen one of these long range single shots.  Are they wining Long Range Rifle  Bench Matches?

That is strange. Everyone who owns one of these rifles thinks the same way?  Most gun owners are not followers they tend to be independent. Rifle shooters like to prove there rifles on a field of fire.

Many who posted on this subject are posting groups . The art of the rifle is as old as our country. I really don't know why bragging and deer hunting create a negative about accurate rifle shooting.
There is nothing wrong with an American Shooter proving his merit in a match. We have a tradition of being able to win with the rifles of our choice.

I hope my posts are not interpreted to lead anyone to believe these are capable of benchrest accuracy everytime.  They are not.  There are many many of them that are MOA or 1/2 MOA capable with ammo they like, but these Handi's are designed and built for field or hunting accuracy.  500 yards into an 8 inch vitals kill zone.  Yup they'll do it more times than not.  1,000 yards into a 3 inch group? Nope not the best platform for that game.

[Wagguy80]

That was my original point about these rifles, and many others.  People focus too much on the rifle, and not enough on the shooting. 



Now if the thread was "I want to turn a Handi into a 500 yard match rifle" I would say your crazy.  The thread is he wants a 500 yard plinker, and just about any modern production rifle can do that including the handi.

[mechanic]

I've seen a lot of long range shots made with improbable rifle selections.  The people who use those super dooper bench rifles do so because they want every edge, and rightly so.  Same reason they weigh and measure every piece of brass and every bullet and set up the dies with micrometer accuracy.  Those same shooters could take a decent shooting rifle like the Handi and outshoot many if not most of us here.  That has no bearing on what is.  I have no doubt that Rog. can kill a wolf at the distances mentioned, and do it with a Handi.  That is his life, it is what he does.  Can I do it?  Not without a lot of practice and improvement.  But my rifle can. The fact that I can shoot sub MOA at 100 yds. tells me that.
 
Ben

[sidewinder319]

I am not talking about Space Guns what?  We are talking about Long Range Hunting Rifle matches. You know what that is? Remington 700, Ruger 77, Winchester Mdl 70. sporterized Springfields.  Stock hunting rigs linited to 6X power scopes. Mention a match and some people who know nothing about accurate shooting go crazy. 
Shooting 500 yd targets is OK they don't suffer from gut shots. I have been a Western Guide and life long hunter. Shooting at big game at 500 yds. is at best the habit of a poor hunter. Some one remarks that his 8 inch groups are OK to kill game animals at 500 yds. That kind of shooting can just as easy put one in the guts.  Learn to stalk your game as well as learning to shoot.

[Wagguy80]

    Here's a link to a nice little video on what I like to call space guns.  This one is actually on the mild side some are much more wild than this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=fRLCh0Re_LA&feature=endscreen


   Nobody said anything about "Long range hunting rifle matches" they said "Long range bench rifle matches".  Two completely different things. And still at long range hunting rifle matches those rifles are as tuned as they can be within the rules.


    This thread isn't even about trying to take game at 500 yards, or bench competition for that matter.  The guy wanted to know what everyone thought about turning a handi in a 500 yard plinker.


     

[gcrank1]

With 'enough' scope you can sometimes watch 22LR bullets going 200yd.+ arch and drift into a target with even a fair 10mph wind. Its a funny looking complex curve to watch. You want a range where the sun is behind you. I shot in a match with a 20X and had to dial in correction of about two feet for a stiff quartering wind from the right and had to wait conditions. I learned a lot (and tied for win, too).
The other thing at distance is mirage.....you'll shoot over 'cause the boiling effect visually makes the target appear higher.
Ive learned more from shooting 22LR than anything, but honestly, Ive shot more 22, so.......(gotta love 'em). It has all transferred over to other calibers as Ive played with them in different games. Even a good quality air rifle can be invaluable for someone who gets limited range time (and one that will shoot one hole at 50 feet is a revelation). 'Long Range' air rifle games in a yard can be done easily; a 2" tall target at 42 feet is the equiv. of a 6' target at 500ish yds. visually. You wont get the true wind/mirage effects but still learn a lot

[blind ear]

With 'enough' scope you can sometimes watch 22LR bullets going 200yd.+ arch and drift into a target with even a fair 10mph wind. Its a funny looking complex curve to watch. You want a range where the sun is behind you. I shot in a match with a 20X and had to dial in correction of about two feet for a stiff quartering wind from the right and had to wait conditions. I learned a lot (and tied for win, too).
The other thing at distance is mirage.....you'll shoot over 'cause the boiling effect visually makes the target appear higher.
Ive learned more from shooting 22LR than anything, but honestly, Ive shot more 22, so.......(gotta love 'em). It has all transferred over to other calibers as Ive played with them in different games. Even a good quality air rifle can be invaluable for someone who gets limited range time (and one that will shoot one hole at 50 feet is a revelation). 'Long Range' air rifle games in a yard can be done easily; a 2" tall target at 42 feet is the equiv. of a 6' target at 500ish yds. visually. You wont get the true wind/mirage effects but still learn a lot

-
For a real good learning experience take the back sight off that "long range" air rifle.  Grip and body contact become your sights (muscle memory).   ear

[sidewinder319]

Yes Wagguy I had to spell out for you. Who the Hell would expect a small single shot rifle to be used in a Heavy Bench Rifle Match?  I thought we were rifleman not urban commandos. And you had better the post as well most of this is about killing game even at 700 yds.

[Wagguy80]

You have serious comprehension issues.  Your the only person who brought up heavy bench rifle matches, then said "We're not talking about that we're talking about hunting rifle matches!" blah blah blah.

[quickdtoo]