You all want HIM for president?

[Bob Riebe]

http://www.examiner.com/article/oil-company-ownership-of-battery-patents-threatens-electric-car-production

http://www.fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?p+690

http://www.chemeurope.com/en/encyclopedia/Nickel-metal_hydride_battery.html

You act like you are worried about the health of people who live by coal powered generating stations meanwhile:
http://www.reduse.org/en/blog/lithium-extraction-chilean-north

[ChungDoQuan]

http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/InsideNimhBattery/inside_nimh_battery_technology.html

No lithium in NiMH batteries.

[ChungDoQuan]

We have just scratched the surface of battery technology. There is so much more coming...if Big Oil and others allow it out. Mr. CDQ's links are accurate in my opinion. Main high grade lithium resources are in Afghanistan, as are other rare earths. There is no shortage of electricity on planet earth_ _just a way to store it.
.
.
.
....TM7

Nikola Tesla often said the same thing, TM!

[SHOOTALL]

So now we've gone from "those batteries never existed," and, "Chevron wouldn't do that," to "those batteries are too dangerous." The NiMH battery IS cost effective--- that point was already made. The cost would be about 1/10th the cost of lithium ion cells, once you add the charge controller difference. Your ball.

So when did they exist in a production vehicle that was safe and road worthy ? I said they existed in small sizes not in vehicles other than remote control toys  . You are the spin dr your ball.

[Bob Riebe]

http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/InsideNimhBattery/inside_nimh_battery_technology.html

No lithium in NiMH batteries.

You are correct but the Lithium-Ion has the advantages over Ni -Mh that the Ni-Mh has over the Ni-Cad.

The high rate of self-discharge is the main failing of the Ni-Mh.

Lithium-Ion is, as of now, the future.   It is to the Nickel-Metal hydride what the Ni-Cad was to the Alkaline etc.

No matter what battery is used, in Minn. where I live, where -40 F is not uncommon, any battery powered car is as useful as a bicycle in a blizzard.

[dwalk]

in TODAY"S battery driven vehicle technology, for working in load bearing, is there an electric powered vehicle capable of towing a ladened, two horse trailer, available?
if there is, i doubt it would be affordable, or practical, for the average driver to afford.
keep on developing the battery technology..but continue to support the existing until it's no longer practical or affordable.
how long did it take the United States to get away from the horse as it's primary source of "Power" and transportation? how long was steam the primary source of major, industrial "power". (steam is still in use in many industries, too)
obama wants to kill 'fossil fuel' sources NOW...that would kill much more than it would help; our economy...this country relies on diesel/gasoline...whether we like it or not; it's NOT going to change "Overnite"...

[Empty Quiver]

If that coal plant is 70 years old, it needs to be replaced. Do you have any respiratory problems? Know people who do? Do you know people around you who have died from lung disease, like cancer or COPD? Ask the people who live near you if they've ever had to paint their car or their house because of the damage from the coal smoke. Now ask them if they think the coal burners need to make more money by doing business the every-man-for-himself way.

Not only did I live near one of those behemouths, my dad worked there for 35 years. I know a bit about what you are describing.
 
Dad drove there for all of those 35 years never ever repainted a vehicle. I Remember in the '70's when they started retrofitting Electrostatic Particulate Scrubbers. I Remember them shutting down when they could no longer find coal that was clean enough to burn economically. I also remember them re-opening when suitable coal was found. That generator was converted to Nat Gas, fired a few times as a peaking generator and finally shut down permanantly. Better than 100 high paying Union jobs down the crapper.
 
Shipping electricity is about as inefficient a use of fossil fuels as you can imagine. No, actually, the most inefficient I can think of would be to store that electricity in a battery and then use it to power a car.
 
The reason to make coal into electricity is because using coal to heat homes does pollute terribly.  Coal is an abundate resource, to let it lie unused is stupidity worthy of a progressive with too much money to spend.
Your feelings on this subject are just feelings not facts. If you can show me a car that has needed repainting do to a coal fired generator I'll quickly appologize. Your observations are rooted in the early 20th century. It has been quite illegal to pollute in the manner you describe for quite some time.

[rickt300]

Actually using wind to charge batteries is pretty efficient as is using solar panels for charging batteries. I just at present don't see being able to get by on batteries of any type to do what I need a vehicle to get done or do the job in many manufacturing scenarios (like power a CNC lathe). Attacking energy is just one more of Obama's many ways to destroy our manufacturing base and economy.

[Cuts Crooked]

All I know fer sure is that I recently had the "priviledge" of driving a Ford Escape Hybrid from Des Moines, Iowa to Little Rock, Arkansas and back. It was the worst POS I have ever driven! The BEST it could do was 20 mpg on the trip down. On the way back it barely made 18mpg! Worse yet, it's performance was so bad that it could barely get out of it's own way!

My 1992 Dodge Caravan, with the 3L Mitsubishi mill, gets 28 mpg on the highway fer cryin' out loud!

[Anna]

All I know fer sure is that I recently had the "priviledge" of driving a Ford Escape Hybrid from Des Moines, Iowa to Little Rock, Arkansas and back. It was the worst POS I have ever driven! The BEST it could do was 20 mpg on the trip down. On the way back it barely made 18mpg! Worse yet, it's performance was so bad that it could barely get out of it's own way!

My 1992 Dodge Caravan, with the 3L Mitsubishi mill, gets 28 mpg on the highway fer cryin' out loud!

All you have to do is go online and see who has invested heavily in battery technology. That tells the whole story right there . The technology used in hybrids is nothing new .
Submarines used it forever untill the nukes came online, the diesel locomotives still do.
But look at the size of these things and the type of fuel they use, that's where the difference comes in.
Not to mention the price factor that comes onto play with something like this that actually works.

[ChungDoQuan]

So now we've gone from "those batteries never existed," and, "Chevron wouldn't do that," to "those batteries are too dangerous." The NiMH battery IS cost effective--- that point was already made. The cost would be about 1/10th the cost of lithium ion cells, once you add the charge controller difference. Your ball.

So when did they exist in a production vehicle that was safe and road worthy ? I said they existed in small sizes not in vehicles other than remote control toys  . You are the spin dr your ball.

1994. GM's EV1. Killed off when GM realized how little the maintenance costs would be and when Chevron realized how the availability of cheap, lightweight NiMH batteries would impact the oil industry.

[SHOOTALL]

  good try

[ChungDoQuan]

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

[Anna]

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone .


Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.


I am The Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me .  " Obama " ?

[Bob Riebe]

1994. GM's EV1. Killed off when GM realized how little the maintenance costs would be and when Chevron realized how the availability of cheap, lightweight NiMH batteries would impact the oil industry.

Must be the same bunch who stole and destroyed blue-prints for the 50mpg carb. fifty  years ago.
They must be getting pretty old by now.

[finisher]

chang. Hussein doesn't brag much about the bailout money he gave gm being used to build new plants in china and create jobs for the chinese. YEP, hussein is a real  illegal kenyan hero. POWDERMAN. 

Not to mention what his open borders have done to American born jobs around here.Business should
just put up signs saying that if your not from Mexico,you need not apply here .
You can talk China all day long , but it is Mexico that is getting the bulk of our jobs , and sending their workers up here to get anything they can and send it all home. The biggest part of our dollars is going south of the border , you should see a BOA or a Wells Fargo on pay day around here . 


Our streets and neighborhoods are starting to look like Juarez Mexico , there are more Mexican flags
flying around here than any other.  Taco carts and Mexicano Restaurants are on every street corner.
There are more Mexican music radio stations now than any other combined . Section eight housing
has all but ruined every neighborhood in this town . The politicians sure do have people looking in the
wrong direction when it comes to this . It's like they don't us knowing the real direction this is taking.
And it sure isn't China as much as you think , not by a long shot .


I don't see millions of low pay Chinese Nationals coming here in droves sucking up every job there is
out there . Flooding our welfare roles , living in shacks made of cardboard out behind your house .
Relieving themselves on our streets in plain view , making it nearly impossible for our kids to go to school safely . Stealing anything they can get their hands on , no I'm sorry it sure isn't the Chinese that are doing all of this .

*******************
Come to the San Gabriel Valley in Los Angeles county. The Chinese have been running rackets for centuries when Europeans didn't even have a written language. They are much better at keeping a clean house on the outside but trust me, in these communities they have it all; drugs, gambling, political corruption, and human trafficking.


The average law abiding suburbanite or rural-"ite" wouldn't recognize it if you pointed it out to them and the cops in LA are either not legally smart enough to build a case or their upper echelon is on the take and don't operate against what cannot be seen from the streets.


I only recognize it because I having grown up in an extremely culturally diverse environment, I know the cultures, and as a kid, I played with some of the same (Asian) guys that run some of this action today. I've also spent quite a number of years overseas all over the East and West Pacific rim.


They are no different in LA, they're just better at hiding it and maintaining their cultural "houses". These Chinese are playing the same racket that the Mexican Illegals are with the welfare, and real estate, packing multiple families into houses though rather than cheap government funded housing. And yes, Quit a good number of them are also here illegally. The only difference is that they specialize in SKILLED AND TECHNICAL LABOR.


And when it comes down to it, that is really one of the base elements of the whole political corporate racket- it is a war over cheap and abundant labor.


The Chinese are coming. Some legally, and some by the cargo freight car. Do you have the slightest clue of the shear volume of international commerce that runs through the Port Of Los Angeles in a single day?


They are not carrying AK-47s though. But there are way more of them than anyone in rural middle America may realize. They're better at being quiet and staying socially inconspicuous than your average hot blooded Mexican. But I guess people really only get bent on the things that are right in front of their faces rather than the more subtle encroachments that are not so easily perceived.


No one is going to get everything they want from either of these corporate political whores. They are not on the side of America because they answer only to the "all mighty dollar".


These petty little issues that so many on these boards whine about are but a smoke screen to keep the country divided.


If there is one thing that history has shown time and again (and yet we seem to forget), is that change is inevitable. It is good for some bad for others, and some simply adapt and weather the storms. I know that I'm not going to get what I want out of this election or out of either of these two clowns. And why should I; being in their eyes, a mere "vessel of commerce"; a walking breathing dollar sign.


In closing though, I read a lot of moaning and groaning and "W"itching on this site. My family is struggling, so what? I don't get to go hunt or hit the range or take the tuna trips like I used to. I certainly don't own acreage. BUT MAN...EVERY DAY I TAKE A GOOD LONG LOOK AT THE GOOD THINGS THAT I DO HAVE and I live and love while I still can because sooner or later, and MOST INEVITABLY, it may very well be gone... and no one that you or I voted for will give a damn while they're laughing their way to their foreign banks.


If you seriously do not grasp this picture then you cling to an ILLUSION.


I apologize for hi jacking your post Anna.

[Anna]

Wow,no problem. Switch around a few references and locations and I couldn't have said it any better.         I believe that a vote for Romney will only allow us to hang on by a thin thread for a little while longer.
In the hopes that we might be able to stop this invasion of our country, but I doubt it .
A vote for Obama will seal the deal against us very quickly if he wins this time around. As of right now 
we are the most discriminated against group thats out there. And we can't get any of our elected officials to come out and admit that. Until at least it gets to where it effects them also, but by then it will be to late.
 

[mcwoodduck]

Wow,no problem. Switch around a few references and locations and I couldn't have said it any better.         I believe that a vote for Romney will only allow us to hang on by a thin thread for a little while longer.
In the hopes that we might be able to stop this invasion of our country, but I doubt it .
A vote for Obama will seal the deal against us very quickly if he wins this time around. As of right now 
we are the most discriminated against group thats out there. And we can't get any of our elected officials to come out and admit that. Until at least it gets to where it effects them also, but by then it will be to late.

I remember in the late 70's under Carter and the huge (then, drop in the bucket now) deficit spending and the Japanese buying our debt  because the interest rates were good and the investment was safe.  People were fearing that the Japanese would own so much of our debt and that we needed to get control of our spending or at some point we will not beable to pay and the Japanese will demand California or Hawaii, or Both to cover the debts.
This may actually be a reason to vote for Obama.  He had no problem telling GM stock holders that they were greedy and that he was not going to honor their stocks.  He has no problem telling investment houses and banks that the debts people owe on property should be forgiven and At some point when interest rates go up and the debt service on the debt takes over and makes it so that SS can not be paid Obama will simply fault on the debt calling the holders greedy.  At the same time making T Bills unable to be sold forcing a ballanced budget from them on.

[BUGEYE]

interesting to note the untimely unusual death of Tesla.

very mysterious indeed,  a heart attack at age 86...

tesla was an interesting character and his bio makes a good read.
I think he was born too early.

[Anna]

The EMF of his experiments got him lol.  But no kidding, from what we now know. Standing beside
a cascading arc like with his bridge for prolonged periods of time, is not a real good idea .

[powderman]

BUGEYE. Heart attack at age 86?? My goodness, whodathunkit. POWDERMAN. 

[Anna]

interesting to note the untimely unusual death of Tesla.

very mysterious indeed,  a heart attack at age 86...

tesla was an interesting character and his bio makes a good read.
I think he was born too early.

Like with Marconi, a lot of people stole his stuff and only until recently have either one of them gotten
any credit for what they had accomplished.

[mcwoodduck]

Of course you agree with him you are a Big Business conspericy nut.  Where anything for profit is bad.

Well, that's a personal attack, and just your fat sloppy paint brush opinion. As a guy who functioned well and entirely in the private sector, made profits and met payroll, I can say I'm all for fair profits and private enterprize in most all endeavors, just not in some areas that aren't discrestionary or that are essential.  I'm not really a big fan of gotcha capitalism, corporate monopoly and fascism, or cronyism that tries to sell itself as genuine free enterprize...Got that!? I prefer a more balanced approach to macroeconomics and far less radical ideaology of your brand.
..

  Let me tell you the only way you are going to get the Super electric car is if there is a profit in making them. The Tesla and the one Al Gore is involved in are really expensive and of course like the big screen TV a few need to pay a lot for the first few to get the technology paid for.  but the failure of the Volt tells me it will be a long time before another main stream company makes an electric car.

So what? What's new? And interesting to note the shanangins of crony JP Morgan squelching Tesla and Westinghouse...interesting to note the untimely unusual death of Tesla, too. Takes time to develope new technologies and free them from corpo fascist 'lock ups'.. And you wonder why I say you are a Big business conspericy nut?  I have a hard time believing that you owned a company and think that the goverment/ People  are entitled to your research, your intellectual properties, and your hard work.  Ever hear of NASA?Yes that is the agency Obama has turned from exploration and scientific enlightenment to a dead end agency.  But I understadn what you are trying to say, and you are wrong.  The technology that got a man ot the moon and back was done by the private sector with the government paying for it.  They set out a spec and then paid to have multiple companies come up with a good or service that will meet the spec.  Many products that we use today came out of the space race and those private companies sold those products and technology to the private sector.  Or do you think NASA bottled and SOLD TANG? That was gov supported basic research and which resulted in great private sector enterprize It was Government contracts to meet a spec that created the research and new products.  It was not NASA engineers in a huge lab creating products.  They were testing the products that others produced.. Also interesting, is BHO's energy grants I believe 62 or 63 grants for basic start up primarily in sorely needed new Energy startup industries resulted in a failure of only 4 or 5 industries, Solyndra and a couple of others which you, Mitt and fellow GOP cronies dwell on. So when it comes to picking shakey startup industries, as Mitt harps, that would be a 'loser' rate of 8%!...8%..!! Got that!?.. When we compare that to Bain Capital for instance, we see master capitalist, Mittster and Bain, had a failure rate of 22% in their picks; and didn't Bain file Chap 11..? 4 of 5 is 80% failure rate and the 5th will fail as soon as they run out of federal $.  But that is the biggest difference between the two.  Mitt with Bane took HIS money and invested it in companies that he could either turn around or sell parts off for other people to grow into successful business.  Obama Borrowed money to pay off his contributors in the failed companies.  And what do you care if Bain is successful or not, it is his Money, his investors money, NOT tax dollars.  and Failing with 22% is a whole lot better than failing at 80% like Obama (GOT that!)
.
 

Cause as we all know the VOLT line was closed due to poor sales.  The cost of the volt Vs the cost of a similar hybrid or even gas only car makes the gas only car more attractive even with the high cost of fuel.

.
The Volt was voted Car of the Year by Euro car journalist, and the car operates like a diesel-electric locomotive in concept..  New cars models like this always cost alot due to economies of scale in first runs. I know people that love their Volt, especially with gas at $4.25 and current mile long gas lines in the hurricane zone. BMW and M-B are scrambling to produce analogous models, and with new battery tech. I've read battery tech for these cars may be reduced to a few lbs in the future. You see mcwoodduck, when it comes to making an omlet_ _you have to grate up some Gruyere cheese, dice some shallots and proscuitto, and whip some cream into the eggs. OK so let me see if I get this right.  The volt line is shut down, they over made and undersold the car and over priced it.  and now you are telling me BMW and MB are making a version of this car when there are surplus models on the car lots.  No to mention many that were caught in the storm and were flooded have caught fire.  The Nissan Leaf has not sold. and all the expensive little sports cars are priced too high to be common and are toys.  While they may be a great commuter car, the problem is we as americans like to be able to take a road trip and the electric cars in the current technology are not able to go on a trip and are not wanted as a sole car.  In your omlette senario are you saying wee need to have a few companies FAIL so we can have the star trek global working for the common good merit tocracy?  Because it never works.
.
.
...TM7

[Cuts Crooked]

The technology used in hybrids is nothing new .
Submarines used it forever untill the nukes came online, the diesel locomotives still do.
But look at the size of these things and the type of fuel they use, that's where the difference comes in.
Not to mention the price factor that comes onto play with something like this that actually works.

True, it's been around ferebber! AND IT DOESN"T WORK FER CHIT!!!!!!!!!! 18 mpg isn't what I'd call a success by any stretch!

[Bob Riebe]

Let us see, hmm, at this point in time I am driving a 1984 Delta 88 with a 307 Oldsmobile engine.

All the miles have taken a toll and I can hear that the camshaft is worn due to a type of tapping when it warms up but in the last two unladen trips, averaging 300 miles between fll-ups, I have gotten 20 mpg one time and 22 mpg the other.

While puling an eight by four trailer, made out of the rear-end of a 1930ss Chebby truck, with fourteen bales standing on end, kind of like pulling a brick, I got fifteen miles to a gallon twice.

Sadly unlike the Dakotas where you can get alcohol free regular for approx. ten cents a gallon more, here in the State of liberalville, Minnesota, you can only get alcohol free premium at a few stations for from fifteen to twenty cents a gallon more, but in the long run the increased fuel mileage pays the difference.-- (And the dick-heads want to increase the amount of alcohol to twenty percent.)

Boy I wish I had a hybrid, I bet I would be getting a more proper 18-11 mpg.
I guess I will just have to live with being politically incorrect.

[finisher]

Wow,no problem. Switch around a few references and locations and I couldn't have said it any better.         I believe that a vote for Romney will only allow us to hang on by a thin thread for a little while longer.
In the hopes that we might be able to stop this invasion of our country, but I doubt it .
A vote for Obama will seal the deal against us very quickly if he wins this time around. As of right now 
we are the most discriminated against group thats out there. And we can't get any of our elected officials to come out and admit that. Until at least it gets to where it effects them also, but by then it will be to late.

**************
I forgot to mention in reference to the Port of Los Angeles (one of the largest commercial international ports in the world), that it is OWNED by the CHINESE and they have been building what is said to be the largest port in the world right next door in Baja, Mexico.


Many here complain about labor stealing of the illegals and I have felt the effects. Hell even the masons union in LA hires illegals and pays them prevailing wages. I've had the opportunity to contract using illegal labor, hell, I speak the language along with a smattering of a couple others. But I didn't do it.


So I say, before voicing complaints about illegals stealing jobs, take a look at who is hiring them and investigate how they get away with it. I can tell you for certain that plenty of card holding Republicans (along with democrats and any one else with the means) have no problem hiring immigrant labor so long as they can keep the fact from the public eye.


The Chinese (and Koreans) already have a STRONG political foothold in southern California and it grows with each election. They won't have to use military might to usurp this country. They are LONG skilled as a culture in operating collectively as a community in both legal and illegal acquisition of land and real estate.


I don't wish it and don't know if it will ever happen, but if things did eventually become hostile  on a racial level between white Americans and Asians... Take my word for it, whoever is able will be throwing rifles in the hands of every Mexican they can find.


Yeah, they have their wretchedness (AS DOES EVERY CULTURE) but I'd bet my chips that if the US were to ever again engage in A REAL FULL SCALE WAR ON THIS SOIL[size=78%] [/size](not this BS PR financed thing we've been doing) , you'd have plenty of Mexicans enlisting just as they did in WWII. And how were they rewarded for their service back then? Just ask any American sailor or marine of Mexican origin how he got treated in Los Angeles during the Zoot Suit Riots.


Take a look at your history. MacArthur loved them as a collective fighting force. There is a reason why up until this phony war, Mexicans, as a cultural and ethnic category have collectively received more Congressional Medals of Honor than any other group. And at that time, they were PROPORTIONATELY one of the smallest groups in the military. TALK ABOUT DISTINGUISHED SERVICE.


People are people and can choose to be as HUMAN as they wish to be so far as they do not limit themselves with self discriminating ethnic titles. I am a HUMAN BEING above all else. But more and more, as I get older, I find myself wanting more and more not to be associated with the human race as a whole out of pure shame. But what can I do except die.


I apologize again Anna... I'm done now.

[Anna]

The technology used in hybrids is nothing new .
Submarines used it forever untill the nukes came online, the diesel locomotives still do.
But look at the size of these things and the type of fuel they use, that's where the difference comes in.
Not to mention the price factor that comes onto play with something like this that actually works.

True, it's been around ferebber! AND IT DOESN"T WORK FER CHIT!!!!!!!!!! 18 mpg isn't what I'd call a success by any stretch!

That's because a car or a truck lack the overall size to carry the right amount of battery's that are needed to keep what is called a float charge . Cuts is right, if you are not experiencing any problems with your hybrid right now. You soon will, and it will cost more than the car is worth to repair that problem. Anyone that has ever had to foot the bill on an electric forklift knows exactly what I am talking about.  After just two years if anything no matter how small goes wrong with that system.
It usually effects or damages the battery's, with the replacement cost and the disposal fee of the battery's you could be looking at well over $7,000.00 dollars to repair your car.

[Anna]

Cuts what you experienced was because the battery's would no longer properly maintain a charge.
The tiny engines they are using in these hybrids then has to take over and is working its a$$ off to not only try and charge back up the battery's. but to keep the car moving. 
When this happens any off the shelf 300hp engine is going to get far better gas mileage then than that stupid trendy hybrid is.  Why ? Because the larger engine isn't having to work as hard that's why.
They only use the fuel to run that your foot says you need. This whole thing is a scam, just wait until its new battery time then tell me I'm wrong.

[Bob Riebe]

That's because a car or a truck lack the overall size to carry the right amount of battery's that are needed to keep what is called a float charge . Cuts is right, if you are not experiencing any problems with your hybrid right now. You soon will, and it will cost more than the car is worth to repair that problem. Anyone that has ever had to foot the bill on an electric forklift knows exactly what I am talking about.  After just two years if anything no matter how small goes wrong with that system.
It usually effects or damages the battery's, with the replacement cost and the disposal fee of the battery's you could be looking at well over $7,000.00 dollars to repair your car.

She has a real good point here.
 When the hybrids first hit the road, beyond saying it will never pay for itself as for that to happen one would have to keep it enough years that assumed, and I mean  assumed, mileage saving would pay for the outlay.

Problem, the battery pack will not last that long and at the time my friends a I first discussed this, a new battery pack was at least five thousand dollars, making financial saving in having a hybrid far less than zero; plus, it will give the car a trade-in value of zero.

Anyone who would be silly enough to buy a used hybrid would ask how long before the batteries are shot. No matter how many months or weeks were left it would be that amount of time before the owner the used hybrid would spend thousands of dollars to put in a new battery pack.
Only a fool would buy a car knowing it will have thousands of dollars in repair bills in the near future.

[Anna]

Bob you would need three times the battery capacity these cars now have to make them work.
Hybrids are new right now, but lets see in a couple of years what the Kelly Blue book will be saying they are worth!  So unless your pockets are deep enough to keep a submarine or a locomotive running. I would take what Cuts has said about this to heart,and avoid a hybrid like a snake.
Because in the end it will still bite you .