You all want HIM for president?

[justme]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm
This will get you started on the basics.

Fully understand it, but some don't.

If you fully understood it, you wouldn't have said the things you did.

[Cuts Crooked]

You should know Cuts , you were blazing down the highway at 45 mph in a fine example of that technology getting only 18 mpg , lol. 
You know Cuts that is a very funny story, i can just see you wearing your hat and cussing that thing a blue streak !  &%#^?x =+^~! Car ! Did it go something like that ?
So basically what you have been saying while no one was listening is. That damn thing wouldn't catch a fat boy on a on bicycle ! lol to funny 

Unfortunately it WAS much like that!

But you folks should be cussin' too because it wuz on your dime.... government vehicle, and y'all paid fer the fuel too...wif yer tax dollors.

[Anna]

I dunno about that , I know a lot of mechanics that have had to work on hybrids and they all echoed just about the same thing Cuts has said about them. POS seems to be the common term used.
Or bay queens, because they are always in some repair bay awaiting parts or for some fool to come pay the repair bill . Nicknames like Hydud, Toyota Presh*t, money pit , BOB bring your own battery's.
Or wineo's revenge, sure makes me wanna go out and buy one.

[Bob Riebe]

Ummm,,, I could write a book here about the lack of knowledge touted as fact on this page.    Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? As for 50 mpg carburetors, dream on! Physics hasn't changed in a long time. Air/fuel ratio cannot be controlled with a carburetor the way it can with fuel injection, period. No how.=======By your reply you are waaaaay to young to understand the 50mpg carb. item.
No they cannot get fifty, at least not with a car that is not much more than motorcycle with doors but forties were/are obtainable.
The advantage to fuel injection is not mileage it is the ability to give similar power and mileage at any altitude; whereas a carb. would have to be readjusted.
If you ever drove a car in the mountains you would realize major power loss as you gained altitude and most did not find it worth the time or have the ability to rejet for the time in the mountains. Now if they lived there I am sure they probably knew how to do it.

 Toyota and others have produced viable hybrids without the governments money and they work just fine. The Prius came out in '01 and most are still on the road. No less than other '01 conventional cars. Very few have had replacement batteries. ======This link says you are wrong even though it is a pro-hybrid site, its number says 500 or so drivers a month have battery pack failure. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071391_life-after-death-what-happens-when-your-prius-battery-dies

.  But the real question one must ask is; How much gas mileage do you REALLY want? ? Cars could be much smaller, lighter, with many less creature comforts, and a performance level of, say, a 1975 Pinto. Would YOU buy one? ====== The Pinto had a one hundred pound tongue weight towing capacity.
 Toyota says NO TOWING with a Prius. Yes I would buy a Pinto over a Prius in a heart-beat.

[Anna]

That's not what Interstate battery or Raytheon are saying.  And do you want to be one of the poor 500 people who has a battery failure ? If any other transportation company had a 500 failures a month record costing their customers seven grand each time how long do you think they would be around ?

[Cuts Crooked]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm
This will get you started on the basics.

Fully understand it, but some don't.

If you fully understood it, you wouldn't have said the things you did.

No.......I fully understand it, but you obviously do not understand the principle,of a cut off sensor switch in an electric generating system....It breaks the circut.....no electricity being generated while it is shut off. (Jeeze! How hard is that to understand?!?!?!) Once the battery is at full charge, the genny can still be turning but not producing electrical flow. Much like a turbine in a power plant can still be spinning the genny but throwing a switch, cutting a circut to the brushes/armature in the genny, makes the genny quit producing electricity. So a genny CAN send electricity to a battery when needed, it can also be prevented from doing so when not needed.....in order to prevent an overcharge fer instance.

Cuts (Who's grandfather was the Super at the Bridgeport Power Plant in Iowa, and from whom he learned a few things) Crooked

[mirage1988]

Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? 

Uh......it doesn't have to go anywhere because a simple sensor switch could cut off the circut, when the battery is at full charge, and it's no longer generating anything.

Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? 

Uh......it doesn't have to go anywhere because a simple sensor switch could cut off the circut, when the battery is at full charge, and it's no longer generating anything.

The battery would no longer be at full charge once the vehicle is moving on level ground would it? When you factor in thermal loss, air and tire drag, radio and A/C or heat, the batteries are no longer at 100% SOC as soon as you start moving.
 Comparing a prius to a locomotive is like comparing an ultralight to a 747, their power needs are night and day.
A locomotive uses a diesel generator to power traction drives (basically electric motors) because the drives operate as the engine, transmission, and braking/ charging system all in one. A mechanical clutch/ transmission that could handle getting a fully loaded freight train moving and the braking system to stop it costs much more than the loss of efficiency of converting diesel to electricity to forward motion does, but that doesn't mean its best for our cars.
For example Fords ecoboost gas motors work like a direct injection twin turbo diesel but without turbo lag. I have 2 friends that just bought the new f-150 and they get 18 or better mpg and the motor makes 360 hp.
Only a gov't (or gov't paid) engineer could come up with the idea that it is somehow more efficient to convert fossil fuel to electricity to work, than to convert fossil fuel directly to work, because electric motors are more efficient. That is like using a gas generator to power an electric chain saw, because the electric saw is more efficient than the gas chainsaw. (I personally think they like being able to hear the voices in their head as they putt down the road with that poopeatin grin on their face in their blue prius) but thats just me......  
 

[yellowtail3]

If they get close to 100% charge, the protection circuit does that, too. That's my point--- it's really hard to outdo Japanese design engineers in your back yard.

(blah blah blah)... So who are you to stick your chest out and tell us anything about those fine Japanese engineers? Who did nothing more than copy everything we as Americans had to invent, engineer, test, and perfect ?
Way before any of your guys ever laid a hand on any of it.  So go back to your own back yard before you start telling anyone who was here, and did it all first to do the same .

Geez, Anna - did your grand daddy die on the Bataan Death March, or what?


I think the guy meant engineers in general, compared to backyard wrench-turners... but anyhow... Japan does somethings very well. They built great motorcycles, far better than anything HD could cobble together, since the late sixties.

You should know Cuts , you were blazing down the highway at 45 mph in a fine example of that technology getting only 18 mpg , lol.  ...

if Cuts was getting 18mpg in an Escape of any variety, whilst running 45mph on the highway... something was broken.

[SHOOTALL]

so you over pay for a vehicle then try to make it enomical ?

All aftermarket stuff we may see coming because of this.  Any hot rodder here can tell you that a lot of the times aftermarket is better than the factory original. If a conversion is less than the repair then that will be the only choice some of these people may end up having.

I have built and rebuild and agree many after market parts are better and most cost more if they are better. I agree it might be the only choice down the road . My point is why pay more now with that posiblity down the road ? A battry sitting in a car is going bad driven or not where you only buy gas as you use it 

[SHOOTALL]

Back in the "good ol days" maybe. Nowadays, for economy, you'd better bet on the engineers in Japan or Korea, or Germany. I've seen people modify new model cars, and motorcycles, for that matter. Occasionally they'll make one a bit faster, but they NEVER make them more economical as far as gas mileage.

yes in fact they have If you ever look into trucks and see the ones lifted and gear ratio change to accomidate the larger tires often on the road the truck will get better MPG. I have seen it when the MPG was checked with a GPS. The truck in question had Elec. Ign up grade , gear ratio changes , and transmission tweaked. Before the mods it averaged about 12 MPG after on the road it averaged 18 MPG or better depending on where you were going Moutians vs beach .I would agree about Germany but the other two have a history of aquiring technology .

[ChungDoQuan]

Chungdo   I see your an avid poster here.  Great glad to see you have joined the best hunting, shooting, outdoor forum around.  But then again I get the feeling those 3 things arent why your here, Are They??  152 posts all in less than 2 months, All in 1 section  HMMMM  .   Yeah, obummer is that kinda low isnt he ?

Mostly , like at least 90%, I READ on this board. Though I've owned guns for nearly 50 years, and have hunted and shot for most of that time, I'm no gun expert. There are 'way yonder more people on this board that have a lot more experience and expertise on guns, shooting, and hunting than I have. (And a few that THINK they are experts!) Questions I've had along those lines always get answered in the discussion. I own around 20 guns of all types (Not sure if you count barrels or stocks on Handis and Contenders.), counting the black powder guns, and no, I don't know everything about them, so I read this and other gun forums. Most other forums do not have political areas. Politics is different. Everyone has opinions, and that's all politics is to laymen, like it or not. Debate is one way of keeping the mind sharp, and sharpens the use of logic, vocabulary, and reason. Also, I like to try to sift the facts out of the beliefs, for my own reasons. Do I think Obama is the best President we ever had? Of course not. But, the world has changed. The country has changed. Romney, and his party, are WHY Obama was elected in the first place. Almost nobody likes everything about change, but that does not mean it's not going to happen. Like the dinosaurs, if we don't change fast enough, we will die off. I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I'm very conservative about some things, but very liberal about others. The Right took VOWS to not let this president succeed, no matter what. They've been largely successful, and they then blame the man for failing. That's dirty pool. If he had been given a fair shot at what he wanted to do, and then failed, it might be a different story. As far as I'm concerned, he gets another chance. It makes no sense at this time to go back to the righty policies that failed the first time. So, on the part of the board, which seems to be overrun by prejudices, I will call out the lies, contradictions, and inconsistencies in those prejudices.

[ChungDoQuan]

Back in the "good ol days" maybe. Nowadays, for economy, you'd better bet on the engineers in Japan or Korea, or Germany. I've seen people modify new model cars, and motorcycles, for that matter. Occasionally they'll make one a bit faster, but they NEVER make them more economical as far as gas mileage.

yes in fact they have If you ever look into trucks and see the ones lifted and gear ratio change to accomidate the larger tires often on the road the truck will get better MPG. I have seen it when the MPG was checked with a GPS. The truck in question had Elec. Ign up grade , gear ratio changes , and transmission tweaked. Before the mods it averaged about 12 MPG after on the road it averaged 18 MPG or better depending on where you were going Moutians vs beach .I would agree about Germany but the other two have a history of aquiring technology .

It was not a new truck, if you had to add electronic ignition and it was not a Toyota. If you just put on big tires and change the gear ratios you're giving up something else, like high speed stability, low speed mpg, etc. You probably also shortened the life of either the engine or drivetrain. You can call it stealing ideas, but often it is not. Did Chevrolet copy Ford when they built the V8? Harley Davidson tried to sue Yamaha for copying their Vtwin engine design. That went well: not only was HD not the first to configure the engine that way, but it was pointed out that with a single crankshaft, the engine HAS to be an inline or SOME angle of V. That's the only two ways to do it. The internal combustion engine has been produced for over 100 years. It is the most refined powerplant of all time. The chances of you accidentally discovering something new under a shade tree that generations of engineers missed is pretty remote. The truck you're talking about? All you did was get it a bit closer to today's trucks, and you see how much it improved? Those upgrades have already been done to new vehicles. You'll work awfully hard and spend a lot of money to get another 6 mpg out of that thing, for sure.

[BBF]

Simply making all the cars equipped with Diesel engines available in the USA/Canada that are running in Europe would be a happy improvement. There is no reason Diesel fuel should be as high or higher priced than gasoline.

[rickt300]

Diesel is higher because actual demand is more than keeping pace with gasoline.

[SHOOTALL]

Back in the "good ol days" maybe. Nowadays, for economy, you'd better bet on the engineers in Japan or Korea, or Germany. I've seen people modify new model cars, and motorcycles, for that matter. Occasionally they'll make one a bit faster, but they NEVER make them more economical as far as gas mileage.

yes in fact they have If you ever look into trucks and see the ones lifted and gear ratio change to accomidate the larger tires often on the road the truck will get better MPG. I have seen it when the MPG was checked with a GPS. The truck in question had Elec. Ign up grade , gear ratio changes , and transmission tweaked. Before the mods it averaged about 12 MPG after on the road it averaged 18 MPG or better depending on where you were going Moutians vs beach .I would agree about Germany but the other two have a history of aquiring technology .

It was not a new truck, if you had to add electronic ignitiondid not change up graded to one that could be programed and it was not a Toyotano it was not . If you just put on big tires and change the gear ratios you're giving up something else, like high speed stability,no not if done correctly as a mater of fact it was more stable at high speed but then we never exceeded 120 low speed mpg, it wasn't any worst than stock etc. You probably also shortened the life of either the engine or drivetrainthe conversion was done in 2000 and the truck is still going strong it has long crossed the 100000 mi . You can call it stealing ideas, but often it is not. Did Chevrolet copy Ford when they built the V8?did yota not take the stove bolt 6 from chevy ? with out alteration ? not the same as building different v-8 with different set ups and head configeration etc. Harley Davidson tried to sue Yamaha for copying their Vtwin engine design. That went well: not only was HD not the first to configure the engine that way, but it was pointed out that with a single crankshaft, the engine HAS to be an inline or SOME angle of V. That's the only two ways to do it. The internal combustion engine has been produced for over 100 years. It is the most refined powerplant of all time. The chances of you accidentally discovering something new under a shade tree that generations of engineers missed is pretty remote. The truck you're talking about? All you did was get it a bit closer to today's trucks, and you see how much it improved? So how many new trucks are on the market with 512 gears , 8 inches of life and speical suspension , and over sized tires ? How many come from the factory with dash mounted controable ignitions ? And we use over the shelf parts we never claimed to be engineers , I believe it was you who thought it could not be accomplished Those upgrades have already been done to new vehicles Maybe the dodge power wagon would come close. You'll work awfully hard and spend a lot of money to get another 6 mpg out of that thing, for sure.or you could look it as a 50 increase in fuel savings , So what can you do to a yoda truck to get 50% more fuel millage ?

[rickt300]

Chungdo   I see your an avid poster here.  Great glad to see you have joined the best hunting, shooting, outdoor forum around.  But then again I get the feeling those 3 things arent why your here, Are They??  152 posts all in less than 2 months, All in 1 section  HMMMM  .   Yeah, obummer is that kinda low isnt he ?

Mostly , like at least 90%, I READ on this board. Though I've owned guns for nearly 50 years, and have hunted and shot for most of that time, I'm no gun expert. There are 'way yonder more people on this board that have a lot more experience and expertise on guns, shooting, and hunting than I have. (And a few that THINK they are experts!) Questions I've had along those lines always get answered in the discussion. I own around 20 guns of all types (Not sure if you count barrels or stocks on Handis and Contenders.), counting the black powder guns, and no, I don't know everything about them, so I read this and other gun forums. Most other forums do not have political areas. Politics is different. Everyone has opinions, and that's all politics is to laymen, like it or not. Debate is one way of keeping the mind sharp, and sharpens the use of logic, vocabulary, and reason. Also, I like to try to sift the facts out of the beliefs, for my own reasons. Do I think Obama is the best President we ever had? Of course not. But, the world has changed. The country has changed. Romney, and his party, are WHY Obama was elected in the first place. Almost nobody likes everything about change, but that does not mean it's not going to happen. Like the dinosaurs, if we don't change fast enough, we will die off. I'm neither Republican nor Democrat. I'm very conservative about some things, but very liberal about others. The Right took VOWS to not let this president succeed, no matter what. They've been largely successful, and they then blame the man for failing. That's dirty pool. If he had been given a fair shot at what he wanted to do, and then failed, it might be a different story. As far as I'm concerned, he gets another chance. It makes no sense at this time to go back to the righty policies that failed the first time. So, on the part of the board, which seems to be overrun by prejudices, I will call out the lies, contradictions, and inconsistencies in those prejudices.

Chung our president has succeded with his agenda already. You have to stop looking at this as a left versus right problem and look at the individual, his past, the present and the talking point mentality. The "righty" policies that failed the first time? Would you be nice enough to point them out? If you are looking at the Community Reinvestment Act which is the cause of the housing bubble and it's burst how exactly can that be considered a fault of the right? What "righty" problems are you blaming for failure? Take this out of the talking point category and explain for us.

[SHOOTALL]

what righty policy failed us ? it as democrats that screwed up loans , savings and loans , forcing loans that could never be paid back etc .

[mcwoodduck]

what righty policy failed us ? it as democrats that screwed up loans , savings and loans , forcing loans that could never be paid back etc .

+1.  So far the left are the ones that want to redistribute wealth.  And doing that they are screwing up the economy by making people do what they would not normally do.  Also do you realize the transfer of wealth mean you too.  You have or had equity in your house and now what?  you were getting 5% or more on a CD and now it is less than 1%  while costs are going up 5 to 12% due to the tax increases.
The higher prices equal less you have for a disposable income ( what is left once you meet all of your needs {food, shelter, fuel, clothing}) and the less you have to grow your wealth by investing, saving, or buying assets. 

[ChungDoQuan]

what righty policy failed us ? it as democrats that screwed up loans , savings and loans , forcing loans that could never be paid back etc .

No bank in the US has EVER been forced to make a loan. Deregulation, pushed by the right, ALLOWED them to make high risk, high interest loans. Since further deregulation allowed investment banks to buy up those bad loans from regular banks, defaults, which should have been expected, were concentrated into the top 5 banks in the world. Though they could have just sucked up the loss, and remarketed the loans, but instead were allowed to bill the FHA (The deregulation left FHA insurance intact, though it gave the banks the ability to make loans the FHA would not normally insure.) The big banks refused to allow money to circulate without a bailout.

[ChungDoQuan]

what righty policy failed us ? it as democrats that screwed up loans , savings and loans , forcing loans that could never be paid back etc .

+1.  So far the left are the ones that want to redistribute wealth.  And doing that they are screwing up the economy by making people do what they would not normally do.  Also do you realize the transfer of wealth mean you too.  You have or had equity in your house and now what?  you were getting 5% or more on a CD and now it is less than 1%  while costs are going up 5 to 12% due to the tax increases.
The higher prices equal less you have for a disposable income ( what is left once you meet all of your needs {food, shelter, fuel, clothing}) and the less you have to grow your wealth by investing, saving, or buying assets.

40 years of corporatism and deregulation, pushed by the right, has crippled the middle class. Bush's tax cuts for the rich pushed it over the edge. That agenda is completely right-wing, the party of corporatist protection that's all about individual profits and public risk. The Right also steadfastly refuses to admit that GW messed things up as much as he did, and that they have messed things up so badly that it will be at least 16 more years to fix the economy, and the blame is mainly theirs. That is why, in the time I have left on this world, I will never support a conservative. Period.

[SHOOTALL]

as part of the middle class I don't agree . The last 4 years has been the worst in my 40 years of working . You can post qoutes etc . I will reference my take home pay it is clearly a better indicator than BS spouted by those who are educators not workers .

[Anna]

as part of the middle class I don't agree . The last 4 years has been the worst in my 40 years of working . You can post qoutes etc . I will reference my take home pay it is clearly a better indicator than BS spouted by those who are educators not workers .

+1 , I've never seen lower wages like this in my life . A certified mechanic with all his tools being offered a job for what they said was a whopping $8.50 an hour ??
WHAT ? That's 1972 crap, an RN with years of experience not doing much better. And everyone says its the illegals that are holding down the wages, but even they are starting to complain about this.
Wages are going down, and everything else is going up.  You cannot get a one bedroom apartment that's even remotely nice for under $1,200.00 a month around here, do the math on a 40 hour work week and tell me you could survive on that by yourself without a spouse working also ?


And still pay for your gas to get to that job? No wonder people have just stopped looking for any work.
It isn't them being lazy or not some job they as Americans wouldn't take that's an old excuse.
But people shouldn't have to pay over what they make just to have a job. And no I'm not talking they are in debt or out living their lifestyle so don't go there.  They simply can not afford to get to work on money like that, NM is a big state with a small population. So a commute of 100 miles is not unheard of.

[justme]

Ummm,,, I could write a book here about the lack of knowledge touted as fact on this page.    Cuts, if the battery had 100% SOC (state of charge), where would the current from regenerative braking go? As for 50 mpg carburetors, dream on! Physics hasn't changed in a long time. Air/fuel ratio cannot be controlled with a carburetor the way it can with fuel injection, period. No how.=======By your reply you are waaaaay to young to understand the 50mpg carb. item.
No they cannot get fifty, at least not with a car that is not much more than motorcycle with doors but forties were/are obtainable.
The advantage to fuel injection is not mileage it is the ability to give similar power and mileage at any altitude; whereas a carb. would have to be readjusted.
If you ever drove a car in the mountains you would realize major power loss as you gained altitude and most did not find it worth the time or have the ability to rejet for the time in the mountains. Now if they lived there I am sure they probably knew how to do it.

 Toyota and others have produced viable hybrids without the governments money and they work just fine. The Prius came out in '01 and most are still on the road. No less than other '01 conventional cars. Very few have had replacement batteries. ======This link says you are wrong even though it is a pro-hybrid site, its number says 500 or so drivers a month have battery pack failure. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071391_life-after-death-what-happens-when-your-prius-battery-dies

.  But the real question one must ask is; How much gas mileage do you REALLY want? ? Cars could be much smaller, lighter, with many less creature comforts, and a performance level of, say, a 1975 Pinto. Would YOU buy one? ====== The Pinto had a one hundred pound tongue weight towing capacity.
 Toyota says NO TOWING with a Prius. Yes I would buy a Pinto over a Prius in a heart-beat.

I am extremely well versed on carburetors. No jetting scenario in a carb can match the fuel control of modern closed loop fuel injection, period. Just the simple fuel cut on decel of fuel injection would give it the edge, all other things being equal(which I can assure you they are not!). Can you name one car that ever approached 40 mpg with a carb during the era when the mysterious "50 mpg carb" appeared?  The advantage to fuel injection is to meet emissions regulations, which has a handy by product of better fuel economy. Later model carbs also had altitude compensation features, like in aircraft carbs.
500 batteries a month? Do you have any idea how many prius's are on the road? Care to find out and do the math and report back what percent failure rate that is?
If I had to tow something I would probably use a truck instead of a Pinto, your mileage may vary...

[justme]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car6.htm
This will get you started on the basics.

Fully understand it, but some don't.

If you fully understood it, you wouldn't have said the things you did.

No.......I fully understand it, but you obviously do not understand the principle,of a cut off sensor switch in an electric generating system....It breaks the circut.....no electricity being generated while it is shut off. (Jeeze! How hard is that to understand?!?!?!) Once the battery is at full charge, the genny can still be turning but not producing electrical flow. Much like a turbine in a power plant can still be spinning the genny but throwing a switch, cutting a circut to the brushes/armature in the genny, makes the genny quit producing electricity. So a genny CAN send electricity to a battery when needed, it can also be prevented from doing so when not needed.....in order to prevent an overcharge fer instance.

Cuts (Who's grandfather was the Super at the Bridgeport Power Plant in Iowa, and from whom he learned a few things) Crooked

Actually I DO understand. Explaining it to you has become frustrating....   If one was designing a car for maximum fuel economy, why on earth would you waste regenerative braking energy because the battery SOC was too high? You wouldn't! And they didn't! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, perhaps, your grandfather didn't exactly impart more electrical engineering knowledge on you than, say, the design team that made the Prius. I could be wrong, but if so, you missed your calling.

[justme]

http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-prius-reliability/    Just some actual data, not some silly opinions...

[Anna]

Then hurry, run out and by one before they are all gone! While your at it , you can have mine I won't be needling it .

[Cuts Crooked]

Actually I DO understand. Explaining it to you has become frustrating....   If one was designing a car for maximum fuel economy, why on earth would you waste regenerative braking energy because the battery SOC was too high? You wouldn't! And they didn't! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, perhaps, your grandfather didn't exactly impart more electrical engineering knowledge on you than, say, the design team that made the Prius. I could be wrong, but if so, you missed your calling.

Yes, you are wrong, on multiple counts.

[justme]

Care to elaborate? With all them smarts I bet you could teach us all a thing or two. I'm not going to go trotting out my resume, but suffice to say, if you knew who you were talking to you would say way less about the subject at hand...

[justme]

Then hurry, run out and by one before they are all gone! While your at it , you can have mine I won't be needling it .

I really don't need one at this point as the fuel economy of my vehicles is well within my means. I'm quite sure you don't need one either, but for those that choose to buy them, very few have regrets...

[two-blocked]

Let me guess. A Toyota salesman who sleeps in a Holiday Inn and reads Popular Mechanics! 
 
PS Thanks for the links, very interesting