444 Marlin question

[ncloader88]

Just acquired a 444 barrel from this forum.  Those of you who are reloading this cartridge- what dies would work best to shoot both jacketed an cast (pb and gc) bullets?  What molds do you use if you are casting your own?  I have heard that it's pretty easy to download this round to meet 44mag performance, what is your method of doing this?  Don't have the barrel yet, but I'm eager to get started!

[cwlongshot]

The 444 is a handloader friendly round. Yes you can load it from 44 spl firmly into 45/70 heavy load territory.

Light loads are accomplished with different than STD powders. Trail boss is a good one  with lead bullets. 5744 can work well with both Med to heavy loads call for 4198, RL7, H322 powders

Steer clear of all HP bullets for shooting big game. My favorite bullet is one that's explicitly designed for the trip4. It's made by Hornady and it weighs 265 grains. Speers 270 Deep Curl is another excellent choice.

Get a Manuel and read it!!  I like Lyman's.

For dies, you will never go wrong with a new RCBS, Redding or a Hornady set. Lead bullet or jacketed no worries the dies are designed with these things in mind. You could run into issues on calibers not reg used with lead bullets. But the 444 is cast friendly.

Best of luck,
CW

[gcrank1]

For light to medium loads you may not even need to resize, just stuff a lead bullet in that is snuggish in the fully fire-formed case mouth. As long as it will chamber up and extract it will be ok and probably shoot pretty well too. When I first messed with 444 (25+ years ago) I used my 44Spl dies to resize only the 'top' end of the brass and it worked out fine. I did get a 444 sizer off a gun show table finally and could FL resize when my brass got sticky.
BTW, I have been called cheap by some and creative by others  .

[twoshooter]

+1 on CW. The best place to start might be a Lee 310 gr mold. It is dirt simple to use and not expensive, the other mold I recommend is a Lyman 429421, that is a 245gr flat base. I suggest trying from 19 to 22 gr of 2400,( with the 300gr) make sure you keep the bullet close to the lands, it is a big deal for accuracy. At this level you won't need gas checks. I am using 20 gr of 2400 and get some under 1" groups @ 50 yards, that will zip right through an old 10" diameter electric pole.
    For jacketed, I recommend plain ole 240gr FN Soft point, and my ( as well as several others here) load is 46 gr of IMR 4198. This is stout but not "hot". It is right at factory levels, and I have taken many deer with this load. I must say, that if I could only have ONE whitetail gun/load combination this would be it.
    I now use strictly cast in my handi's, but the jacketed in my Marlin. With the lighter bullet try 12-17 gr of Unique or 14-19 gr of Blue Dot. I find that Blue Dot is a very versatile powder in these cast loads. Thes loads run from about 1200 to 1600 fps.

[geartow]

I do not reload but have a set of 444 dies came in a package deal what you have to barter?

[BBF]

My advise if using 240 gr Pistol bullets is  to hold down the velocities what a carbine would produce with 44 Rem Mag loads which is approx 1800 fps. I liked the 265 gr Hdy FN.

[Larry L]

In regards to the dies, you do not want the Hornady dies if loading lead bullets. Why? Because the bullet seater has a sliding sleeve in it that guides the bullet straight into the brass. The sleeve will not accept any bullet larger than .429. RCBS is a good choice.
As you've probably figured out, pistol bullets pushed to rifle velocities don't work very well. Pistol bullets will just blow up on  anything it hits- leaves, fog, bugs, etc. If you intend to plink, pistol bullets loaded at pistol velocities can work but they make lousy hunting bullets. Like most everybody, for hunting I use the 265gr Hornady as it's made for the velocities of the 444. It works real good on feral hogs of the 4-500 lbs size. There's not a lot of difference between hitting them with that 265gr bullet or a Peterbilt. It's a fun round to play with, you'll be happy with it the first game you drop.

[gcrank1]

But then its just a 44 Mag.........
I did that, and even lower to 44 Spl. loads in my old Marlin lever 444 (just because I wanted to have a less abusive fun shootin' load, that gun hurt me), yet my 45-70 Ultra Hunter H&R doesnt, hmmmm. Thinking back, though, that Marlin may have been when my persistent neck injury was more fresh?
Just like the 45-70 you can load light (stuff you cant buy) to full house and enjoy your level of performance. If a 444 came along at the right price here I'd be very tempted, I like 44s.

[quickdtoo]

In regards to the dies, you do not want the Hornady dies if loading lead bullets. Why? Because the bullet seater has a sliding sleeve in it that guides the bullet straight into the brass. The sleeve will not accept any bullet larger than .429. RCBS is a good choice.

Hornady New Dimension 444 dies work fine for me with .430" jacketed and .432" cast!  I suppose if I used RCBS dies they'd all be in the same hole!! 

Tim

[Larry L]

Okay Tim, just how do you make a .430 bullet fit in the .429 sliding sleeve? I can't even get Rainier plated bullets to work in mine as they are .430.

[quickdtoo]

Mine worked fine as it came from the factory, I suspect yours is either defective or they put the wrong sleeve in it, contact Hornady and they'll make it right for ya, they're real good about stuff like that, I bent a zip spindle, called em to order new one, told her it was totally my fault , she said no charge and sent me a replacement! 

Tim

http://www.hornady.com/contact_us

[twoshooter]

The original 444 bullets were the same as 44 mag, and the danger of "explosive expansion" is overblown. I would not try to put out an XTP 200 gr @ 2600 fps, but the std 240 gr Jacketed SP @ 2200 fps is NOT going to explode. I have shot a dozen deer, had ONE bullet recovered, and it had picture perfect expansion. The rest were complete pass through, and none were giant gaping holes, just what I expect of good expansion somewhere in the .750 range. The argument of not downloading or it is just a 44 mag is specious. That is like saying if you could run your car motor @ 5500 rpm and get the same results as a larger engine @ 2800 rpm, just get the small motor. The excess capacity insures less wear and tear, longer life , and if you need it, it is there.

[gcrank1]

Well, I ain't arguing, just observing that a 44 Mag equiv. load in a 444 is really, for any and all practical purposes, just a 44 Mag..........facts are not 'specious'.

[twoshooter]

To the extent that a 429 dia 240 gr bullet traveling at 1700 fps has the same energy and effect regardless if it came from a 44 mag or a slingshot, you are indeed correct. What I was saying that for the purposes of deciding what to buy, or to load, there is a difference. Two people riding in a van does not make it the same as a coupe.

[BBF]

I'm a frugal guy( OK call me cheap) I've used LEE dies plus a few other makes. The LEE works fine for me loading the 45-70. I use a seperate expander Die as well as a Factory Crimp unit from LEE as well.

[ncloader88]

My plan for this gun is a 44mag with options!   I will have a lot of room to go before I reach the potential of this cartridge, but here in NC I don't need it for much more than a woods gun.  I already have a 30-06 for long range and I got the 444 so that I could cast my own hunting bullets.  I figure that if I ever need the extra room in the 444 case, it will still be there.  I don't think our 100lb whitetails will be able to tell that I'm shooting reduced loads.   I know trail boss and 2400 can get me into 44mag velocities, but does anyone know of a middle-of-the-road powder that will beat what the 44mag can do, but stays below 1800fps?

[twoshooter]

You will have to be careful or the 2400 will put you past that mark. I recommend IMR 4198 (the same as for jacketed) and RL7. Lyman 49th edition lists 32.5 gr of 4198 as the accuracy load with the 240 gr cast &1550 fps. 36gr gets you up to right at 1700 fps. This is from an 18" test barrel, you should gain 15-20 fps per inch of barrel at least and the handi is a 22 " barrel. That means about 1625 fps & 1775 fps respectively.
    The MAX listed out of the 44 barrel is just over 1700 fps, that can be reached with 20.5 gr of 2400.  If you shoot much you will come to appreciate that a pound of 4198, which runs about $26 around here, will load about 215 rounds per pound. That = 13 cents per round for powder. 2400 will load 350 rounds to very close the same performance @ $19 a pound, that = 6 cents per round  2400 comes in 4lb Cannisters for $65 = 4.6 cents per round. One purchase..... 1400 rounds ( best buy) That is a LOT of 444's.
(ps @ that level, 100 rounds of brass will probably last well into the 2nd cannister...... maybe into the 3rd.)

[ncloader88]

Are there any issues with case capacity when using 2400?  Are you using any fillers to take up the extra room?  I already have trail boss for plinking, but it sounds like 2400 is the way to go for short range hunting. It's always good to get experienced opinions. Glad to get you in on this twoshooter, figured it wouldn't be long before you showed up

[Ranger99]

there are supposed to be some
good loads with unique, but none
of my data manuals have it. iv'e
always used H4198 with good
results for regular loads. i've
not made any cast 444 loads,
but it sounds interesting.

[gcrank1]

I doubt that a case full of Trail Boss (not that starting 70% load) to a heavy cast bullet base will fail to do the job. You can drive 'em faster but they are likely to go all the way through as I suggested and anything the other side of the animal is wasted. 

[twoshooter]

I regularly shoot 20 gr of 2400 and the 300 gr Lee bullet, with no problem whatsoever. My Lyman cast handbook shows 17 gr of Unique and a 245 gr cast as an accuracy load, although that is about max. 1620 fps. I also have had good luck with blue dot in a lot of these loads, shooting from 15 to 18 gr. Incidentally, Midway has the new 4th edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet book on sale for 17.99. I am going to pick one up at Midway on Friday on my way to KC to see the grandkids for their B-day.
     The case capacity of the 444 is such that many of the heavier loads are actually fairly compressed powder charges, 20 gr of 2400 takes up slightly over half the case space with a 300gr cast.   
     I dont have a chrony, but I guestimate that that 2400 load is producing somewhere around 1500fps with the 300gr. Maybe someone here that has a 444 and a chrony will run a couple and let us know.

[BBF]

Another possibilty for powders using "boolits" to 250 gr perhaps even heavier are all the "Dot" powders.  Red,Green,Blue will get you 1500 fps and so does Unique.
I don't have the data for SR 4759 with a bullet over 240 gr weight but would not be surprised if it was useful.
 
For a cast 240 gr bullet  26 gr of SR-4759 will give you  1500+ ft/sec and 29 gr will net you 1700+ ft/sec
 
For the 265 gr Hdy IMR 4198 is hard to beat.

[twoshooter]

BBF is correct, the SR 4759 is an excellent powder in this type of load, so is XMP5744, I just did not list them as I was sticking with more familiar powders that I also use in other applications. I shoot a LOT of Blue Dot and 2400, in mag pistol loads, cast rifle loads, and heavy shotgun loads also. If I had to grab just one keg of powder while running out into a shtf situation it would be one of those two, and I could not say which until it happened.
     Both the SR & XMP are bulky powders that are very stable and made for reduced loading in larger cases. If you are not using the other calibers and gun types, they would be a good choice.

[ncloader88]

Thanks guys, just looked up the XMP-5744 and it looks like exactly what i need!    SR-4759 looks pretty promising as well.  I am guessing that the IMR powder will be easier to find locally, but if I can find the XMP, I will go with that.  There is published 30-06 reduced load data online for the XMP that will allow me to shoot cast bullets out of my UC barrel if I wanted to, so this powder would fill my needs well.  Not too worried about reduced loads in the 06. Since it's the UC, it kicks about like a 243.  That muzzle brake sure does the trick!    Cast loads would work better though if I could keep the speed down a little, that's where the XMP comes in

[cwlongshot]

5744 is a good choice, ( that's why I mentioned it ) it's a newer "bulky" case filling powders, well suited for large cases! ESP lighter loadi gs where one used to use a tiny amount of a faster powder.
Excellent loads for 45/70 (and bigger) as well as 444, 375 Winny and 500 S&W!

Best of luck with it!!

CW

[Wagguy80]

     Been looking at reloading for the .444 as well.  Ammo is just so high, even for reloading the Hornady 265gr bullets are pretty expensive.  Was looking at perhaps using some hard cast SWC bullets as they price is super cheap in comparison.  However there is a lot I don't yet know, my reloading experience being pretty limited to the little lee reloading kits. 

[quickdtoo]

Thanks guys, just looked up the XMP-5744 and it looks like exactly what i need!    SR-4759 looks pretty promising as well.  I am guessing that the IMR powder will be easier to find locally, but if I can find the XMP, I will go with that.

When looking for the XXX5744, don't worry about the XMP or other alpha designations, it's changed several times, MR5744 and XMR5744 just to name a couple,  now it's just 5744! 

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/products/rifle/?view=20&product=5744

EDIT: http://www.accuratepowder.com/faq/

11. Why are the Accurate powder designations/names so different and confusing?

As long as the numeric/s is/are the same, i.e. examples, “A” or “AA” no9” or “A” or ‘AA” 4350” the burn rate and load data will be the same. The “XMR” and “XMP” prefixes, and/or “BR” post-fixes was eliminated ca 2003 and does not apply anymore.
 
Also since the Accurate Arms Company does not exist anymore (Since late2004/early 2005 when they sold out to Western powders Inc) the “AA” prefix is also not applicable anymore.
 
The powders are merely designated with an “A” prefix or the full name “Accurate”.
 
The “Scot” name used on some of the shotgun powders i.e. Scot Solo1000 is also not been used since 2003.

[gcrank1]

One of the keys to successful cast bullet shooting is to forget what you know about jacketed bullet shooting.
Well, not entirely, but you dont start out using the same dia. bullets or try to achieve the high velocities right off.

[BBF]

SR 4759 will also fit your need for cast loads from the 30-06.

[ncloader88]

     Been looking at reloading for the .444 as well.  Ammo is just so high, even for reloading the Hornady 265gr bullets are pretty expensive.  Was looking at perhaps using some hard cast SWC bullets as they price is super cheap in comparison.  However there is a lot I don't yet know, my reloading experience being pretty limited to the little lee reloading kits.

That is the main reason I decided to get into casting.  You can get wheel weights for almost nothing (50 cents/pound max) and you can make a little over twenty 310grain bullets per pound!  The brass in large caliber, straight walled cartridges can be loaded many MANY times, so you can shoot for not much more than the cost of powder and primers.  If you want REALLY cheap, go with the 44 mag.  The bass is cheap, (heck, even the ammo is pretty cheap) and they have a lee loader for it as well which is what you are used to.