You all want HIM for president?

[SHOOTALL]

it's all about investing in the future , it has a nice sound dosen't it  . We recycle at a lost , we are suppose to buy and operate cars at a loss , we are to back power at a loss. Seems our future will be a loss . All of these things may come to pass and good but to force them before it is enomical to do so at a loss is pure folly. Humans alway rise to meet needs as they present themselves but now we seem to create need and fix it at a loss why is that ? As always follow the money and the reason will be apperant.

[Anna]

Yeah but couldn't you disable the electro interface and just run the hybrid on the small gas engine,? for example I think a Prious is 80 hp. then strip out batteries and electic gen/motor for weight savings.  When gas is $7 eighty hp seems about right for running to the store.
.
..TM7

That is a good point and at some time we may be seeing conversions like that as after market solutions. But the real way to do that is to leave in the traction motors and use them full time with no engine assist overide. Only hook them directly to a DC generator on the back of the old engine.

This way depending on the number of poles on the generators rotor, the old engine would be governed for its peak tourqe curve in proportion to a stabilized RPM . Enough poles and you could run the engine at a constant RPM of say 1000 or less ! Hardly above its idle speed to maintain a constant rated KW.

An electronic governor like say a Woodward would get a signal from the accelerator only to give the engine more fuel but never change its RPM. This way once your on the open road the engine would barely be working at all because of the cars forward momentum no matter how fast that might be.

As you say, the only time the engine would then be under any real load is when your taking off from a dead start and that would be only momentary. I saw this done on an electric forklift and it did work.
In fact years later it is still running and not in some scrap pile somewhere. Hay, I once had a real smart boyfriend so what can I say ?

Two words in a nut shell, golf carts , but with a generator instead of the battery's.

[SHOOTALL]

so you over pay for a vehicle then try to make it enomical ?

[ChungDoQuan]

Would you rather overpay for a vehicle that makes a rich guy richer?

[SHOOTALL]

Would you rather overpay for a vehicle that makes a rich guy richer?

?

[Anna]

so you over pay for a vehicle then try to make it enomical ?

All aftermarket stuff we may see coming because of this.  Any hot rodder here can tell you that a lot of the times aftermarket is better than the factory original. If a conversion is less than the repair then that will be the only choice some of these people may end up having.

[ChungDoQuan]

Back in the "good ol days" maybe. Nowadays, for economy, you'd better bet on the engineers in Japan or Korea, or Germany. I've seen people modify new model cars, and motorcycles, for that matter. Occasionally they'll make one a bit faster, but they NEVER make them more economical as far as gas mileage.

[yellowtail3]

Crank tire pressure to max sidewall and become real conscious of conservation of momentum... shut down at stops... and economy goes up a fair bit. Upping tire pressure beyond what is on the door jamb counts as modification, right? Better handling/better mileage in exchange for less smoothness fm road.... a great trade-of, I'd say


http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11652

[Anna]

If the truth were to be known, it's all in the gear ratios VS the engines tourqe curve. The beauty of a traction motor is it eliminates the need for a transmission. It can maintain its BHP at any RPM as long as it has the juice (ampacity) to do it with. Another contender against a battery are the capacitors .
As now seen in children's toys, still in its infancy but gaining ground very quickly.

[Bob Riebe]

Would you rather overpay for a vehicle that makes a rich guy richer?

Like a Tesla?

[Anna]

It is to be noted, that on most modern locomotives once they are moving they switch over to the battery's to continue thier momentum.  Now days they are testing prototypes that actually have a truck with wheels on it that do not propel the locomotive. Like the other two do, these wheels in contact with the tracks spin and charge the battery's while useing the locos momentum from the traction motors .It isn't perpetual motion by a long shot,but it is becoming effective enough to kill the
main diesel engine and run for hours without useing any fuel .

All American ingenuity from the Electro Motive Division of General Motors. So, CDQ , put that in your pipe and smoke it !

[Bob Riebe]

Back in the "good ol days" maybe. Nowadays, for economy, you'd better bet on the engineers in Japan or Korea, or Germany. I've seen people modify new model cars, and motorcycles, for that matter. Occasionally they'll make one a bit faster, but they NEVER make them more economical as far as gas mileage.

They can if they choose to.

There is an auto writer, I think it is Vizard but do not quote me on that, that wrote a book that said there is no excuse for car, with carburettors, to get the poor to poorer mileage they did, whether family sedan or high performance vehicle, including the exotics from Europe.

Naturally the book was about how to over come this.

With today's owner installed programs that replace the factory settings, one can often with a simple dial, dial in the performance setting one wants.
The sad part is with the new Generation V small-block Chevy that is coming out the engineers brags it is designed so it will be far more difficult for rodders to hack the system.

[yellowtail3]

The sad part is with the new Generation V small-block Chevy that is coming out the engineers brags it is designed so it will be far more difficult for rodders to hack the system.

Why the hell would they want to do that, and how? I've not heard of this... don't know a thing about them. Is this post-LS series? I think the LS engines are just wonderful - compact, efficient, huge power. I'd love to have a clean 78 Trans Am with an LS2. Make mine blue, please, with a modern automatic.

[ChungDoQuan]

It is to be noted, that on most modern locomotives once they are moving they switch over to the battery's to continue thier momentum.  Now days they are testing prototypes that actually have a truck with wheels on it that do not propel the locomotive. Like the other two do, these wheels in contact with the tracks spin and charge the battery's while useing the locos momentum from the traction motors .It isn't perpetual motion by a long shot,but it is becoming effective enough to kill the
main diesel engine and run for hours without useing any fuel .

All American ingenuity from the Electro Motive Division of General Motors. So, CDQ , put that in your pipe and smoke it !

I fail to see why you're bustin' MY chops over it-- I said the trains had been more efficient when we first started this little meander. And the regeneerative braking was first developed by DIY electric car builders back at least into the '70s. BUT you can't do that with a modern gas vehicle, unless you count hybrids.

[Bob Riebe]

It is to be noted, that on most modern locomotives once they are moving they switch over to the battery's to continue thier momentum.  Now days they are testing prototypes that actually have a truck with wheels on it that do not propel the locomotive. Like the other two do, these wheels in contact with the tracks spin and charge the battery's while useing the locos momentum from the traction motors .It isn't perpetual motion by a long shot,but it is becoming effective enough to kill the
main diesel engine and run for hours without useing any fuel .

All American ingenuity from the Electro Motive Division of General Motors. So, CDQ , put that in your pipe and smoke it !

I fail to see why you're bustin' MY chops over it-- I said the trains had been more efficient when we first started this little meander. And the regeneerative braking was first developed by DIY electric car builders back at least into the '70s. BUT you can't do that with a modern gas vehicle, unless you count hybrids.

Oh you could.

If one had a vehicle with a manual lock-up transmission, one could use a magneto for ignition, which would mean the battery would be there only for starting and would get no input from a generator or alternator.
Now one could use regenerative braking to keep the battery charged as without it, it would need to be hooked to a charger every night.
--------------------------

Yellowtail:

Yes post LS.
Go to the Atlas F1 forum, tech. area there is a thread on it.

[mcwoodduck]

Bob you would need three times the battery capacity these cars now have to make them work.
Hybrids are new right now, but lets see in a couple of years what the Kelly Blue book will be saying they are worth!  So unless your pockets are deep enough to keep a submarine or a locomotive running. I would take what Cuts has said about this to heart,and avoid a hybrid like a snake.
Because in the end it will still bite you .

The Toyota hybrids  have been out for a while and the Honda  before that what is the Blue book of the 2005 Honda Insite or a 2006 Pruis.

[Anna]

Not anything close to what their regular counterparts are .

[ChungDoQuan]

A no option '07 Prius Books @ $14485. An '07 Solara Convertible SE  (Tried to get close to same starting price.) Books @ $14286. By the way, the batteries on the Prius have built in protection circuits. They never charge more than 85%, and never discharge below 50% Normal driving, that should make the battery packs last around 250,000 miles. Used and refurbished packs run from $1500 to $2700. As battery tech improves, and as they sell more Priuses (Prii?) those prices will come down.

[Cuts Crooked]

By the way, the batteries on the Prius have built in protection circuits. They never charge more than 85%, and never discharge below 50%

Soooo....it's battery never lets you use more than 35% of it's capacity? Wadda POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[justme]

Ummm,,, I could write a book here about the lack of knowledge touted as fact on this page.    Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? As for 50 mpg carburetors, dream on! Physics hasn't changed in a long time. Air/fuel ratio cannot be controlled with a carburetor the way it can with fuel injection, period. No how. Hybrid cars are fine, just not ones forced to be produced with OUR money! Toyota and others have produced viable hybrids without the governments money and they work just fine. The Prius came out in '01 and most are still on the road. No less than other '01 conventional cars. Very few have had replacement batteries. They are not prohibitively expensive and maintenance costs are very low. They just simply work. There are hybrid cars of all sizes now and most are very reliable. They would be kind of hard to sell if they weren't. Plug-in hybrids are here now also. They work if they fit your lifestyle needs.  But the real question one must ask is; How much gas mileage do you REALLY want?? Cars could be much smaller, lighter, with many less creature comforts, and a performance level of, say, a 1975 Pinto. Would YOU buy one? That's why they are not available. People won't buy them. Modern engineering can produce cars to a wide range of performance and economy levels, but to be profitable they have to fit in the window of what sells.

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? 

Uh......it doesn't have to go anywhere because a simple sensor switch could cut off the circut, when the battery is at full charge, and it's no longer generating anything.

[ChungDoQuan]

If they get close to 100% charge, the protection circuit does that, too. That's my point--- it's really hard to outdo Japanese design engineers in your back yard.

[Anna]

By the way, the batteries on the Prius have built in protection circuits. They never charge more than 85%, and never discharge below 50%

Soooo....it's battery never lets you use more than 35% of it's capacity? Wadda POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely !

[greenmtnboy]

Chungdo   I see your an avid poster here.  Great glad to see you have joined the best hunting, shooting, outdoor forum around.  But then again I get the feeling those 3 things arent why your here, Are They??  152 posts all in less than 2 months, All in 1 section  HMMMM  .   Yeah, obummer is that kinda low isnt he ?

[justme]

Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? 

Uh......it doesn't have to go anywhere because a simple sensor switch could cut off the circut, when the battery is at full charge, and it's no longer generating anything.

Physics is not your strong suit, is it? So, a car designed to be efficient would simply waste available free energy because the battery was full?  Wouldn't the dimmest of rookie engineers propose a slightly bigger battery at a lower SOC to have someplace to put the free energy? Guess what? they did...

[Anna]

If they get close to 100% charge, the protection circuit does that, too. That's my point--- it's really hard to outdo Japanese design engineers in your back yard.

Then why did they have to rely on us to get into space if they are so good ?  Why did they have to copy everything from cameras to tractors from us if they were so good ? There wouldn't even be a Japanese car or motorcycle market if it hadn't been for us . Why do they still buy their major airliners from us if they are so smart ?  And they still can not make a decent movie without us.
Just some cheesy thing with a fat guy in a lizard costume stomping all over Tokyo, and we even had to show them how to do that right !

The only reason they were even able to make the first transistor radio was because Motorola sold them the rights to their transistor. But they didn't invent that on their own, we did !
Us and the Russians were putting rockets into space when your a pacific rim buddy's were still without so much as a tv in order to watch that on. And we once owned a Toyota Land Cruiser,we nick named it the Toyota wallet bruiser it was such a POS compared to a Jeep. And that was when Jeep was still
a little auto maker here in the US called AMC .

So who are you to stick your chest out and tell us anything about those fine Japanese engineers? Who did nothing more than copy everything we as Americans had to invent, engineer, test, and perfect ?
Way before any of your guys ever laid a hand on any of it.  So go back to your own back yard before you start telling anyone who was here, and did it all first to do the same .

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? 

Uh......it doesn't have to go anywhere because a simple sensor switch could cut off the circut, when the battery is at full charge, and it's no longer generating anything.

Physics is not your strong suit, is it? So, a car designed to be efficient would simply waste available free energy because the battery was full?  Wouldn't the dimmest of rookie engineers propose a slightly bigger battery at a lower SOC to have someplace to put the free energy? Guess what? they did...

Where is it? I'm sorry I'm not expert with physics, but I DO understand electrical circuts and how they work, once a battery is fully charged the genny cuts out.....pretty simple. We've been avoiding overcharging for many years now. Bigger battery? Just more weight to haul around and burn more energy on.

Still, using only 35% of a batteries potential kinda stinks!

[justme]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm
This will get you started on the basics.

[Cuts Crooked]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm
This will get you started on the basics.

Fully understand it, but some don't.

[Anna]

You should know Cuts , you were blazing down the highway at 45 mph in a fine example of that technology getting only 18 mpg , lol. 
You know Cuts that is a very funny story, i can just see you wearing your hat and cussing that thing a blue streak !  &%#^?x =+^~! Car ! Did it go something like that ?
So basically what you have been saying while no one was listening is. That damn thing wouldn't catch a fat boy on a on bicycle ! lol to funny