Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammers - Do they Work??

[seacoastartillery]

     This spin off from 5kwkdw3's thread called "Need Legitimate Help With My New Ramrod" is specifically focused on just one thing.  We want to answer GLS's question from that thread which was:  "Did the safety rammer work?"  We want to show by actual field testing if they work or not.  We don't waste too much of our time on scientific theories, we much prefer actual observations of real world experiments.  The empirical data gathered from these observations can be used as evidence to prove the case for or against the Shepherd's Crook Safety Rammer.  And now for some background info and the elements of which these tests will probably consist.


 

 I know that this should be in another post, but didn't the folks in the Civil War days use a small pole relative to the end of it which was bore diameter?  I was thinking that on a large piece of ordnance they'd have to use basically a log as a rammer.  I know I've seen pictures of crew's using a bore diameter mop on the end of a smaller diameter pole, but can't recall a rammer. And for more interesting trivia, when exactly did someone figure out to use a "Safety Rammer" type of loading tool in the first place?  Smithy.
 

      They sure did use a larger Rammer Head in wartime, especially the seacoast artillerymen who would have been stuck with handling a veritable "log as a rammer" as you wrote, if they didn't.  As to when someone figured out how to make and use a Safety Rammer, we really don't know.  Our SWAG would be that some reenactor group came up with the idea in the sixties after some of those terrible accidents which occurred during the observance of the 100th Anniversary of the Civil War.
 
 
 

 Has anyone using a safety rammer had a premature firing?  Did the safety rammer work?   

 
 
      Mike and I discussed this quite a bit yesterday, and we came to the conclusion that we really don't know.  We have not had a premature, thank goodness, but we are slightly disturbed that we "know" that the concept will work, but that we can offer no Empirical Evidence, (that capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment) to prove that a "Shepherd's Crook Style Safety Rammer" will work under actual field conditions with full powder and projectile loads.  You folks have no idea how much that bothers us.  Give us a week and after we make 3 exact duplicates of our oak or ash and steel Safety Rammer that we have been using for 5 years and haul our "Company Brooke Gun" and all equipment to the range, we WILL KNOW one way or the other.
 
      With slow motion photography we should be able to see exactly what happens to the Safety Rammer and a large block of soft clay to represent the loader's gloved hand.  The dynamics of the "Crook" part of the Safety Rammer under premature firing conditions are unknown now, but hopefully they will be clear to see, despite the smoke, 7 or 8 days from now.  Will the whole thing fly away as a unit or will it break up harmlessly as it pulls away from the loader's hand?  Who Knows?  Or will the handle slap the loader's hand between it and the cannon tube?  It bothers us that we don't know.  The clay block should show impact marks if any "slapping" has occurred.
 
 GLS, you really pegged our curiosity meter!!  Thanks.  We would, of course, seriously consider any specific methods that the membership would care to suggest.
 
 Tracy and Mike
 

[Zulu]

When I did my artillery school class, one of the test examples we witnessed was a standard ram rod left in the bore when a blank was fired.  It traveled about 200'  in about a hundred pieces.
Made a believer out of me.
Zulu

[Double D]

Now you have pegged my curiosity meter....have you ever seen any original loading tools for the big Seacoast Coast guns?

Perhaps Artilleryman can shed some light on the origin of the crook and Mississippi rammers.

Hurry up and get this experiment done.  It is interesting.

[subdjoe]

I guess the theory of the "safety rammer" is that everything will just fly perfectly straight out of the bore and that there will be no drag on the part that is outside being held.  Might could be, though,  that the "safety rammer" will bind somewhat in the persons hands and whip around like a scythe on the outside.

ADDED:  Oh...I know I'm going to that "special hell"* for this -

Maybe someone could suggest to Mythbusters that they test this!


*From the Firefly episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds"


    Book: If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
    ...
    Book: [walking away, pauses and looks at Mal] ...the... special... hell.

[seacoastartillery]

     Double D.  They have a nice display of seacoast artillery loading and cleaning implements at Fort McAllister in Georgia.  We took a close look at them and took lots of pics too.  They also have a terrific collection of projectiles there.  Our goal for completion of these experiments is one week depending on weather.

     

I guess the theory of the "safety rammer" is that everything will just fly perfectly straight out of the bore and that there will be no drag on the part that is outside being held.  Might could be, though,  that the "safety rammer" will bind somewhat in the persons hands and whip around like a scythe on the outside.

ADDED:  Oh...I know I'm going to that "special hell"* for this -

Maybe someone could suggest to Mythbusters that they test this! 

     Subdjoe,   We agree that you are destined to go to that "Special Place" for suggesting Mythbusters participation!  If you don't think we can conduct these experiments more completely and with a lot more thought, and fewer explosives, then we suggest you call them.  Before you do, ask yourself this:  have we ever sent a cannon projectile into a populated neighborhood to have it gouge a driveway, ricochet then penetrate a house and interior walls, exterior walls and exit, damaging roof tiles of a second house and then penetrate an automobile doing extensive damage to the vehicle, which only moments before had been occupied by children???

     As for the section in red above, well....that is precisely why we are going to all the work and expense of doing these experiments, one of which will be done with a blank charge to see what happens to the safety rammer and the "hand" when no projectile is present to raise pressures and gas emergence velocity.

       

[cannonmn]

I often use a rammer which has "U" shaped metal tubing for the handle.  The advantage of metal is that it would slip thru the hands without getting caught by splinters.  The handle would stay largely intact in case of a premature and I feel the worst that could happen would be something akin to rope burn from the friction, and if you are wearing a decent pair of leather gloves, there may be no injury at all.  But of course I support any testing to prove or disprove.  I don't use a wooden-handled shepherd's crook rammer due to the possibility the wood will shatter, splinter, etc. and take part of me with it downrange, whether the wood is in front of the muzzle or off to the side.

[seacoastartillery]

     Cannonmn,   John, if you could describe the construction of your "metal" safety rammer including tubing thickness, material or materials, radius of "crook", lengths, and hardware used, etc., perhaps we could duplicate it and include this alternative construction of the same "Type" of safety rammer in our tests. 

Mike and Tracy

[GLS]

Really looking forward to the test results. I just look at the hook and think of the physics if fired and it just did not seem good.

[GGaskill]

The angular divergence versus parallelism will also be of interest.

[Doc Brown.]

Are you going to make a crash test dummy for this. Looking forward to that and seeing its hands.
 
My theory is the ramrod will shoot out and take to the air like a boomer rang and come back and hit you in the head. 

[Artilleryman]

Now you have pegged my curiosity meter....have you ever seen any original loading tools for the big Seacoast Coast guns?

Perhaps Artilleryman can shed some light on the origin of the crook and Mississippi rammers.

Hurry up and get this experiment done.  It is interesting.

I am unaware of any use of the crook or Mississippi type rammers being used during the Civil War.  None of the Civil War period manuals that I have make any reference to them.  I would think that the crook type of rammer would have been considered unwieldy by the military.  Both of these types may be more modern in origin. 

My thought (and practice) is that it is extremely important to go through all of the steps of the loading process very carefully.  Clearing the vent and then thumbing the vent with a vent stall through the rest of the cleaning and loading process, removing cartridge bag remnants, damp sponging and dry sponging, seating the powder charge without rupturing the cartridge using a straight pole, seating the projectile without hammering on it.  All of this should be done at a deliberate pace without hurrying. 

[rifleshooter2]

I guess the theory of the "safety rammer" is that everything will just fly perfectly straight out of the bore and that there will be no drag on the part that is outside being held.  Might could be, though,  that the "safety rammer" will bind somewhat in the persons hands and whip around like a scythe on the outside.

ADDED:  Oh...I know I'm going to that "special hell"* for this -

Maybe someone could suggest to Mythbusters that they test this!


*From the Firefly episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds"


    Book: If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of Hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.
    ...
    Book: [walking away, pauses and looks at Mal] ...the... special... hell.

Not to get off topic but,
 Firefly quotes and Cannon stuff have I have died and gone to heaven

[boomerralph]

I have seen a premature at a reenactment which resulted in extensive hand damage to the rammer while using a "missippi" style ramrod. Accident investigation found:
1.  Loading and firing too fast. (one to 2 shots/minute from video)
2.  Thumbstall very stiff, and was incapable of sealing the vent.
3.  It was surmised that the rammer had his thumb wrapped around the ramrod at the time of the premature.  Thumb MUST BE ALONG the rammer, not wrapped.
As has been said 3 strikes and you are out!!
 
Very interested in seeing your research.  Thanks for your efforts.

[subdjoe]

   
     Subdjoe,   We agree that you are destined to go to that "Special Place" for suggesting Mythbusters participation!  If you don't think we can conduct these experiments more completely and with a lot more thought, and fewer explosives, then we suggest you call them.
     

Oh...I KNOW you would do better than MB would do.  Still, it might be, um, interesting, yeah...interesting, to see all the ways they would come up with that it should not be done.

[Zulu]

Now you have pegged my curiosity meter....have you ever seen any original loading tools for the big Seacoast Coast guns?

Perhaps Artilleryman can shed some light on the origin of the crook and Mississippi rammers.

Hurry up and get this experiment done.  It is interesting.

I am unaware of any use of the crook or Mississippi type rammers being used during the Civil War.  None of the Civil War period manuals that I have make any reference to them.  I would think that the crook type of rammer would have been considered unwieldy by the military.  Both of these types may be more modern in origin. 

My thought (and practice) is that it is extremely important to go through all of the steps of the loading process very carefully.  Clearing the vent and then thumbing the vent with a vent stall through the rest of the cleaning and loading process, removing cartridge bag remnants, damp sponging and dry sponging, seating the powder charge without rupturing the cartridge using a straight pole, seating the projectile without hammering on it.  All of this should be done at a deliberate pace without hurrying.

Artilleryman,
I agree with you.  There is a reason all the safety courses I have taken preach the proper way to clean a bore between shots.
I could never say anything negative about someone wanting to do something even more safely, but where should we draw the line?  Helmets?
Zulu

[Cat Whisperer]

I think with the proper research behind it, that this could be developed into a standard load for assaulting Fort Pallet.

[buzz36]

I think on of the sponsers make the U of the crook part i going to locate them as i want to make one witha wood rammer for the barrel and a copper tube  of the wood for the side you hang onto
i beleave in that anything one can do to stay from out front of your barrel is a good thing

[Double D]

 
My thought (and practice) is that it is extremely important to go through all of the steps of the loading process very carefully.  Clearing the vent and then thumbing the vent with a vent stall through the rest of the cleaning and loading process, removing cartridge bag remnants, damp sponging and dry sponging, seating the powder charge without rupturing the cartridge using a straight pole, seating the projectile without hammering on it.  All of this should be done at a deliberate pace without hurrying.

Norm, this caught my eye.  The rammer is a straight parallel sided pole for pushing charges and projectiles down the bore, is that correct?  I think some folks thing the the rammer has a bore size head and smaller shaft.   

[cannonmn]

Cannonmn, John, if you could describe the construction of your "metal" safety rammer including tubing thickness, material or materials, radius of "crook", lengths, and hardware used, etc., perhaps we could duplicate it and include this alternative construction of the same "Type" of safety rammer in our tests.

Will work on gettng photos and measurements asap.

[Artilleryman]

 
My thought (and practice) is that it is extremely important to go through all of the steps of the loading process very carefully.  Clearing the vent and then thumbing the vent with a vent stall through the rest of the cleaning and loading process, removing cartridge bag remnants, damp sponging and dry sponging, seating the powder charge without rupturing the cartridge using a straight pole, seating the projectile without hammering on it.  All of this should be done at a deliberate pace without hurrying.

Norm, this caught my eye.  The rammer is a straight parallel sided pole for pushing charges and projectiles down the bore, is that correct?  I think some folks thing the the rammer has a bore size head and smaller shaft.

Yes, We use a plain pole for our 10 pdr Parrott to ram cartridges and projectiles.  This not historically correct, but it is safer (hopefully injuries if the worst happened would be less severe) in my opinion.  However, we use a Mississippi style rammer for the large bore 12 pdr Napoleon since is is difficult to push a cartridge or projectile with a relatively small diameter pole in such a large bore.  The use of a rammer without a head or a Mississippi type rammer is part of the ACWSA and NSSA rules.

[KABAR2]

 Shepherd's crook rammers are a good idea, I think that no matter what kind of rammer used there will be some damage to the hand, the standard rammer will take your hand with it.... the cone shape may leave your hand behind but I fear it will still have torn ligaments etc...... the speed at which it is being expelled is what does the damage, your first instinct when the rammer starts moving is to grab tight and stop it..... the shepherds crook will leave the hand but again one's instinct is to grab hold so physics will take over and it will leave your hand but it may still do some damage....but out of all of them it would be the safest.

[cannonmn]

My "safety rammer" is 52 in. long, handle is 21 in. long, material is 7/8" electrical conduit (galvanized steel.)  Head is a re-utilized, light-metal "distributor" from inside a 105mm white phosphorous projectile.  The head certainly isn't ideal, it was just lying there on the shelf when I needed a ramrod head, so it became one.  I have used this quite a bit, shooting smaller guns and howitzers, and I like it.  Cost of materials for this was around $5., maybe less, can't recall, and construction time was about 2 hrs., mostly spent finding hardware in our junk boxes, to fit the head to the shaft.
 

 

 

 

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks John, your description, pics and dimensional info will make duplicating this Safety Rammer version fairly easy to make.  As for the rammer head, we'll just go out to the bunker and grab one of our surplus 105 white phosphorous rounds and disassemble it.  The willie peter we can put aside for the next 4th of July! 

Thank you again.  This version will be incorporated into the tests.

Tracy

[Double D]

I don't think I would want be holding on to that conduit safety rammer whena  charge went off.  The concussion  would probably shatter your hand.

[cannonmn]

I don't think I would want be holding on to that conduit safety rammer whena charge went off. The concussion would probably shatter your hand.

Thanks DD.  I'll wear hockey gloves from now on.

[Double D]

Gloves at least, welders gloves best.

[5kwkdw3]

I'm curious about the "clay block" as an example of a loader's (is it the #1 man?) hands and his grasp on the ramrod during an abnormal firing of the piece.  One you'd have to have the crook in the rammer parallel to the bore.  No angles, no degrees off parallel since the rod will theoretically shoot straight out of the bore.  If it does indeed do this then any angle one has in the crook portion of the ramrod will tear a healthy chunk of clay out indicating a catastrophic failure when in reality it would have simply slipped out the the operator's hands.  The other thing is that I imagine that the clay will be packed fairly tightly around the end of the crook.  Again, if it were a live operator, at the sound of the gun going off he'd at least get a start at letting go.  True, he might not get there, but I'd bet that his grip would be less than that of a hold to load the gun.  I don't know how you'd duplicate these differences other than the MythBuster angle, but they'd probably use their dummy instead of a live person anyway.  Smithy.

[subdjoe]

I'm curious about the "clay block" as an example of a loader's (is it the #1 man?) hands and his grasp on the ramrod during an abnormal firing of the piece.  One you'd have to have the crook in the rammer parallel to the bore.  No angles, no degrees off parallel since the rod will theoretically shoot straight out of the bore.  If it does indeed do this then any angle one has in the crook portion of the ramrod will tear a healthy chunk of clay out indicating a catastrophic failure when in reality it would have simply slipped out the the operator's hands.  The other thing is that I imagine that the clay will be packed fairly tightly around the end of the crook. Again, if it were a live operator, at the sound of the gun going off he'd at least get a start at letting go.  True, he might not get there, but I'd bet that his grip would be less than that of a hold to load the gun.  I don't know how you'd duplicate these differences other than the MythBuster angle, but they'd probably use their dummy instead of a live person anyway.  Smithy.

The time for the charge to go off and the rammer to exit the barrel would be way under human reaction time. 

[Victor3]

 I use a straight dowel, pushing the charge down and tapping it lightly in place with the head of a rawhide mallet. Only time my fingers are in line with the bore is when I'm starting the charge/dowel at the muzzle.
 
 M&T,
 
 A variation you might consider testing is a straight 1" hardwood dowel for the actuall rammer with a 1" 90 degree copper elbow fitting glued to the end. Then glue in a short (say 8") length of 1" dia balsa wood for a handle. I'm thinking that upon firing, the balsa would simply snap at the fitting, leaving your clay hand without injury. You could probably get the same result using soft pine by filing a notch in the wood near the joint, ensuring that it would break at that point.

[KABAR2]

On the subject of gloves..... I had an opertunity to speak to a man who lost his hand while loading a reproduction Lapan Rev. War 6 pndr he believes that the gaunlets he was wearing may have contributed to losing his hand as the glove created more friction than would have been caused bare handed..... he also believes it may have made no differance gloved or not.... again his first instinct was to grab tight on the rammer......