Author Topic: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel  (Read 1656 times)

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Offline Cannon Cocker

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Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« on: October 30, 2012, 04:46:48 PM »
I have had this 3 pounder for 15 years and never could bring myself to paint it.  Now I want to gun blue (black) it.  I would appreciate any suggestions on how to make it even, dark black, and well....right.  The barrel weighs over 225 lbs and is tough to move around.  M and T, your barrels look gun blued, any suggestions?   

Offline Doc Brown.

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 05:08:06 PM »
Dark black would be awesome. I to am very interested in knowing more about this. I have a mild steel 1/4 scale 1841 going on a field carriage and would love to get away from paint.
 
By the way. How have you kept your 3 pounder from rusting in 15 years.

Offline moose53

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »
It is possible to do a pretty good job by hand if you get the right stuff . I did my cannon with belgian blue . After heating it up in a 55 gal drum I hand rubbed the bluing on . The finish didn't come out completely even but it looked like bronze and was very durable . The photo from OIT dorm was the first carriage but better lighting on barrel color.

Offline Doc Brown.

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 05:41:28 PM »
It is possible to do a pretty good job by hand if you get the right stuff . I did my cannon with belgian blue . After heating it up in a 55 gal drum I hand rubbed the bluing on . The finish didn't come out completely even but it looked like bronze and was very durable .

That looks great and that cannon looks HUGE. That has to be the best looking barrel machined from steel I have ever seen!

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 07:41:29 PM »
Dock Holiday, the barrel has had some bouts with rust and I have cleaned it up a few times.  After I started using Fluid Film rust and corrosion preventative I have never had a problem even though it's outside in the garage in Illinois where it condenses water on it every time the temperature changes (like when the door opens).  A friend in the lubricant business recommended it after I complained to him.  I use the liquid in a tin can.  It comes in spray but is not as thick and I thought it might not work as good.  It's a mess to clean off when you want to shoot it though.

Thanks Moose.  The barrel heating idea is good.  I know there has to be some way to get that dark almost black color that factory firearms have.  Maybe the missing ingredient is "the factory" but I don't want to give up that easy. 



Offline GGaskill

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 08:58:58 PM »
Industrially, the process is known as Black Oxide, and you should be able to find businesses that do that in the yellow pages if you are in an industrial area.  I would guess platers probably do it also (Here's one in the Chicago area.)  Pretty simple if you have tanks large enough to hold the barrel.  Ordinary bluing tanks are usually around 48" long, 4" wide and 6" deep (Brownells' are 6x6x40".)  If it would fit in there, a regular gunsmith bluer could probably do it.  Not worth your trouble to do it yourself unless you plan to get into the bluing business.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 07:50:02 AM »
  Ordinary bluing tanks are usually around 48" long, 4" wide and 6" deep (Brownells' are 6x6x40".)  If it would fit in there, a regular gunsmith bluer could probably do it. 

My gun is 40" long with a base ring diameter of 7" so I guess it wouldn't fit.  Worth my time is a relative term if it's for the challenge of doing it.  Most of my projects probably aren't worth my time. 

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 07:55:11 AM »
Some day if and when I get my gun books unpacked I have a couple books with the old forumlas for bluing......If I can remember the names of the books I'll pass the info along......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 08:58:50 AM »
     Cannon Cocker,   Oh boy have we ever been round and round on that problem.  We bought extra large tanks and fine quality Brownells blueing salts, all efforts, including going to a custom gunsmith's shop resulted in Purple Tubes.  We brought one down to Tulsa to show it to Dave McClain, the finest gunsmith/ custom riflemaker that we know personally. He said just one word, "Temperature".  Evidently, you just can't get the temp up high enough with standard or even size large conventional blueing tanks.  Following his advice, we brought our 45 Lb. Parrott tube and subsequently the 102 Lb. Brooke tube to a commercial plater who specializes in Black Oxide. 

     Speciality Plating, Inc. of Denver, CO does an excellent job and they do realize the importance of TEMP!!  First question they asked was, "How much does it weigh?"  Second was, "What type of steel?"  4150 is what we use on every seacoast gun we make and it's prehardened to 30 Rc  'C' scale.  Good luck to you!  See pic below.  Cost is modest.  Even with special handling ( NO Scratches or Dents) and operating special fixtures we made for them, it was only 100 dollars per Brooke tube.

Mike and Tracy


7" Treble-Banded Brooke Seacoast and Navy Rifle with high quality Black Oxide carefully done by Specialty Plating of Denver, Colorado.


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 11:35:12 AM »
Wow, M and T, thanks for doing all that work and saving me the grief.  My barrel is 1018 but that shouldn't matter.  Okay GGaskill you win.  It isn't worth my time.  Especially if I went to all that trouble to heat it up (insufficiently) and still had it turn out badly.  I thought this might be a long thread of techniques and member input, but it looks like it might end here with "bring it to a pro".

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 01:29:53 PM »
Here is the home bluing formula along with instructions.  The NH4NO3/lye chemicals give a really hard finish.  You will probably need a 50 gallon tank and an appropriately sized heater to do it.

You might also consider powder coating.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 01:31:28 PM »
The originals were painted.  Mine is painted and it a far superior finish for this application than blueing.

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 05:48:56 PM »
Thanks for the formula GGaskill. 

DD, I am torn about painting too.  I have had good results with rattle can finishes on other guns but thought I would try blueing or black oxide on this one.  You have to admit, the finish on M and T's  guns looks great.  You can really see the fine details and the edges are sharp.  Seems like it might hold up better too.

Offline Double D

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 03:30:21 AM »
Thanks for the formula GGaskill. 

DD, I am torn about painting too.  I have had good results with rattle can finishes on other guns but thought I would try blueing or black oxide on this one.  You have to admit, the finish on M and T's  guns looks great.  You can really see the fine details and the edges are sharp.  Seems like it might hold up better too.

Yes M&T  make a beautiful gun, without a doubt.  No I do not admit the finish on the SeaCoast guns looks great.  In fact I think it looks wrong.  Wrong color, wrong texture, wrong sheen.  I do know and understand why  M&T use that finish-they can't find a paint with the proper 1/6th scale molecules.  They see bluing as an acceptable alternative and I agree. 

As a bluing job the finsih they have is great.  As a compromise for paint the bluing is good. But it just is not the same as a paint job.

 


Offline dominick

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 07:18:21 AM »
I finished my revolving cannon and had the carriage and base powder coated a light gray and the barrel cluster coated gloss black.  I was not happy with powder coat on the barrel because of orange peel.  I sent the barrel out to have the powdercoat removed and I will look into black oxide. If that fails, I'll go with the true and trusted flat black paint method.  If for any reason I powder coat a cannon barrel in the future, I will not choose gloss black.  :(

Offline rludwig

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 03:48:48 PM »
I used a technique that is halfway between painting and black phosphate coating. This was a miniature firecracker launcher, so I was able to acid rust the parts by placing in a quart jar with a small amount of diluted hydrochloric acid in the bottom. I suppose the initial stage of a plum brown kit might work as well. The lightly rusted surface was then painted with the liquid rust reforming primer that uses phosphoric acid to convert the rust to black phosphate and seals with an acrylic. The jury is still out on long term durability, but it appears to be fairly tough.



Offline moose53

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 04:02:56 PM »
Any chance on a series of close ups on the firecracker cannon? Please!   8)

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 07:43:32 PM »
I've thought about powder coating before, but isn't it a fairly thick coating.  On a small or smaller gun, it seams like it might hide details.  I agree that it shouldn't be gloss Dominik.  I did a barrel in semi-gloss (paint) and re-did it in satin because i thought even the semi was to shiny.  I think flat is not enough though.

 I too would like to see the firecracker cannon closer.  It looks good in the photo and I like the idea of the technique.  Rludwig, what was the rust converter you used.  I have use one called Rust Mortimer on cars before but never heard of using it as a finish.  By the way does anyone know if there is technically any difference between industrial black oxide and bluing.

At what point if any did they start bluing artillery.  I saw a British screw gun, 1902 I think, that had bluing (very black color though).  It could have been stripped and re-done, but it looked original.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 09:28:28 PM »
At what point if any did they start bluing artillery.

Just a guess but maybe when they switched from cast iron barrels to steel barrels.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 03:42:45 AM »

 
At what point if any did they start bluing artillery.  I saw a British screw gun, 1902 I think, that had bluing (very black color though).  It could have been stripped and re-done, but it looked original.

Don't think it was ever common practice.  Artillery pieces are just too big for practical application. A blued gun this big would very difficult to maintain in the field.  Lot easier to touch up with paint.


Offline flagman1776

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 04:40:05 AM »
I want to try automotive POR 15 on a steel barrel when I get that far.  Must be paint top coated as ultra violet breaks it down eventually.

Offline dominick

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 05:35:49 AM »
I've thought about powder coating before, but isn't it a fairly thick coating.  On a small or smaller gun, it seams like it might hide details.  I agree that it shouldn't be gloss Dominik.  I did a barrel in semi-gloss (paint) and re-did it in satin because i thought even the semi was to shiny.  I think flat is not enough though.

 

Powder coat is very thick and will hide details.  Where I stamped my name and date is barely readable after coating.  Any sharp corners get rounded off with the coating and it will chip easy in those areas.  The coating is very difficult to remove if you change your mind and want to re-finish.  I sent the barrel to a shop that specializes in powder coat removal.  According to them, the only [cost] effective method is to burn it off in an oven.  Dom

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 08:40:05 AM »
    To illustrate that Mike and I think that Gun Blueing or Black Oxide is not the  Be All - End All  for cannon surface treatment, we will state unequivocally that for our favorite, drag-it-to-the-range every time cannon, black paint (satin) or flat black is our choice for a good looking, easy to repair finish on machined steel.  The two reasons that we use gun blue or black oxide (same thing) on our Seacoast Collection cannon is that our business is one of details.  If we cover up the fine details we create with any kind of paint, we will not sell these cannon at the price we have chosen in our business model.  Secondarily,  Double D. is right, we can't find any durable paint which will create a true scale surface thickness, much less stand the shipment and reshipment that some of these cannons endure going from one Civil War Show to the next for display purposes.
 
     Rather than blather on and on, I have posted a few photos of the markings that are found on the 7"Brooke.
 
 Tracy
 
 These particular markings are of the Preponderance (extra weight at the rear of this cannon to keep the tube in contact with the elevation screw end).  On this cannon tube the preponderance weight is 1,740 Lbs.  The 1/2" high markings on the original tube are   (PREP. 1740).  Our stamped characters are very small at only .083" tall.  Could you see these under ANY PAINT?  No.  Although these are in-process photos of unblued steel, I can say with 100% certainty that they are as crisp and visible on black oxided steel.
 
 
 
 
 The weight marking of 21,290 Lbs. is stamped (21290), on the original tube.  Scale size for this marking is also .083" high.  The super glue from fixture holding was wiped off with acetone .  The vent liner is shown 7.5 degrees to the right of the center line as on the original.  We used a stainless steel socket head cap screw which replicates the original steel vent liner and will stay shiny if the cannon is fired.  After screwing down tightly, the head was cut off and, with the surrounding area protected with a .005" shim stock piece, the end was filed and stoned down to the shim.  The vent hole is .079" dia. which is as close to scale as we can get and still fit commonly available 1/16" fuse.  The 1mm fuse we have used for our bb cannons is too brittle for regular use.
 
 
 
 
 The methods we use to create these markings vary.  Sometimes we use hydraulics for the large trunnion face markings, but mostly we use the old fashioned hammer and hand stamps as shown in this photo.  To make the markings as perfect as we can on this one, an angled aluminum block was machined to fit the breech strap recess and allow the stamp to have a solid rest at the correct angle to impact the segment of a spheroid surface at the rear of the cascable squarely.  Left and right squareness and spacing was laid out on the aluminum block with small machinist squares, 6" steel rule and executed with an ultra fine tip fiber pen.  Notice the heavy 24 oz. hammer.  For fine work, we ALWAYS use light blows from heavy hammers.  You have more control that way.
 
 
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline rludwig

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2012, 12:32:57 PM »
The rust converting primer that I used was the water based brush on "Rust Reformer" by Rust-oleum. There are similar products intended for automotive use. Unfortunately I do not have any closer images and the cannon was given to a friend for his 90th birthday.
It does tend to build up a thick rough coating which gives the appearance of weathered cast iron. I agree that this would probably obscure fine details such as engraving.

Offline Zulu

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2012, 12:48:25 PM »
The rust converting primer that I used was the water based brush on "Rust Reformer" by Rust-oleum. There are similar products intended for automotive use. Unfortunately I do not have any closer images and the cannon was given to a friend for his 90th birthday.
It does tend to build up a thick rough coating which gives the appearance of weathered cast iron. I agree that this would probably obscure fine details such as engraving.

Weathered cast iron?
Do you think this would work on a wooden barrel?  I need to make a wooden barrel look like it came out of a river for a customer.
Zulu
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2012, 01:26:37 PM »
Zulu, check out this site.  They have finishes and systems for putting metal patinas on any surface.  I found them when researching an aged bronze look for a cannon barrel. These guys would be great for what you do.

http://www.sculptnouveau.com/

Offline Onit12345

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2012, 03:46:27 PM »
Has anyone ever tried brownells classic rust blue? I've been thinking of doing my cannon with it



Offline Double D

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2012, 05:36:40 PM »
Small cannons should work.  Big cannon is going to be tough.  Nothing ruins a rust blue like excessive handling.  That is the problem with larger bigger barrel, they can awkward to handle.

Even the when you are done you still have the durability issue.

Offline Double D

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Re: Gun blueing a large cannon barrel
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »
Zulu, check out this site.  They have finishes and systems for putting metal patinas on any surface.  I found them when researching an aged bronze look for a cannon barrel. These guys would be great for what you do.

http://www.sculptnouveau.com/

That is the company that supplied the chemicals to make the SAMCC cannon look like bronze.

Before.



After