jacketed bullet's vs lead

[theratdog]

why in the heck lead cast bullets so much more money than jacketed in most cases clue me in guy's.

[ironglow]

why in the heck lead cast bullets so much more money than jacketed in most cases clue me in guy's.

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  I've been wondering that myself...

[Land_Owner]

I don't know about that.  I cast my own lead for all of my handguns and for a few of my lower velocity rifles.  In comparison to Manufactured jacketed rounds, my whole handgun round costs ~$0.04 each and the AVERAGE Manufactured jacketed bullet round costs ~$0.25 each. 

Break down the component costs of a round and the brass and bullet are the most expensive parts.  Reuse of the case makes that cost negligible over the double dozen or more rounds made with that case.

I cast my own bullets (= projectiles) with practically zero cost in that production except time, a little propane, moulds, and some casting equipment.  Wheel weights are either free or minimal cost (~$20.00 per 100#'s or less) and making 250 grain 45 Colt (say) bullets one can make ~2000 bullets (assuming ~70% yield from W/W) at a cost of $0.01 each (if $20.00 was paid for the bucket of W/W's).  Free if the bucket of weights was free.  The cost of propane is negligible over 25,000 bullets made per tank.  The cost of the mould and other casting equipment to make the bullets is negligible over the 100-thousand bullets made.

[twoshooter]

I know what you are talking about. I was looking last night at 44 cal bullets, the 240 gr jacketed HP's were 24.99/10 0n sale, the lead cast were 19.99/ 100. I was shocked at that frankly. Historically I expected lead to run at about 40% of factory bullet cost. Like Land Owner, my cost are almost negligible due to 40 years of collecting scrap lead from different sources and molds picked up randomly. I can recycle all of my target shooting lead also, so it is not lost, and as I shoot moderate to light loads, brass often lasts for 20+ loadings, some much longer. 
     One of the few alarmist threats I take seriously is the success of the environmental crazies in making lead out as so dangerous. It did not arrive from outer space, it is in the ground to start with. I know, I live in the worlds greatest supplier of lead ore. I wonder if EPA regs have anything to do with it? Otherwise, I can't say, but the cost IS up considerably.

[Blackhawker]

The original poster makes it sound like cast bullets cost MORE than jacketed.  NO, that's not the case, but the cost of cast is slowly getting closer to the cost of jacketed bullets by a margin.  One still pays less for hard cast bullets than say copper plated bullets.  There is still quite a margin of savings by shooting cast bullets.

Here is what I think the problems is:

LOTS of people moved to shooting cast bullets because the cost of jacketed bullets went so high AND at one time (about 10 yrs ago) it was hard to find primers and jacketed bullets on the shelves of nearly all supply stores which left many shooters no other choice but to try cast bullets.  YES, the cost of raw materials has gone up, but why??  I think it's because the demand for cast bullets has gone up and there are a lot more private casters and many more other sources of cast bullets than there were say 10 or 15 yrs ago.  I don't think there is a reason in the world that the cost of the raws needed to go up as they have other than one reason; the supplier being able to make more $$$$. 

No, this isn't fact...just my thoughts and suspicions.

[Ranch13]

Cast bullets cost what they do because of the price of the alloy. Lead , tin and antimony are all bringing big money. Just the same way copper is and the reason jacketed bullets went up.Plus you have to keep in mind the folks casting,sizing, lubing and packaging those bullets for you to buy aren't doing it just because they're good folks, they have bills to pay as well.
If you cast your own, the price goes down somewhat, if you forget about the cost of the equipment to set up to cast, and figure your time doing the casting as just something to do other than sit on the couch and grumble... If you can scrounge lead to cast with that's great , but if you need to buy tin to stiffen the alloy,,,, it's been as high as 18$ a lb.....Now even scrap lead at the junk yard is likely going to cost a dollar a pound or more. Tire shops used to give away wheelweights, now the might sell you some, they found they could sell those to the scrap yards and recoup a bit of cash.
 

[D Fischer]

I only shoot cast in my centerfire handguns and in one 30-06. I also cast my own and have a large supply of lead ingots. The cost that get's me is the cost of handgun loads with other than solid bullets in them. that alone would get me to reloading. I do have a 9mm that I used to reload for but haven't in years. Then again, I haven't shot the thing in years either! I looked at some defence loads for it last year or so and they were something like $30 for a box of 15 or 20 rds? You gotta be kidding!

Hey Land_owner, where are you finding wheel weight's for $20 a 100#? There all but dried up around here.

[Land_Owner]

Hey Land_owner, where are you finding wheel weight's for $20 a 100#? There all but dried up around here.

SSsssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!  I'm not telling...

If you cast your own, the price goes down somewhat, if you forget about the cost of the equipment to set up to cast, and figure your time doing the casting as just something to do other than sit on the couch and grumble...

I think we differ (by way of grumbling while sitting on the couch) on this.  I think I can ammortize my rifles, handguns, and all casting equipment over the 100-thousand or so shots of each caliber I mould such that their original cost doesn't spike the stated ~$0.04 each round.

For Example:  A $650.00 revolver fired (say) 100,000 times (OK for Modern guns) with rounds that I make costs me: 

$650.00/100,000 rounds = $0.0065 per round [LESS THAN a penny ==> NEGLIGIBLE]

If the casting equipment cost me IN TOTAL $500 (and I would be surprised by that!) and that equipment is distributed over EVERY caliber I shoot...it should be obvious that within 100,000 rounds the EQUIPMENT and GUNS add NEXT TO NOTHING to the cost per round.  Maybe a penny or two.  I am still WAY AHEAD rolling my own over Factory rounds and I get to "tune" my loads to my barrels and conditions.

OK, ask me:  Do I shoot 100,000 rounds per caliber I roll?  No.  I would be one hellofva shooter and would spend my life at the Range and never at WORK or the casting pot.  So REALISTICALLY, the dollar amounts I am quoting of $0.04 per round is assuming negligible costs for the equipment, which, as shown, is real.

[Ranch13]

If all a person ever bought was a 50$ lee pot, and a 20$ lee mould, then yeh the cost don't add up to much.
 You mentioned 500$ worth of equipment, I've got almost that much in nose pour adjustable moulds for just one rifle...
Most of the casting I do nets 14-16 bullets per pound of alloy.
So there are alot of variables, but it is still cheaper to cast your own than to buy, unless you just don't shoot much,then a box of 500 commercial cast may make a bit more sense than setting up to cast, and going thru mould after mould finding "the bullet".
Back to the OP's question, last I checked just 1 small Magma caster without the mouldblocks was several thousand dollars, so that equipment cost is going to be figured into the cost of the production.

[ironglow]

I don't question when one molds their own..almost have to save once you have the equipment.  But it does seem that commercial bullets would be a bit further apart..perhaps the lead bullets are more labor intensive..but they do seem very close in price.
  http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1988218433/cast-performance-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-180-grain-lead-wide-flat-nose-gas-check
  http://www.midwayusa.com/product/185446/sierra-tournamentmaster-bullets-38-caliber-357-diameter-180-grain-full-profile-jacket-box-of-100
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/382348/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-box-of-300
   http://www.midwayusa.com/product/739654/hornady-xtp-bullets-38-caliber-357-diameter-125-grain-jacketed-flat-nose-box-of-100
    ...But maybe I'm missing something..

[tacklebury]

I like buying my cast for plinking loads.  Can get 1000 for $85 of the ones I like and use em in my .45 colt and .45 acp loads.  That's pretty cheap shooting w/ 6.5 gr. Unique.    Costs me 8.5 cents per bullet, 2.5 cents of powder and 4 cents per primer for a total of 15 cents a shot. 
 
http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=dardas&Product_Code=45200RNFPBB1000&Category_Code=45RNFP
 

 

[theratdog]

i get lead wheel weights for 70 cents a pound. i like to cast my own bullets but for high velocity loads i use jacketed bullets .it takes time to cast and lube .but i wanted  some 38 cal hollow points cost around 18 bucks+ tax . a hundred cast were 24 plus shipping some metal jacket bullets are twice that much and you get 50 bullets i only buy 30 -22- and 44mag bullets but the different manufactures think they are special. every thing is going up i think there is going to be a big change after the election.thanks for your reply's.

[ironglow]

 I don't cast bullets yet, so I have a couple questions you casters can answer for me.  Keep in mind, the only thing I would be casting for would be my .44 mag rifle.
 1) Do cast bullets mushroom adequately or do they just rely on a large bore bullet?
 
 2) Someone told me that wheel weights are too hard..right or wrong.  I'm assuming they were wrong since some of you guys are using wheel weights.
 
 3) Are the jacketed, saboted bullets  for muzzle loaders worth the huge difference in price?

[Ranch13]

I don't cast bullets yet, so I have a couple questions you casters can answer for me.  Keep in mind, the only thing I would be casting for would be my .44 mag rifle.
 1) Do cast bullets mushroom adequately or do they just rely on a large bore bullet?
 Hardness of the alloy will determine how much mushroom you get. With the Keith type bullets (swc) thee meplat and the big hole it tears thru flesh will be the biggest factor, especially with low velocity big bore rounds
 2) Someone told me that wheel weights are too hard..right or wrong.  I'm assuming they were wrong since some of you guys are using wheel weights.
 My opion is that wheel weights are about right for most applications except for round balls in muzzle loaders, there pure lead is to be preferred altho not completely necessary
 3) Are the jacketed, saboted bullets  for muzzle loaders worth the huge difference in price?

[ironglow]

  Thanks Ranch..  that covers a lot!  Now for whether the very expensive sabots for a muzzleloader..are they worth every extra penny?

[D Fischer]

I wouldn't want to run pure lead. My understanding is at some velocity it will lead your barrel pretty bad. Had that happen with a 41 mag before I started casting. You don't ever want to lead a barrel!

[Ranch13]

Ironglow can't help you with the muzzleloader sabots, never messed with them. Tossed a gawdawful lot of round balls and miniballs, and lee real bullets down range but never messed with a muzzleloader sabot.. Except in the late 70's Butler creek was offering a double ended sabot thing that held a round ball , things didn's shoot for sour owl doo, especially when put up against a pillow tic  patched ball.
D Fischere you can run pure lead without excessive leading but bullet fit and a quality lube are required. There are lots of bpcr folks run pure lead bullets with not much problem.

[twoshooter]

1. With most cast bullets you depend on the bullet shape and diameter, not on expansion, that is one reason you see a lot of big bore casting but not small stuff.

2. Wheel weights are wonderful stuff for two reasons: One, in addition to being ubiquitous and relatively cheap, they pour well and when air cooled are usually usable if well lubed up to about 1400 fps. Two- since they contain traces of arsenic they can be heat treated, both by quenching- dumping  the mold straight into cold water (which I do often), and by tempering  which is done by baking them at high temp (about 475)  for 30 to 45 minutes and then dumping in cold water. These bullets can be used (quenching) up to 1800 fps, and the tempering over 2000fps, again, IF they are well lubed. Most of my (rifle) loads fall between 1300 & 1600 fps, the handguns are from 800 to 1000 fps.

3. The old traditional MZL were OK with soft stuff. The new inline- look at the loading specs, you are talking 444 FACTORY ballistics from a MZL. - 2200 fps with a 240 gr 44 cal bullet. That takes protection. You had better stick with sabots and factory bullets for that.

        That is one of the main reasons I got into casting, and I have mostly single shot weapons. A 44/45/50 caliber projectile in the 300 to 500 gr range traveling at 1400 to 1600 fps will effectively take any game outside of Africa, and most of it there

       My advice to you is to get you a good mold for the 44 and a bucket of WW's and you will be set for everything but SD loads (too much penetration) I have what I think are 2 of the best- a 429421 Lyman flat base Keith mold SWC- 245 gr, and the Lee 310 gr FNGC. With my alloy it comes out at 304 gr average and I do not need the GC. They have put away a lot of deer and lesser game as well.

[res45]

I wouldn't want to run pure lead. My understanding is at some velocity it will lead your barrel pretty bad. Had that happen with a 41 mag before I started casting. You don't ever want to lead a barrel!

In general if you keep the velocity at 1K fps or less and the bullet fits the cylinder throat in handguns or chamber throat in rifles using pure lead bullets want be and issues.  Taking into consideration that the bullet fits properly and is lubed properly to begin with the problem arises with pure lead or low BHN alloy bullet when both high velocity & pressure are both present in a given load that's higher than the strength/BHN of the bullet can withstand. 

If you want to shoot soft lead bullets say for expansion purposes at magnum velocity then the use of a gas check come into play.   Your experience  with the 41 Mag. is the same thing that almost killed the 357 Mag. the first factory loadings were loaded with pure lead 38 cal bullet and they leaded the bore very badly.

[LaOtto222]

Premium Cast bullets are just as expensive if not more than jacketed bullets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/953089/oregon-trail-trueshot-cast-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-310-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

These are $37.58/100 + shipping   $.375 each

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1988713863/cast-performance-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-300-grain-lead-wide-flat-nose-gas-check

These are $40.49/100 + shipping $.405 each

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511437/sierra-sports-master-bullets-44-caliber-429-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-50

These are $28.00/100 + shipping

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/284212/hornady-xtp-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

These are $29.00/100 + shipping regular price $ 27.34 sale price

All are 300 or 310 grain 44 Mag bullets, the cheaper two are jacketed and the more expensive two are cast with a gas check. I would say that cast is considerably more than jacketed. Why? Just guessing, but I would say the cast has a lot more hand operations involved driving up the cost, time for the lead to cool and be dumped before the next one is cast. Meanwhile the Jacketed are produced on high speed machines with little or no handling.

Good Shooting and Good Luck

[tacklebury]

I'd would not pay for Oregon trail or Cast Performance personally, as there are many other casters out there for less, even with gas checks:
http://westernbullet.com/rc44gr.html
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/44_Mag_U99O.html
Just a couple.  Both have 300 gr. Gas checked for between $25 and $31 per 100.

[ironglow]

  Thanks Guys;
  Being a non-caster as of yet, I have received a brief but worthwhile education on the subject..

[Blackhawker]

I'd advise you to save yourself paying for postage and just throw your money in the trash right off rather than ordering from Western.  I have a friend that ordered over $100 of bullets nearly a year ago and never saw his order.  I nearly lost two orders with Western.  I finally had to call my credit card company on them and then suddenly I had my order within a few days.
Western bullets are fair priced and good quality but you take chances when ordering from them. 

I'd would not pay for Oregon trail or Cast Performance personally, as there are many other casters out there for less, even with gas checks:
http://westernbullet.com/rc44gr.html
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/44_Mag_U99O.html
Just a couple.  Both have 300 gr. Gas checked for between $25 and $31 per 100.

[Ranch13]

Commercially cast bullets I like to order the Missouri bullets from Grafs.
 Big Sky bullets in Miles City Mt also sell excellent bullets at reasonable prices.
Cheycast also sells good quality bullets at a decent price.
 The best of the best in semi custom bullets come from Dry Creek bullet works, Mr. Halstead hand casts those and doesn't charge an arm and a leg , and the quality is second to none.
 

[LaOtto222]

I'd would not pay for Oregon trail or Cast Performance personally, as there are many other casters out there for less, even with gas checks:
http://westernbullet.com/rc44gr.html
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/44_Mag_U99O.html
Just a couple.  Both have 300 gr. Gas checked for between $25 and $31 per 100.

Can you get them in larger than standard diameters? Do not get me wrong, cast have their place and it is your choice to pay what you want. After all, the companies that charge $.40/each must be selling some bullets or they would soon be out of business.

The bullets you pointed out are not cheaper than jacketed bullets, basically the same price. That is a problem to me. Why shoot a fast cast, unless you want to push a bullet through a large bodied animal? If that is your goal, then 40 or 50 cents a bullet is in line, but they are more, much more than jacketed bullets. If you want to shoot "plinking" loads or lower velocity hunting bullets, you can find, relatively, cheap cast. If you push these just a little too fast, they will lead your barrel. I do not know about the rest of you, but cleaning lead out of a barrel is not very much fun for me. I do shoot some cheap cast bullets, but I rarely push them above 1000 fps. As time has past, I have moved away from the cheap cast and try to find jacketed bullets for all of my shooting. I can load them down to 1000 fps or up to 4000 fps, depending on application. If you cast your own bullets, then great, I get it. I looked into casting my own, but I do not have a free or cheap source of lead. If I had to buy the equipment, then buy the alloy, throw in the dangers of bullet casting, I just could not justify casting. If you cast your own, then like I said, I get it. I reload and I get a lot enjoyment out of it. It would be hard for some to justify, the expense of rolling your own. As has been said many times, what you do is your business, for me I just do not get paying the same or more for a cast bullet than a jacketed bullet, unless you have a special purpose for it. If I was going to shoot dangerous game with a straight walled case, then a heavy, large diameter, gas checked cast bullet might be the best choice. Other than that I am going to shoot jacketed bullets. I just ordered 1400 jacketed blems that do not cost much more than even cheap cast bullets. For me 1400 bullets is a lot. I ordered 900 .357 and 500 .430 bullets. I do not shoot that much large caliber rounds. I shoot .224 much, much more because .224 is my favorite size bore so I have many rifles that shoot them. They are relatively cheap to shoot too, even with jacketed bullets.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[sc1911cwp]

I find the price of my reloads to equal yours.

I like buying my cast for plinking loads.  Can get 1000 for $85 of the ones I like and use em in my .45 colt and .45 acp loads.  That's pretty cheap shooting w/ 6.5 gr. Unique.    Costs me 8.5 cents per bullet, 2.5 cents of powder and 4 cents per primer for a total of 15 cents a shot. 
 
http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=dardas&Product_Code=45200RNFPBB1000&Category_Code=45RNFP